Why do BJJ instructors commonly downplay Strength and Conditioning?

[rmongler]

I encourage conditioning certainly and strength as well but at a certain age you start to get tendinitis and other overuse injuries if you lift too heavy

the biggest long term benefit of resistance training (heavy lifting) is precisely in order to build up resilience, recover from injury, and or forestall ultimate degeneration of connective tissue.

 

[thugpoet]

Bjj is for the most part a skill sport. S&c can help bring the gap In skill levels but so will more Bjj training

 

[nefti]

Because for the most part people dont know how to do "strength and conditioning" . They think bro lifting st the weightroom and lifting like a curlmonkey is strength and conditioning.

Heck I have had idiots on this forum talk about how great the bench press is wtf.

 

[Julian Smith]

Because for the most part people dont know how to do "strength and conditioning" . They think bro lifting st the weightroom and lifting like a curlmonkey is strength and conditioning.

Heck I have had idiots on this forum talk about how great the bench press is wtf.

Do you not think that raw strength would be of benefit in a grappling situation?

 

[Balto]

The debate on the usefulness of raw strength in grappling tends to center around the fact that raw strength (as measured by a 1RM) almost never comes up in a match.

Most people, even in the lighter weight classes, will be deadlifting over 300 lbs 1RM within a year of serious lifting, probably sooner than that. This is more than most opponents will weigh even in the heaviest weight classes. Not to mention that technique usually involves lifting with the opponent's existing momentum, thus effectively lowering the lbs of force required to complete the technique to a number lesser than the opponent's weight standing still.

So the usefulness really comes from the correlation between 1RM strength and the ability to explode quickly. The same force that deadlifts a 300 lb barbell slowly can be used to deadlift a 100 lb barbell much faster. That's just basic physics (Newton's second law).

Humans aren't a physics lab though so these things don't translate 100%. I've seen research on soccer players that studied squat 1RM correlation to vertical jump height. The correlation was about 0.8 which is pretty high I think. So that would indicate to me that developing raw strength is still useful for increasing explosiveness in a grappling situation. Accordingly, I spend some time working on my max strength outside of BJJ.

There's still a train of thought though that the amount of effort and stress on the body it takes to develop that max strength isn't worth that 0.8 of correlation to more realistic grappling scenarios. This is because the recovery periods take away some potential volume that could be allocated to grappling specific training. Also you need to develop techniques that are designed to take advantage of your explosiveness. It won't translate over if you only ever use slow and careful technique.

 

[thugpoet]

Do you not think that raw strength would be of benefit in a grappling situation?

Anyone who says no doesn't know what they are talking about

 

[yetanother]

Anyone who says no doesn't know what they are talking about

Even world champions that don't do any S&C take steroids so being jacked as fuck isn't underrated at the high level.

 

[bobjones777]

Anyone who says no doesn't know what they are talking about

they're the people who complain most about that guy who was "too explosive" and smashed them

 

[asian-glow]

Because for the most part people dont know how to do "strength and conditioning" . They think bro lifting st the weightroom and lifting like a curlmonkey is strength and conditioning.

Heck I have had idiots on this forum talk about how great the bench press is wtf.

I don't know when this quote below was dated, which is to say that he may have modified or changed his mind since then, but Holt had some interesting things to say about the bench press.

"Bench press is an extremely useful exercise for grapplers. Neglecting chest, shoulders, and triceps as far as grappling strength goes is beyond stupid. Bench press is the easiest, fastest, and most efficient lift to stress all of your phasic and tonic motor units/motor pools.

If you look at things such as framing, guard retention, posting, active posting, arm positioning in guard breaks, flattening out an opponent, posture, all of these things heavily rely on push based dynamic movements and isometric holds/positioning. The most time efficient way to build this is by pressing, and the most time efficient press lift is the bench press."

Personally I've found that I am prone to injury in my upper limbs, particularly my elbows and shoulders. As a result, I add in bicep curls, lateral raises, DB presses, etc, in addition to my general workout. I feel it's made a worthwhile difference in their ability to take punishment.

Holt has a few insightful S&C posts if you are willing to look through his history. Granted I don't know how much of it will apply to non-elite athletes. He is both college educated in matters regarding health/athletic performance and really strong himself so it's interesting to hear from people who have hit the books and the weights.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Well strength and conditioning literally makes your capacity better, which would lead to better performances.

