Who knows the story behind Gordon Ryan?

[JoelThomas]

it means that the best athletes of any kind DO NOT LOOK AT OR ENTER MMA

Man, you can keep repeating this, but you have absolutely no evidence for it. Your reasons for believing--as you've more or less outed--are political and emotional. You can imagine all day that guys with "lateral quickness" and such are somehow superhumans, but in reality they're just good football players. That's why they play football. There are a legion of people that run faster, jump higher, and lift heavier than any given football/basketball/soccer player. There is nothing about the inclusion of an inflated ball and money that could take these people away from the sports they choose. The real world is full of talented people who *could* earn a ton of money doing something they're talented at, and choose not to, because they don't want it. If you spend any time in the work force or on the mats, you realize this.

 

[JoelThomas]

How frequently though do those talents get to the next level at a big name gym? That's the pertinent question.

Lawler's run after going to ATT was scary.

Hard to track though because of the number of factors. Infrequency of fights, injuries, match-making, &c.

 

[jack36767]

Man, you can keep repeating this, but you have absolutely no evidence for it. Your reasons for believing--as you've more or less outed--are political and emotional. You can imagine all day that guys with "lateral quickness" and such are somehow superhumans, but in reality they're just good football players. That's why they play football. There are a legion of people that run faster, jump higher, and lift heavier than any given football/basketball/soccer player. There is nothing about the inclusion of an inflated ball and money that could take these people away from the sports they choose. The real world is full of talented people who *could* earn a ton of money doing something they're talented at, and choose not to, because they don't want it. If you spend any time in the work force or on the mats, you realize this.

Lol I wrestled in college, trained Bjj for almost 7 years and coach and have worked a plethora of jobs to make ends meet I’m well aware “that not all talented people live up to their potential”... Jesus. I’m not some SJW, and I’m not some “former high school football player dissing on the hipsters” like you seem to think I am

The difference between me and you is I’ve been around coaching and athletes not in a Bjj, mma or hipster sport gym beyond my playing high school. It’s my experience most Bjj people and the type who argue this stuff haven’t really been involved or around with sports not Bjj/mma or hipster like rock climbing beyond high school. And when did I say “superhuman”? Oh yeah

Nor is it all “political and emotional” the things I said about poverty were separate, the only way the poverty issue relates to my original point is that there are less people in Bjj due to the cost compared to other sports. My opinions of gentrification are not related to my point about barely any real athletes enter Bjj for a plethora of reasons. And yes money and the potential for it highly influences the decisions a lot of athletes make.

And yes.. I do have evidence.. simple numbers of participants of athletes in the actual sports themselves.

But hey, you know what, you’re right, you’ve convinced me, a bunch more people with the same type of natural gifts and builds as a Marcelo, Buchecha, Terere, BJ Penn, Roldolfo, etc. entering Bjj with massive financial incentives won’t do well in Bjj and have success quickly. Because it’s too complex for them and they aren’t tough enough for all of them. And of course money doesn’t play a factor... no Bjj players or wrestlers have left their preferred sport to mma because they didn’t get pai... oh wait. Shrug

But eh me just a emotional sjw

 

[yetanother]

But hey, you know what, you’re right, you’ve convinced me, a bunch more people with the same type of natural gifts and builds as a Roldolfo, etc. e

I would hesitate to call Rodolfos build natural.

 

[yetanother]

The real world is full of talented people who *could* earn a ton of money doing something they're talented at, and choose not to, because they don't want it.

Do you think that if BJJ comps where giving out NFL kind of money and olympic medals it wouldn't attract in a lot more guys and girls really suited for grappling?
I doubt every hulking brain damaged guy from the NFL would be the best fit, but I'm sure Jordan Burroughs (or the second best guy who can't make the world team because Jordan is there) would pick up the berimbolo quickly if he had the right motivation.

 

[jack36767]

Do you think that if BJJ comps where giving out NFL kind of money and olympic medals it wouldn't attract in a lot more guys and girls really suited for grappling?
I doubt every hulking brain damaged guy from the NFL would be the best fit, but I'm sure Jordan Burroughs (or the second best guy who can't make the world team because Jordan is there) would pick up the berimbolo quickly if he had the right motivation.

I didn’t do a good job articulating it like this and I forgot how your typical Bjj person would look at football and focus on that more than the actual point

 

[JoelThomas]

Do you think that if BJJ comps where giving out NFL kind of money and olympic medals it wouldn't attract in a lot more guys and girls really suited for grappling?
I doubt every hulking brain damaged guy from the NFL would be the best fit, but I'm sure Jordan Burroughs (or the second best guy who can't make the world team because Jordan is there) would pick up the berimbolo quickly if he had the right motivation.

They'd attract a lot more guys. Would there necessarily be a higher quantity of gifted people competing? Obviously. Would any of these people be exceptionally more gifted than the top people already in the sport? There's no reason for believing so. Again, if money was what attracted talent, every research mathematician would be counting cards.

For what it's worth:

[QUOTE="jack36767, post: 134273933, member: 447895"}]
Wrestling in the US the majority of the time gets third tier or lower athletes. [/QUOTE]

If I'm posting on Sherdog, there's a good chance I'm drunk, and mad someone said something this stupid.

