Why do BJJ instructors commonly downplay Strength and Conditioning?

I agree that strength and conditioning aren't given enough focus by BJJ instructors. They definitely matter. I'm not sure what the reason is. It could be that BJJ was sold back in the day as something that helps a smaller opponent defeat a bigger one. I never understood this. Any effective martial art (e.g. Muay Thai) will help a smaller practitioner defeat a larger less skilled one. That doesn't seem unique to BJJ. That principle also has limits. I would probably get smoked by an NFL linebacker who has zero BJJ experience because they're so physically superior, even though I'm fairly well conditioned myself. Strength and conditioning helps. For those beginners who ask me about competing in BJJ tournaments, I tell them to train more BJJ but also begin a serious strength and conditioning program with running 3 to 5 miles most days of the week and do some strength training with bodyweight exercises like dips, pull ups, chin ups, various push ups, core work, etc. I can tell that some of my training partners have the skills but physically are not strong enough and feel like training with the women because they've been couch potatoes for 20 or 30 years. We've got this one girl who is just average sized (~130 lbs) but just very fit because she's been a sporty athletic girl her whole life, and she actually feels stronger than some of the guys I train with who have never done anything athletic and BJJ is their first sport ever.
 
beat...people...up? said:
I think the reason for this is that newbies to BJJ still want to cling to the previous routine that they had, workout-wise. I certainly did this for quite some time. I would run before class and compromise my energy for rolling, or lift legs the day before we did takedowns because I didn't know any better. Also, there's this weird phase where, as a beginner, you can't get as good a workout from rolling as you'll be able to when you have a bigger bag of skills, so where are you supposed to get the conditioning?
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I used to do the same. Now I focus on different things at different times.

When I focus on BJJ my strength training is lower volume and my conditioning is easy. This is also when I feel the best on the mats. 3 days a week of approximately 1:30-2:00 classes/open mat is best for me. That's pretty low volume, but I work a physical job and shift work. My technique is good and my timing is on point.

When S&C is the goal, I make it to class 2x a week and go easier when I roll.

When I have time off or go on a training holiday I have trained 6 days a week, 2 x a day and struggled. When I came back to my normal training I had made a massive jump forward in technique though.
I dropped all S&C and basically just trained, ate and slept. I still struggled to recover. I also had cardio for days on the mats.
 
DanaWhitesButler said:
I agree that strength and conditioning aren't given enough focus by BJJ instructors. They definitely matter. I'm not sure what the reason is. It could be that BJJ was sold back in the day as something that helps a smaller opponent defeat a bigger one. I never understood this. Any effective martial art (e.g. Muay Thai) will help a smaller practitioner defeat a larger less skilled one. That doesn't seem unique to BJJ. That principle also has limits. I would probably get smoked by an NFL linebacker who has zero BJJ experience because they're so physically superior, even though I'm fairly well conditioned myself. Strength and conditioning helps. For those beginners who ask me about competing in BJJ tournaments, I tell them to train more BJJ but also begin a serious strength and conditioning program with running 3 to 5 miles most days of the week and do some strength training with bodyweight exercises like dips, pull ups, chin ups, various push ups, core work, etc. I can tell that some of my training partners have the skills but physically are not strong enough and feel like training with the women because they've been couch potatoes for 20 or 30 years. We've got this one girl who is just average sized (~130 lbs) but just very fit because she's been a sporty athletic girl her whole life, and she actually feels stronger than some of the guys I train with who have never done anything athletic and BJJ is their first sport ever.
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One problem with suggesting this routine to beginners is that if they try to run 3-5 miles a day and strength train AND do BJJ they'll gas out. They won't be able to sustain the training load.

Also, as a woman with an athletic background like the one in your example, I gotta say a part of me does appreciate the couch potato guys because I have a fair shot against them :p
 
beat...people...up? said:
One problem with suggesting this routine to beginners is that if they try to run 3-5 miles a day and strength train AND do BJJ they'll gas out. They won't be able to sustain the training load.