One of the key reasons for doing specific strength and conditioning exercises rather than spending more time just doing your sport is injury prevention.

In theory the best way to improve the strength and conditioning required for your sport is to spend more time doing your sport.

In practice, for most contact sports the chance of injury goes up rather sharply (either stress repetition injury or tired body moving the wrong way under load injury) when you're tired. That's where controlled weights/cardio comes in.

 

[nefti]

Do you not think that raw strength would be of benefit in a grappling situation?

Brolifting does not give you "raw strength" efficiently.

 

[nefti]

Most guys who think they know strength abd conditioning is taking about bodybuilding routines. Not actual strength and conditioning.

 

[nefti]

I don't know when this quote below was dated, which is to say that he may have modified or changed his mind since then, but Holt had some interesting things to say about the bench press.

"Bench press is an extremely useful exercise for grapplers. Neglecting chest, shoulders, and triceps as far as grappling strength goes is beyond stupid. Bench press is the easiest, fastest, and most efficient lift to stress all of your phasic and tonic motor units/motor pools.

If you look at things such as framing, guard retention, posting, active posting, arm positioning in guard breaks, flattening out an opponent, posture, all of these things heavily rely on push based dynamic movements and isometric holds/positioning. The most time efficient way to build this is by pressing, and the most time efficient press lift is the bench press."

Personally I've found that I am prone to injury in my upper limbs, particularly my elbows and shoulders. As a result, I add in bicep curls, lateral raises, DB presses, etc, in addition to my general workout. I feel it's made a worthwhile difference in their ability to take punishment.

Holt has a few insightful S&C posts if you are willing to look through his history. Granted I don't know how much of it will apply to non-elite athletes. He is both college educated in matters regarding health/athletic performance and really strong himself so it's interesting to hear from people who have hit the books and the weights.

assuming this is a correct quote . all of those things he stated can be developed more efficiently by the standing military press in my humble opinion.

 

[thugpoet]

they're the people who complain most about that guy who was "too explosive" and smashed them

Yea maybe. Generally Bjj is seen as in " equalizer " sport something that doesn't need strength or speed or whatever. But when a wrestler or someone with natural talent comes in and starts taking out the blues, people find excuses.

If you are 3x stronger then someone while they are around 1.2 times better than you at Bjj then your strength can have a great effect on them. Anyone who says different is fooling themselves.

 

[bowened]

A Jon Jones could beat 99% of all BJJ practitioners in a real self defense situation and he is a white belt.

Jon Jones can beat 99% of mma fighters (who also do S&C). white belt bjj FTW

 

[WarDronx]

I recently heard an interview of a football (soccer) coach regarding the matter of what to do in a preparation period for competition, more traditional conditioning stuff (running, weights, etc) or more sport-specific training. The trend (at least in that sport) that is growing is the sport-specific one. Simply more exercises with the ball. This doesn't mean they don't run or do some weight training but they try to develop cardio, strength, etc by doing more of the sport they are going to compete in.

Maybe something like this is the reason. Also, don't underrate the "fun" part. Doing something that is hard but fun will keep you doing it. For me, everything is hard but since i enjoy the time i spent there i keep going. I might be growing stronger, losing weight and improving my cardio in a slower pace than if was running in a treadmill and lifting weights but it is still happening while i am ALSO having fun with something. Even pros try to skip or minimize the time they spent on parts of their training they don't particularly like.

 

[Quebec Nick]

I recently heard an interview of a football (soccer) coach regarding the matter of what to do in a preparation period for competition, more traditional conditioning stuff (running, weights, etc) or more sport-specific training. The trend (at least in that sport) that is growing is the sport-specific one. Simply more exercises with the ball. This doesn't mean they don't run or do some weight training but they try to develop cardio, strength, etc by doing more of the sport they are going to compete in.

Maybe something like this is the reason. Also, don't underrate the "fun" part. Doing something that is hard but fun will keep you doing it. For me, everything is hard but since i enjoy the time i spent there i keep going. I might be growing stronger, losing weight and improving my cardio in a slower pace than if was running in a treadmill and lifting weights but it is still happening while i am ALSO having fun with something. Even pros try to skip or minimize the time they spent on parts of their training they don't particularly like.

Like Firas Zahabi says, you can't go full throttle all the time. Choose what's your main training and the secondary ones should be at 70%, it's still way better to do them at lower intensity than not doing it at all.