 

[JoelThomas]

But eh me just a emotional sjw

Well, you got one thing right.

 

[Ryo]

Yes, I would absolutely say the top athletes don't go into wrestling. It's not even a dot on the map compared to football, Basketball or Baseball.

 

[jack36767]

They'd attract a lot more guys. Would there necessarily be a higher quantity of gifted people competing? Obviously. Would any of these people be exceptionally more gifted than the top people already in the sport? There's no reason for believing so. Again, if money was what attracted talent, every research mathematician would be counting cards.

For what it's worth:

Well, you got one thing right.

I’m the furthest thing from an sjw, especially because a lot of the athletes I’m talking about are white, black latino etc. but that’s not convenient for you. If saying poverty is an overriding issue that trumps everything else.. makes me one well.. just another example of the state of education in this country

I messed up the quotes thing but my point should be clear

 

[jack36767]

Yes, I would absolutely say the top athletes don't go into wrestling. It's not even a dot on the map compared to football, Basketball or Baseball.

But apparently more athletes of “any kind” entering wrestling or Bjj . Wouldn’t make a difference because the sports are too tough and complicated for dumb athletes

 

[yetanother]

They'd attract a lot more guys. Would there necessarily be a higher quantity of gifted people competing? Obviously. Would any of these people be exceptionally more gifted than the top people already in the sport?

Nobody can predict how better the extra top tier talent would be.

 

[yetanother]

But apparently more athletes of “any kind” entering wrestling or Bjj . Wouldn’t make a difference because the sports are too tough and complicated for dumb athletes

Training BJJ and having to figure out yourself seems a different environment then having proper coaches and doing what they tell you.

 

[jack36767]

Training BJJ and having to figure out yourself seems a different environment then having proper coaches and doing what they tell you.

I had an.. interesting reaction to some inherent assumptions in this post. Lol. A mixture of confusion mostly, could you explain it more

And ummm you literally described Gordan Ryan.. a good athlete with proper coaching telling him what to do..

 

[NAKMUAY18]

Such a strange argument.
All the gifted athletes aren't in BJJ or MMA, they are in sports where they can make money.
Like wrestling?!?!?

 

[jack36767]

Such a strange argument.
All the gifted athletes aren't in BJJ or MMA, they are in sports where they can make money.
Like wrestling?!?!?

You are aware there are multi million dollar industries promoting other sports with millions of participants.. I can actually see why some would argue about types of athleticism, or ideal body types, or want to feel like they are the “toughest”.. but the amount of obtuseness concerning the money part is idiotic

 

[NAKMUAY18]

You said that theses beast athletes that you met in the weight room that are so incredibly superior were wrestlers.

Then you said why would they go to BJJ and MMA as there's no money.

There's no money in wrestling, so why are these super athletes there unless they just love the sport?

In which case, with the surge in popularity of BJJ and MMA, you just talked yourself in a circle

 

[jack36767]

You said that theses beast athletes that you met in the weight room that are so incredibly superior were wrestlers.

Then you said why would they go to BJJ and MMA as there's no money.

There's no money in wrestling, so why are these super athletes there unless they just love the sport?

In which case, with the surge in popularity of BJJ and MMA, you just talked yourself in a circle

Um no I was referring to other sports.. the big massive money sports. I actually very clearly stated I think the same thing would happen if you had those athletes go into wrestling as would happen in Bjj.. I apologize for confusing you. I would have thought the ensuing debate made my point clear.

You are the only person who has thought I meant wrestlers when talking about athletes from other sports. It’s whatever I’m over it, it’s clear most people need to think they are super duper tough and special rather than just train and have fun

 

[Rjay]

Yes, I would absolutely say the top athletes don't go into wrestling. It's not even a dot on the map compared to football, Basketball or Baseball.

Its more complex than that, what big money sport the average sized 5'9" American male going into? NFL or NBA? Especially those raised in areas where wrestling is everything and they start wrestling from when they're kids? You think Henry Cejudo isn't an elite athlete because he didn't end up in the NBA? In Australia, probably a plurality of the country's best athletes end up in Australian Rules Football, a sport that internationally most people haven't even heard of so local culture plays a massive part. Soccer players start very young, but if your parents don't like soccer and you have no interest in soccer, despite all the money possible and maybe having the potential to be the greatest ever, you're not going to end up playing soccer. But if you're in Iowa, you'll probably end up wrestling.

The simple fact is you can be a supreme athlete and not have size or body characteristics to play in many professional sports leagues. To use the Australian example again, different body types help determine if you end up in rugby or Australian football. And you can be the country's most talented athlete, if you're 5"6' well sorry but you ain't going be successful in either. Its hardly as simplistic as saying "you're a good athlete, so you'll end up playing in the NBA".

 

[QingTian]

I didn't read the most of the thread, but I think the key question is whether superior athleticism is as dominating as in other sports. I think it is not the case.

In football, your dash speed can be critical. If you can't run down the wide receiver, you are going to get scored on every time. You go from a close game to a blow out just on that one attribute.

But there is much less that kind of trumping attributes in BJJ, which even amongst grappling arts has the least amount.

BJJ is a sport where an office jockey like me can roll with someone like this pictured below, and we can have a good roll despite the massive size and strength difference.