Who stands out as the real GOAT

GSP is the clean goat but Jones is the overall goat. Deal with it sherdog!
 
Am not impressed with your post.lol
It’s obviously GSP. ‘Mericans just can’t handle the GOAT being 1. Not American 2. Très Français 3. Wore those darn Vale Tudo style shorts (that all fighters wear now) 4. Could totally fuck your girl<NewGina>
 
Your GSP lost the first fight to him and cheated to beat him in the second fight. He was caught cheating and there isn't even a debate in regards to him cheating. The only thing the commission was trying to discern in that was whether he knew it or it was only his team that was responsible. Secondly, your GSP would cut weight to fight smaller fighters and only until recently, Bisping, did he choose to show some balls and fight a bigger fighter. Penn, however, won titles in two different divisions and tried to fight everyone regardless of weight. He is a true GOAT. I have it Fedor #1 and Penn #2. You can choose the rest.

Well, you have it wrong. Penn sure lost a lot of fights to fighters in a lot of different weight classes (and to fighters both bigger and smaller). I guess he has that going for him.

And yeah, nice try with the first GSP fight. Clear 2 rounds to 1 for Georges. And you can tell yourself whatever you have to about the 2nd fight but that was one of the most thorough dominations in our sport's history.

People have been forced to call it quits by doctors in between rounds due to injuries, but has anyone just straight up quit due to the crushing realization that they have absolutely nothing to offer their opponent in terms of putting up a fight? MMA's very own "No Mas" moment.

And greasegate is so overrated. For the sake of brevity let's assume his cornermen did apply grease. In the clip in question Georges is looking straight at the coach speaking, laser-focused on everything he's saying and oblivious to everything else around him. These guys always let the corner and cut men do their thing, blocking it out to focus on their corner advice. And if anyone has focus, its Georges.

Now, did Georges conspire with his team before hand? No way to know. And I know we're talking about BJ and not Anderson here, but I find it strange no one ever says jack shit about Silva independently scraping vaseline off of his face and rubbing it on his arms, chest, and shoulders right before the start of the round. A guy came over with a towel to wipe it off, but still. Silva was blatantly greasing hinself up, standing right there. Far more flagrant and egregious. As I said, GSP was likely not even aware what the fuck anyone in his corner is doing except fhe guy who's speaking to him.

BJ had absolutely NOTHING for Georges that night, and he knows it. Hence his historic capitulation.
 
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It’s obviously GSP. ‘Mericans just can’t handle the GOAT being 1. Not American 2. Très Français 3. Wore those darn Vale Tudo style shorts (that all fighters wear now) 4. Could totally fuck your girl<NewGina>
I think most Americans consider GSP or Fedor GOAT to be honest... neither American.
 
Well, you have it wrong. Penn sure lost a lot of fights to fighters in a lot of different weight classes (and to fighters both bigger and smaller) I guess he has that going for him.

And yeah, nice try with the first GSP fight. Clear 2 rounds to 1 for Georges. And you can tell yourself whatever you have to about the 2nd fight but that was one of the most thorough dominations in our sport's history.

People have been forced to call it quits by doctors in between rounds due to injuries, but has anyone just straight up quit due to the crushing realization that they have absolutely nothing to offer their opponent in terms of putting up a fight? MMA's very own "No Mas" moment.

And greasegate is so overrated. For the sake of brevity let's assume his cornermen did apply grease. In the clip in question Georges is looking straight at the coach speaking, laser-focused on everything he's saying and oblivious to everything else around him. These guys always let the corner and cut men do their thing, blocking it out to focus on their corner advice. And if anyone has focus, its Georges.

Now, did Georges conspire with his team before hand? No way to know. And I know we're talking about BJ and not Anderson here, but I find it strange no one ever says jack shit about Silva independently scraping vaseline off of his face and rubbing it on his arms, chest, and shoulders right before the start of the round. A guy came over with a towel to wipe it off, but still. Silva was blatantly greasing hinself up, standing right there. Far more blatant and egregious. As I said, GSP was likely not even aware what the fuck anyone in his corner is doing except fhe guy who's speaking to him.