I train pretty much everyday, I was doing BJJ 4 times a week, doing over 30 6 minutes rounds of full sparring, after that I tried to run with intervals and trying to keep the same pace that I used to when I was mainly running. I was also trying to fit in some strenght training at full intensity because I did so few of them that I wanted those workouts to count.

I changed it up recently, I was just experiencing a lot of soreness and was skipping trainings because of it. Instead, I run at a pace that I'm confortable and my strength training is mostly bodyweight and injury prevention centered.

 

[Dirty Holt]

assuming this is a correct quote . all of those things he stated can be developed more efficiently by the standing military press in my humble opinion.

I had to review and use several studies in college regarding muscle activation both in my undergrad for human performance and my Masters. It really did change the way I trained.

Below is an article that has been reproduced several times about muscle activation of the shoulders, triceps, and pecs. They will all tell you the same thing: Flat bench activates the largest muscles groups in the pressing motion, both eccentric and isometric the most efficiently, while changing the angle and grip can activate the smaller muscle groups more efficiently. Anybody who has done BJJ and has had to frame for extended periods understands how important it is to rely on larger muscle groups compared to smaller ones because to put it succinctly, your arms will gas the fuck out.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...3/612650.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2a70aN3pLMXxIfFomgm8N_

 

[selfcritical]

Strength and conditioning is overrated

Maybe good for grappling but it slows you down when you're striking. As long as you're in above average shape and not weird in any way (super short, lanky, or lacking a limb) you can wreck most people with technique

Literally every competent professional level striker is doing vast volumes of conditioning. The strength work will be much less, but no shit a sport with no external resistance or load will be less strength dependent.

A lot of the this discussion is really half-assed because people are completely ignoring the qualification level of the athlete and the relative risks of different forms of training. A novice with no athletic background starting BJJ will improve from literally any physical activity as long as they get some sport practice, whereas someone like marcelo, Galvao, rafa, Roger......they are at the highest level of qualification for their sport- only highly specific training or bringing up specific weaknesses can improve them, and most things most of the time will fail to improve them or only improve them a small amount- even highly specific training. At that level fatigue management and specific tactics will often make the difference on competition day.

But you are not Rafa. You are not Marcelo. You are not Andre Galvao, you do not have their movement competence to be able to train really high volumes of BJJ in states of fatigue without getting injured. Unlike them, you have gaps in your general physical preparation. You may be held back from the amount of training you can do because your aerobic recovery sucks. Unlike in matters of technique, you cannot meaningfully reason from what they are doing right now to what you should be doing in any way shape or form.

If you just try to immediately train 3 a days 6 days a week and you are not in the middle of your hormone apocalypse, all you're gonna accomplish to destroy one or more of your joints.

 

[asian-glow]

I recently heard an interview of a football (soccer) coach regarding the matter of what to do in a preparation period for competition, more traditional conditioning stuff (running, weights, etc) or more sport-specific training. The trend (at least in that sport) that is growing is the sport-specific one. Simply more exercises with the ball. This doesn't mean they don't run or do some weight training but they try to develop cardio, strength, etc by doing more of the sport they are going to compete in.

Maybe something like this is the reason. Also, don't underrate the "fun" part. Doing something that is hard but fun will keep you doing it. For me, everything is hard but since i enjoy the time i spent there i keep going. I might be growing stronger, losing weight and improving my cardio in a slower pace than if was running in a treadmill and lifting weights but it is still happening while i am ALSO having fun with something. Even pros try to skip or minimize the time they spent on parts of their training they don't particularly like.

I don't know that you are interpreting what you read correctly. While I think sports in general are trending towards more "sport specific" methods of S&C, I think what you're suggesting is what happens as part of a training program that uses periodization.

More specifically, if the athlete is far off from a competition, especially in the off season, they will do more traditional S&C. As the competition approaches, the athletes will do more "sport specific" stuff, drills , etc - stuff geared towards enhancing timing and technique rather than raw attributes so that they are technically sharp and not physically fatigued for their upcoming competition.

My point is that I think each type of training has a purpose depending on what phase of your periodization you are on.

Even understanding this, however, I don't know that it would be particularly useful for people who don't train full time. Assuming one could even handle the training volume, I think programs at the elite level are often heavily individualized. They may be neither useful nor even applicable, perhaps even harmful, to regular dudes..

I have no background in S&C. Just a dude on the internet talking shit.