Who Rickson Didn’t Face?

Oh my, another thread of revisionist history and opinions!

Without modern record keeping we do not know who Rickson fought outside his official late career MMA stats, and the few publicized dojo fights (Anjo, Duarte x2, Zulu x2), with the latter obviously just a sample of who he fought. We know he did not turn down fights if he was challenged, and had a significant part in the Luta Livre wars. The late career he dominated against relatively less competition, though always impressive against multiple opponents a night, no scouting report, and all but one outweighing him by 20 to 100 pounds all finishes. No one does that if they were protecting a legacy. Funaki outweighed him by 20 ponds and was 11 years his junior.

So a few benchmarks must be used to measure by

1. Rickson always beats Royce, so whoever Royce beat, Rickson would beat.
Royce would have beaten Saku if it were a standard match (Rewatch the fight its true) but it went for 90 minutes and I won't spoil the reason for the outcome. Royce beat him in the rematch. If Royce does this, Rickson does it 10x better. So Saku looses to Rickson.

Royce beat Dan Severn (one of my favorite fights back in the day) Rickson beats him easily.

Royce beat Ken Shamrock, Ken Shamrock beat Bas Rutten, so Rickson is 10x better than Royce.

2. Look at his skills vs the opponents mentioned.
It has been said a good MMA fighter is a brown belt in everything. Rickson was/is Blackbelt level in obviously GJJ (not sport BJJ which is not always a good transition to MMA/NHB), but also Judo, Sambo, and amateur wrestling. He could also punch.

Mark Coleman was a killer but he was susceptible to someone who could catch him in a transition to the ground. Rickson's a master in the transition, and unparalleled on his back. Either a sub or a sweep, which Coleman would not survive with Rickson on top.

Henderson also had a lot of trouble with BJJ fighters in that time period. Henderson is not KO'ing Rickson and can't just out wrestle him. The more he tries the more he opens himself up.

Oleg - Rickson wrestles him and subs from top. Renzo beat Oleg, Rickson beats Renzo.

Tito - as good as Tito was, don't see him taking Rickson down. Standing Guillotine.

Don Frye - some say it would go like it did with Amaury Bitetti, but Frye won because Betetti could not take him down. Rickson's takedowns are much more dynamic and varied, it would have been unlikely if Frye would not have ended up on his back at some point. Rickson Gn'P from mount.

Frank Shamrock - would be a good fight, but Frank's strengths are also Rickson's strengths and Rickson was stronger.

Igor - Man Igor was solid! Low center of gravity, lightning quick thunderous hands. Outweighed Rickson by 20 pounds. Would have been good.

Of course, no gloves or hand wrappings, with no time limits I don't see Rickson in his prime losing to anybody. Its like he was designed to succeed in that form of combat.
Your almost as bad as Fedor fans
 
Bas was the biggest one. Bas even called out Rickson in a Pancrase post fight interview (in ring) while Rickson was in the audience.
This was in the early 90s when both were in their fighting primes. Saku's challenge didn't come until much later after Rickson had already beaten Anjo in a dojo fight, Takada twice in Pride, and wasn't wasn't fighting regularly.

I know about Bas and all that but if there had to be someone he had to absolutely fight, it should have been Sakuraba since the unspoken rule is if you beat several Gracies, you have to be stopped. After Saku defeated Royler, Royce, Renzo and Ryan... Rickson was supposed to be the final stop, it never happened.

Rickson was already on a collision course PRIOR to Rockson’s passing but Rickson asked for too much money.

Technically, Ruas was in his age group but Rickson only challenged him during a dojo storm with a bunch of people, not alone and not on a specific date, under the bright lights.
 
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Only 1 thing:
Hickson was hespectin´Nakai & his infamous injury, was not goin´ full strikes on the ground to open for the sub...

That was cool and all. Nevertheless, that just made it a grappling contest with one guy wearing an eyepatch and it still took him 6 and a half minutes to beat Yuki in his own element. He was good, but people need to put some hespect on literally every other great fighter and stop putting Rickson over them based on what his brothers said he could do in bjj.
 
the correct question is: who Rickson didn't beat?
 
That threads are still being made about him in 2018 says a lot.

His mystique predates MMA altogether. Grapplers before MMA knew who he was.

We will never know to whom Rickson would have lost. He made sure to finish undeafeated, he didn't lose while he fought. And, aside from the one disputed loss in Judo to Ron Tripp, and as far as we know, he never lost anything else.

For his time, he was Fedor. I'd wager that many who competed against him lost before the match even started.

The man, he's legendary.
 
Well after he lost his son it was game over.

Wins/ losses, whatever, it’s the mythology that made Rickson a legend, not his in ring accomplishments.


Rickson by armbar.
 