BJ had absolutely NOTHING for Georges that night, and he knows it. Hence his historic capitulation.
Ok...as a cutman(woman) cornerman this is my input.
1. Vaseline is applied to a fighters face “raccoon eyes”
Style just before entering the cage. This is to prevent tearing of the thin skin on the cheek and occipital bones by the leather on the gloves.
2. Cornermen can appli more Vaseline to the same area(and over any cuts) between rounds. If you look at gsp corner man doing this, it was a tiny amount of Vaseline. 1/2 tsp max. He was not grabbing handfuls of Vaseline and applying it (In order for George Saint Pierre to be “greasy”his entire body to be lubed up to the degree that BJ Penn claims he would’ve probably had to use half a cup of the stuff and vigourously rubbed it all over GSP’s full body.
3. Corner man touched GSP’s neck and arms lightly after he applied Vaseline to his face. At MOST there was a tiny film of Vaseline on his glove. This was not intentional, he just didn’t think to take off his gloves.
4. Even if he DID purposefully apply Vaseline, it was such a small amount, it would have no difference in the outcome, as both fighters were already sweaty as F. ( anybody who fights will tell you that once you get your sweat on like that grappling it’s already slippery as hell ).
5. Bj penn was a sore loser who was throwing a Hail Mary trying to save face in a fight where he was having his balls handed to him.
5. In a grappling match, faces get smooshed. Any Vaseline thst was on the face is easily transferred to body parts because..grappling. What do all the greasing paranoid people suggest, showers between rounds ? Get a grip people.
 
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Ok...as a cutman(woman) cornerman this is my input.
1. Vaseline is applied to a fighters face “raccoon eyes”
Style just before entering the cage. This is to prevent tearing of the thin skin on the cheek and occipital bones by the leather on the gloves.
2. Cornermen can appli more Vaseline to the same area between rounds. If you look at gsp corner man doing this, it was a tiny amount of Vaseline. 1/2 tsp max. He was not grabbing handfuls of Vaseline and applying it (In order for George Saint Pierre to be “greasy”his entire body to be lubed up to the degree that BJ Penn claims he would’ve probably had to use half a cup of the stuff and vigourously rubbed it all over GSP’s full body.
3. Corner man touched GSP’s neck and arms lightly after he applied Vaseline to his face. At MOST there was a tiny film of Vaseline on his glove. This was not intentional, he just didn’t think to take off his gloves.
4. Even if he DID purposefully apply Vaseline, it was such a small amount, it would have no difference in the outcome, as both fighters were already sweaty as F. ( anybody who fights will tell you that once you get your sweat on like that grappling it’s already slippery as hell ).
5. Bj penn was a sore loser who was throwing a Hail Mary trying to save face in a fight where he was having his balls handed to him.

<WellThere>
 
Anderson and Georges for me. Georges is kinda hard to argue no matter how you spin it. People shit on Anderson for roids, but even assuming he was on them his whole career, something like 80% of his championship opponents were on roids/TRT
thats why all his opponents, and jones' as well got caught. wait.........
 
Fedor or Anderson
 
Well, you have it wrong. Penn sure lost a lot of fights to fighters in a lot of different weight classes (and to fighters both bigger and smaller) I guess he has that going for him.

And yeah, nice try with the first GSP fight. Clear 2 rounds to 1 for Georges. And you can tell yourself whatever you have to about the 2nd fight but that was one of the most thorough dominations in our sport's history.

People have been forced to call it quits by doctors in between rounds due to injuries, but has anyone just straight up quit due to the crushing realization that they have absolutely nothing to offer their opponent in terms of putting up a fight? MMA's very own "No Mas" moment.

And greasegate is so overrated. For the sake of brevity let's assume his cornermen did apply grease. In the clip in question Georges is looking straight at the coach speaking, laser-focused on everything he's saying and oblivious to everything else around him. These guys always let the corner and cut men do their thing, blocking it out to focus on their corner advice. And if anyone has focus, its Georges.

Now, did Georges conspire with his team before hand? No way to know. And I know we're talking about BJ and not Anderson here, but I find it strange no one ever says jack shit about Silva independently scraping vaseline off of his face and rubbing it on his arms, chest, and shoulders right before the start of the round. A guy came over with a towel to wipe it off, but still. Silva was blatantly greasing hinself up, standing right there. Far more flagrant and egregious. As I said, GSP was likely not even aware what the fuck anyone in his corner is doing except fhe guy who's speaking to him.

BJ had absolutely NOTHING for Georges that night, and he knows it. Hence his historic capitulation.
Wow. Eloquently put but complete and utter bullshit.

Penn was only one of two fighters to hold belts in two divisions for the longest time. That he did it early on proves how great he was. It didn't take him a decade to do it, GSP, and he didn't have to make massive weight cuts to get into those classes, McGregor.
That he lost a lot of fights makes no difference in that many of those losses came AFTER he won both belts. All fighters decline but some don't call it quits when they do start to lose a step.

GSP vs Penn 1, you, moronically say it was a "clear" 2-1 in favor of GSP but you forgot that he "won" a split decision so it wasn't clear enough for at least one judge but your opinion is all that matters... wait a minute, let's ask GSP his opinion... he says of all of his fights, his toughest match and foe in his entire career was none other than Penn. So, GSP and one judge in their first fight see it differently than you do.

GSP vs Penn 2 - White is quoted that night as saying, "they caught Georges greasing... he's done!" If you look up the controversy, the ringside officials were in their first MMA contest and didn't know the rules so they applied the rules that they were used to in boxing and just asked that the excess be wiped off. Had that happened with officials that knew the rules, GSP would have been disqualified on the spot. This is known by everyone involved, including the UFC. GSP dodged a bullet that night but Penn and his camp didn't let it go. The Athletic commission then held hearings to determine if GSP "knowingly" cheated. They didn't want to punish him for something that his corner did "errantly". Matt Hughes and Matt Serra both came forward saying that in their rematches with GSP, they too felt that he was more slippery than in the first fight. It explains why GSP was able to break through the guard of Penn and Serra and escape the clinches applied by Hughes so easily. However, that is all spilled milk, my fellow Sherdogger, the point is that Penn accomplished more, much faster, than any fighter in UFC history so for bozos who judge him by his win loss record, after the title in the second weight class, he had only one way to go and that was down.

Greasegate may be overrated to you but any Jiu Jitsu practitioner will tell you otherwise. If it was no big deal, then why would GSP grease in the first place. You almost sound like the jones fans who claim that he would have won with or without steroids but jones, himself, didn't seem to think so.

GSP cut weight and ducked Silva and a host of other middleweights that he should have tested himself against, whereas Penn would have gladly taken on Silva, Liddell, Couture, Tim Sylvia or anyone he could get his hands on. Health-wise, not the smartest guy but fight-wise, that is what will always make him one of the greats.

Again, you don't have to believe me, just look up what GSP had to say about Penn.
 
GSP is the clean goat but Jones is the overall goat. Deal with it sherdog!
you fucking crackhead, jon! I'm glad that you at least can now admit that you took the roids. Took a long time to reach this point but, damn, I didn't think that you had it in you to come "clean"! Thank you for finally being honest, man.
 
Fedor or Anderson
Wow. Eloquently put but complete and utter bullshit.

Penn was only one of two fighters to hold belts in two divisions for the longest time. That he did it early on proves how great he was. It didn't take him a decade to do it, GSP, and he didn't have to make massive weight cuts to get into those classes, McGregor.
That he lost a lot of fights makes no difference in that many of those losses came AFTER he won both belts. All fighters decline but some don't call it quits when they do start to lose a step.

GSP vs Penn 1, you, moronically say it was a "clear" 2-1 in favor of GSP but you forgot that he "won" a split decision so it wasn't clear enough for at least one judge but your opinion is all that matters... wait a minute, let's ask GSP his opinion... he says of all of his fights, his toughest match and foe in his entire career was none other than Penn. So, GSP and one judge in their first fight see it differently than you do.

GSP vs Penn 2 - White is quoted that night as saying, "they caught Georges greasing... he's done!" If you look up the controversy, the ringside officials were in their first MMA contest and didn't know the rules so they applied the rules that they were used to in boxing and just asked that the excess be wiped off. Had that happened with officials that knew the rules, GSP would have been disqualified on the spot. This is known by everyone involved, including the UFC. GSP dodged a bullet that night but Penn and his camp didn't let it go. The Athletic commission then held hearings to determine if GSP "knowingly" cheated. They didn't want to punish him for something that his corner did "errantly". Matt Hughes and Matt Serra both came forward saying that in their rematches with GSP, they too felt that he was more slippery than in the first fight. It explains why GSP was able to break through the guard of Penn and Serra and escape the clinches applied by Hughes so easily. However, that is all spilled milk, my fellow Sherdogger, the point is that Penn accomplished more, much faster, than any fighter in UFC history so for bozos who judge him by his win loss record, after the title in the second weight class, he had only one way to go and that was down.

Greasegate may be overrated to you but any Jiu Jitsu practitioner will tell you otherwise. If it was no big deal, then why would GSP grease in the first place. You almost sound like the jones fans who claim that he would have won with or without steroids but jones, himself, didn't seem to think so.

GSP cut weight and ducked Silva and a host of other middleweights that he should have tested himself against, whereas Penn would have gladly taken on Silva, Liddell, Couture, Tim Sylvia or anyone he could get his hands on. Health-wise, not the smartest guy but fight-wise, that is what will always make him one of the greats.

Again, you don't have to believe me, just look up what GSP had to say about Penn.
Are you a fighter? Grappler? Sweaty bodies are slippery. Imagine that.
 
Wow. Eloquently put but complete and utter bullshit.