Just because he beat his brothers at bjj doesn't mean he would stand up to them in a fight. There's a kid who I had to wrestle a few times, when I went to wrestling conditioning, a few years back. He out grappled me, more often than not, because he was just more experienced and skillful under folk style wrestling rules. After practice some guys started doing catch style wrestling with submissions and stuff. That was what I wanted to do in the first place so I joined in and I didn't lose once. I had like 11 wins, right there, in that like 15 minutes, before I got picked up. Me and that guy paired up twice and I put him down twice, in under a minute, each time. You can bet, I felt like Ken Shamrock (kafabe Ken Shamrock). I was on peoples ankles like crazy. I might not be able to wrestle folk style, but I can catch wrestle. Rickson might be able to twist and contort people in bjj, but he's 5'9, 185lbs, and few people are stupid enough to try to out bjj him or wear a gi against him. If you think he'd beat Sakuraba, I don't even know what to tell you. Ken sat in Gi having Royces guard for 26 minutes in the rematch so what about that? It took Rickson 6:22 to submit a guy who had already suffered an injury that would end his career earlier that night. The guy was also 5'7, a grappler (should've played right into Ricksons game), and had already been though another fight after the injury. Are you saying Royce would've taken more than 6:30 to beat Yuki under those conditions?

Rickson is a black belt equivalent in Judo, Sambo and a mighty good freestyle wrestler. All backed up by masters of the particular discipline. Also remember Rickson was a practitioner of Gracie JJ, not Brazilian JJ, where one is the self defense art that formed the basis of Vale Tudo, and the other a sport version with rules developed by Carlson. Gracie JJ did not restrict other combat styles (read Renzo's book about the three phases of combat and the need to know all three). Also, remember Rickson was a disciple of Rolls, who was the first complete martial artist of all three phases, and the champion of the family. All of Rolls students cross trained in various arts including Boxing. So your story is cool, but I don't see how that is relevant, old school Gracies were anything goes fighters, not locked to any rule set. Rickson was the best after Rolls died, so if Royce can beat somebody, Rickson would annihilate them.

As for the Nakai fight, if you watch the doc Choke, there is backstage discussion that Rickson should just punch him out and win the thing, but Rickson felt that it would not be honorable to do so. Rickson on his third fight on the night took it easy on him, and made sure not to injure him more. To Rickson's surprise Nakai was a bad ass and tried to fight, so Rickson wrestled with him a little bit, took him down, a few pitty pats and choked him out. Nakai represented Shooto, Rickson was not going to dishonor him in his own country. Even Royce could have punched him out, but I don't think he would have done that either.
 
Your almost as bad as Fedor fans
I don't see how somebody could be a fan of MMA, and not be a fan of Fedor? Its like seeing in a baseball thread "Babe Ruth fans". Fedor is not only universally respected, by journalists, peers, and well informed fans, for being the king of the toughest division in the history of MMA, but is humble and an overall nice guy.

Rickson is the same way. The Gracie's invented the UFC, and Rickson is the reason why there was such a thing as Pride. If it were not for Rickson there would be no MMA.
 
I don't see how somebody could be a fan of MMA, and not be a fan of Fedor? Its like seeing in a baseball thread "Babe Ruth fans". Fedor is not only universally respected, by journalists, peers, and well informed fans, for being the king of the toughest division in the history of MMA, but is humble and an overall nice guy.

Rickson is the same way. The Gracie's invented the UFC, and Rickson is the reason why there was such a thing as Pride. If it were not for Rickson there would be no MMA.
Fedor was not afraid to fight..

You can't compare rickson to fedor...

Rickson only fought if he felt he couldn't lose
 
Rickson is a black belt equivalent in Judo, Sambo and a mighty good freestyle wrestler. All backed up by masters of the particular discipline. Also remember Rickson was a practitioner of Gracie JJ, not Brazilian JJ, where one is the self defense art that formed the basis of Vale Tudo, and the other a sport version with rules developed by Carlson. Gracie JJ did not restrict other combat styles (read Renzo's book about the three phases of combat and the need to know all three). Also, remember Rickson was a disciple of Rolls, who was the first complete martial artist of all three phases, and the champion of the family. All of Rolls students cross trained in various arts including Boxing. So your story is cool, but I don't see how that is relevant, old school Gracies were anything goes fighters, not locked to any rule set. Rickson was the best after Rolls died, so if Royce can beat somebody, Rickson would annihilate them.

As for the Nakai fight, if you watch the doc Choke, there is backstage discussion that Rickson should just punch him out and win the thing, but Rickson felt that it would not be honorable to do so. Rickson on his third fight on the night took it easy on him, and made sure not to injure him more. To Rickson's surprise Nakai was a bad ass and tried to fight, so Rickson wrestled with him a little bit, took him down, a few pitty pats and choked him out. Nakai represented Shooto, Rickson was not going to dishonor him in his own country. Even Royce could have punched him out, but I don't think he would have done that either.