Penn was only one of two fighters to hold belts in two divisions for the longest time. That he did it early on proves how great he was. It didn't take him a decade to do it, GSP, and he didn't have to make massive weight cuts to get into those classes, McGregor.
That he lost a lot of fights makes no difference in that many of those losses came AFTER he won both belts. All fighters decline but some don't call it quits when they do start to lose a step.

GSP vs Penn 1, you, moronically say it was a "clear" 2-1 in favor of GSP but you forgot that he "won" a split decision so it wasn't clear enough for at least one judge but your opinion is all that matters... wait a minute, let's ask GSP his opinion... he says of all of his fights, his toughest match and foe in his entire career was none other than Penn. So, GSP and one judge in their first fight see it differently than you do.

GSP vs Penn 2 - White is quoted that night as saying, "they caught Georges greasing... he's done!" If you look up the controversy, the ringside officials were in their first MMA contest and didn't know the rules so they applied the rules that they were used to in boxing and just asked that the excess be wiped off. Had that happened with officials that knew the rules, GSP would have been disqualified on the spot. This is known by everyone involved, including the UFC. GSP dodged a bullet that night but Penn and his camp didn't let it go. The Athletic commission then held hearings to determine if GSP "knowingly" cheated. They didn't want to punish him for something that his corner did "errantly". Matt Hughes and Matt Serra both came forward saying that in their rematches with GSP, they too felt that he was more slippery than in the first fight. It explains why GSP was able to break through the guard of Penn and Serra and escape the clinches applied by Hughes so easily. However, that is all spilled milk, my fellow Sherdogger, the point is that Penn accomplished more, much faster, than any fighter in UFC history so for bozos who judge him by his win loss record, after the title in the second weight class, he had only one way to go and that was down.

Greasegate may be overrated to you but any Jiu Jitsu practitioner will tell you otherwise. If it was no big deal, then why would GSP grease in the first place. You almost sound like the jones fans who claim that he would have won with or without steroids but jones, himself, didn't seem to think so.

GSP cut weight and ducked Silva and a host of other middleweights that he should have tested himself against, whereas Penn would have gladly taken on Silva, Liddell, Couture, Tim Sylvia or anyone he could get his hands on. Health-wise, not the smartest guy but fight-wise, that is what will always make him one of the greats.

Again, you don't have to believe me, just look up what GSP had to say about Penn.

1) You say that GSP called Penn his toughest foe and toughest fight (first time, I take it). You then use that as evidence to support your point that the (rightful) decision was somehow doubtful or unclear. In philosophy this is what's called a logical fallacy. Meaning that your argument is not a logical conclusion to the evidence/supporting statement that you provided. If GSP had said that Penn was his toughest fight, and he had no idea if he'd get his hand raised or not, then you might have a point. Furthermore, GSP has always been absurdly modest and heaped tons of praise on his opponents, especially after he beats them. Just another way Georges exemplifies himself as the quintessential martial artist.

2) You're quoting Dana White? Actually? This severely damages the credibility of your argument, not bolsters it. If I didn't have to work in the morning I'd find several examples to illustrate what I mean, but if I have to do that then you really don't follow the sport very closely. I mean....when has Dana ever been a reliable source for anything related to the UFC? For anything at all, really?

3) As to the severity and legitimacy of grease-gate, I'll defer to @Nurse Joy , as she both has done a far better job of refuting your claims than I could and is a far more credible source on the subject than either of us combined.
 
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I give Anderson a pass because he only popped after he got his leg snapped in half at damn near 40. We all know he wasn't supposed to walk again properly. He obviously started taking after that, first for his health and then for his ego.
quote-when-you-use-the-steroids-you-use-them-for-a-long-time-when-you-use-the-steroids-for-anderson-silva-106-85-31.jpg


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I give Anderson a pass because he only popped after he got his leg snapped in half at damn near 40. We all know he wasn't supposed to walk again properly. He obviously started taking after that, first for his health and then for his ego.
What a silly excuse. It was also the first time he was randomly tested in his career. What a coincidence.
 
Anyway it's either gsp or Fedor. Pretty subjective so it mostly comes down to who you like more. Imo gsp is ahead by a tiny margin.

Anderson and Jones are disqualified for cheating, like in literally every other sport.
 
Wow. Eloquently put but complete and utter bullshit.

Penn was only one of two fighters to hold belts in two divisions for the longest time. That he did it early on proves how great he was. It didn't take him a decade to do it, GSP, and he didn't have to make massive weight cuts to get into those classes, McGregor.
That he lost a lot of fights makes no difference in that many of those losses came AFTER he won both belts. All fighters decline but some don't call it quits when they do start to lose a step.