Some other fella brought up that Rickson respected Yuki's injury. Rickson seems like a really cool guy and all, but he was 5'9 and 185lbs and never beat anyone of note. The difference between someone like Rickson and Bruce lee is that mma didn't really exist when Bruce lee was around and that's the big excuse for him not ever actually fighting anyone, while Rickson was yet only competed a few times against nobodies. This is why I'll always respect fighters like John L. Sullivan more than the both of them. Both Bruce Lee and Rickson Gracie trained in a bunch of martial arts and even had their own yet never fought anyone (Rickson did but only a few). John L. Sullivan went in with no training or knowledge at all and fought over 300 times (although most of them where just town to town open challenge fights, he fought pretty much everyone who was anyone in his day). Two are Lions --- they look like they can fight and (likely) can fight, but decide to sleep for 20 hours of the day and just run off hyenas or lioness from food instead of hunting themselves. The other is a wolverine --- he looks like he can fight and most certainly does. Wolverine doesn't scare off smaller animals, it scares off bears from a dead moose (old video of that on youtube). I'm just tired of people putting this guy over actual fighters who really fought everyone put in front of them like Chuck Liddell even though he didn't take the risk or make the sacrifices. I mean, I could go 25-0 if all of my opponents are people who never fought before or just aren't that good. Who do you respect more? A guy who fights 100 men, loses 5 times, and fought other tough fighters or a guy who fights 10 men, loses none, and fought relatively unknown opposition?
 
Rickson is just a big mouth and would probably have lost very badly to the vast majority of ranked fighters.
 
Rickson fought between 1980 - 2000. The Gracie’s certainly considered him the best among them. Legends about him abound. No doubt, he was a badass. But who was fighting between 1980-1997 (we’ll call those his prime years) that Rickson did not fight that you believe either absolutely would have beaten him or probably would have or possibly could have.


Personally I think:

Coleman absolutely beats him.

Frank Shamrock, Tito Ortiz probably would have beaten him.

Sakuraba, Dan Henderson, Igor V., Don Frye, Oleg T. all could have beaten him.

Oleg, probably not.
The sambo guys had vulnerabilities to BJJ back then.

Hendo, probably not. He didn’t learn advanced submission grappling and defense until several years later.

Tito...maybe, but he got guillotined by Guy Mezger during your dates.
 
Everyone you listed would have ruined him bad

Mark Kerr started in 1997 and would have done whatever he wanted

Mikhael Illukhine would have made him into a highlight real submission

Volk Han would have given him another Sambo loss to weasel out of

Those guys and the three guys I listed would have beaten him so soundly that I don't think they are worth discussing as legit opponents

I think his level of opponent was more like

Igor Zinoviev
Ensoun Inoue
Mario Sperry (maybe too hard for any Gracie)

Could he have beaten guys like that ?

So says the Gracie hater.
 
Rickson is just a big mouth and would probably have lost very badly to the vast majority of ranked fighters.
your opinion as mine is that he was the best

even years past it fighters praise his skills
 
Fedor was not afraid to fight..

You can't compare rickson to fedor...

Rickson only fought if he felt he couldn't lose
i agree

fedor has no fear obvious in his fights
rickson was picky. Fought funaki way past it

both were but he waited
 
He beat Funaki who has some solid wins. Other then that yes its to bad we didn't get to see him against saku, Igor, etc

Funaki blew his knee out early in the fight and had already taken a lot of damage from fighting.
 
Rickson did say in interviews that he would most certainly beat Don Frye, Mark Coleman, Rodrigo Nogueira, and Fedor.

He did not say he would beat Brock Lesnar and Tom Erikson.

He said he would fight Mark Kerr in his dojo

His brother said Rickson would be able to beat Vovchanchyn but Rickson himself mentioned nothing about that possibility.

His brother said Rickson would submit Matt Hughes but Rickson himself didn't.

His uncle said Rickson would have no chance against Mark Kerr on the ground due to size difference.

He declined an offer to fight Sakuraba for PRIDE 9 OR 10 citing he has no charisma.

Dang, what did Grandma Gracie say?
 
Everyone you listed would have ruined him bad

Mark Kerr started in 1997 and would have done whatever he wanted

Mikhael Illukhine would have made him into a highlight real submission

Volk Han would have given him another Sambo loss to weasel out of

Those guys and the three guys I listed would have beaten him so soundly that I don't think they are worth discussing as legit opponents

I think his level of opponent was more like

Igor Zinoviev
Ensoun Inoue
Mario Sperry (maybe too hard for any Gracie)

Could he have beaten guys like that ?

Add Tom Erickson, Igor V, Don Frye and Bas Rutten to the list. Even someone like an early Tank or Goodridge would have a chance...if Rickson couldn't get an early TD or submission, they could easily KO him (see Tank vs. Hugo Duarte, who was heavily hyped coming into his first UFC fight).
 
Add Tom Erickson, Igor V, Don Frye and Bas Rutten to the list. Even someone like an early Tank or Goodridge would have a chance...if Rickson couldn't get an early TD or submission, they could easily KO him (see Tank vs. Hugo Duarte, who was heavily hyped coming into his first UFC fight).
Masa rickson fight . Rickson got hurt bad on feet
 
Add Tom Erickson, Igor V, Don Frye and Bas Rutten to the list. Even someone like an early Tank or Goodridge would have a chance...if Rickson couldn't get an early TD or submission, they could easily KO him (see Tank vs. Hugo Duarte, who was heavily hyped coming into his first UFC fight).
U cant realistically use Duarte as a measuring stick...

Puh-lease...
 
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