GSP vs Penn 1, you, moronically say it was a "clear" 2-1 in favor of GSP but you forgot that he "won" a split decision so it wasn't clear enough for at least one judge but your opinion is all that matters... wait a minute, let's ask GSP his opinion... he says of all of his fights, his toughest match and foe in his entire career was none other than Penn. So, GSP and one judge in their first fight see it differently than you do.

GSP vs Penn 2 - White is quoted that night as saying, "they caught Georges greasing... he's done!" If you look up the controversy, the ringside officials were in their first MMA contest and didn't know the rules so they applied the rules that they were used to in boxing and just asked that the excess be wiped off. Had that happened with officials that knew the rules, GSP would have been disqualified on the spot. This is known by everyone involved, including the UFC. GSP dodged a bullet that night but Penn and his camp didn't let it go. The Athletic commission then held hearings to determine if GSP "knowingly" cheated. They didn't want to punish him for something that his corner did "errantly". Matt Hughes and Matt Serra both came forward saying that in their rematches with GSP, they too felt that he was more slippery than in the first fight. It explains why GSP was able to break through the guard of Penn and Serra and escape the clinches applied by Hughes so easily. However, that is all spilled milk, my fellow Sherdogger, the point is that Penn accomplished more, much faster, than any fighter in UFC history so for bozos who judge him by his win loss record, after the title in the second weight class, he had only one way to go and that was down.

Greasegate may be overrated to you but any Jiu Jitsu practitioner will tell you otherwise. If it was no big deal, then why would GSP grease in the first place. You almost sound like the jones fans who claim that he would have won with or without steroids but jones, himself, didn't seem to think so.

GSP cut weight and ducked Silva and a host of other middleweights that he should have tested himself against, whereas Penn would have gladly taken on Silva, Liddell, Couture, Tim Sylvia or anyone he could get his hands on. Health-wise, not the smartest guy but fight-wise, that is what will always make him one of the greats.

Again, you don't have to believe me, just look up what GSP had to say about Penn.

I like that you defend your guy to the end unlike the sinking ship jumper Dozer or Toner or whatever he wants to go by. I think BJ could have been in all the GOAT discussions if he made some better decisions about who he surrounded himself with.
 
Ok...as a cutman(woman) cornerman this is my input.
1. Vaseline is applied to a fighters face “raccoon eyes”
Style just before entering the cage. This is to prevent tearing of the thin skin on the cheek and occipital bones by the leather on the gloves.
2. Cornermen can appli more Vaseline to the same area(and over any cuts) between rounds. If you look at gsp corner man doing this, it was a tiny amount of Vaseline. 1/2 tsp max. He was not grabbing handfuls of Vaseline and applying it (In order for George Saint Pierre to be “greasy”his entire body to be lubed up to the degree that BJ Penn claims he would’ve probably had to use half a cup of the stuff and vigourously rubbed it all over GSP’s full body.
3. Corner man touched GSP’s neck and arms lightly after he applied Vaseline to his face. At MOST there was a tiny film of Vaseline on his glove. This was not intentional, he just didn’t think to take off his gloves.
4. Even if he DID purposefully apply Vaseline, it was such a small amount, it would have no difference in the outcome, as both fighters were already sweaty as F. ( anybody who fights will tell you that once you get your sweat on like that grappling it’s already slippery as hell ).
5. Bj penn was a sore loser who was throwing a Hail Mary trying to save face in a fight where he was having his balls handed to him.
5. In a grappling match, faces get smooshed. Any Vaseline thst was on the face is easily transferred to body parts because..grappling. What do all the greasing paranoid people suggest, showers between rounds ? Get a grip people.
You are forgetting that it was the ringside officials that noticed it. Under the MMA rules at the time, a disqualification was in order for the amount that they found on his body. This was also that officiating crew's first fight under MMA guidelines and they handled the situation the way they would during a boxing match. Just "wipe the excess" off. Doesn't work like that in MMA. What was proven in court was that GSP, himself, did not cheat as he did not apply the vaseline and it was an "error" on his cornerman's part. They actually changed the guidelines for the cutmen BECAUSE OF THIS INCIDENT. So it was no "small difference" as you suggest.
 
Are you a fighter? Grappler? Sweaty bodies are slippery. Imagine that.
The officials in the ring "caught" him greasing. They handled per the boxing rules and not MMA rules. They admitted that they should have disqualified him but didn't understand the MMA rules at the time. The commission later decided that GSP, himself, didn't cheat and if his corner did, it was without his knowledge and they refused to change the fight to a no-contest. Vaseline obviously has an effect otherwise they wouldn't ban it.
 
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