Also, as a woman with an athletic background like the one in your example, I gotta say a part of me does appreciate the couch potato guys because I have a fair shot against them :p
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I am also grateful for the couch potato guys because they give me a chance to practice my worst subs without risking too much ;-)
 
i think its more important for white and blue belts as when they go to tournaments they usually have at least 3 matches if not 5 to 8 or so black belts usually only have 1 guy or 2 max in there divisions and know how to breath control themselves more
blues usually have the best condition i think cause they been in the game at least a year to get in shape and they dont quite have the technique to completely relax and take there time
 
I was never told to not do it, but oftentimes the upper ranks would tell me to just do more Bjj for conditioning purposes and to build stamina.
 
Kingbedlam said:
I was never told to not do it, but oftentimes the upper ranks would tell me to just do more Bjj for conditioning purposes and to build stamina.
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You can get extremely conditioned with just doing a ton BJJ.
Steve Maxwell tells people that all cardio training for BJJ should be done with rolling.
 
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Im not trying to be one of those guys who are like " look at what my art/school does" but S&C plays a significant role at my dojo. We don't pretend it's not important. We have a full weight room to.

It's just one of those things. Some people really do believe technique is the only thing you need.
 
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Rolling is strength, and conditioning. You need to apply force to pin, control, resist, push, pull, off balance etc etc. Your muscles contract in all movements. Your muscles have to be strong enough to move the skeleton, and resist outside forces so relative strength is a must---even in BJJ. Rolling a 5 minute round is not a cake walk, and doing it alongside drilling will improve your cardiovascular conditioning as well. Perhaps they don't fully understand S&C? Perhaps they are not an example of a typical athletic specimen so them speaking on it might seem odd?.....BJJ has S&C that is clearly sport specific already in the class. Supplemental S&C, and how to make it work for your goals is often misunderstood. Many people (coaches included) still think Mr. Olympia Competitions for S&C----bodybuilding. They may not understand what to do or how it can improve their performance in the sport.
 
It’s never been my instructors who said this..

But yes there are a lot of students/training partners over the years that turn up their noses at SC work. It’s still one of the stupidest things that a lot bjj people think.
 
Best way to train conditioning for bjj is getting some mats getting friends and rolling. Oh and lifting heavy ass weights.
 
FightGuyOpenMind said:
Rolling is strength, and conditioning. You need to apply force to pin, control, resist, push, pull, off balance etc etc. Your muscles contract in all movements. Your muscles have to be strong enough to move the skeleton, and resist outside forces so relative strength is a must---even in BJJ. Rolling a 5 minute round is not a cake walk, and doing it alongside drilling will improve your cardiovascular conditioning as well. Perhaps they don't fully understand S&C? Perhaps they are not an example of a typical athletic specimen so them speaking on it might seem odd?.....BJJ has S&C that is clearly sport specific already in the class. Supplemental S&C, and how to make it work for your goals is often misunderstood. Many people (coaches included) still think Mr. Olympia Competitions for S&C----bodybuilding. They may not understand what to do or how it can improve their performance in the sport.
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Im speaking out of my depth here but I think bodybuilding has gotten a lot of unnecessary hate in the past decade or so.

China has been a proponent of bodybuilding to build supporting muscles/ligaments for their weightlifting athletes, who are some of if not the best weightlifters in the world. Anecdotally, I think bb'ing rep/set schemes also decrease chances of injury and leave me less fatigued, which is important since grappling/skill development should be the core of most of my training, ideally when my CNS isn't super taxed.

There are a lot of caveats here (e.g. China has over a billion people, their athletes have been conditioned from very young, weightlifting is still primarily a strength sport, etc.) Probably most pertinent of all, I'm not sure what I wrote even applies to most people as these Chinese are super elite athletes (some of these competitors holding current world records). They are the genetic super elite.

I leave with you this. Parphrasing - "many weightlifters are closet bodybuilders" - Glenn Pendlay
 
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asian-glow said:
Im speaking out of my depth here but I think bodybuilding has gotten a lot of unnecessary hate in the past decade or so.

China has been a proponent of bodybuilding to build supporting muscles/ligaments for their weightlifting athletes, who are some of if not the best weightlifters in the world. Anecdotally, I think bb'ing rep/set schemes also decrease chances of injury and leave me less fatigued, which is important since grappling/skill development should be the core of most of my training, ideally when my CNS isn't super taxed.

There are a lot of caveats here (e.g. China has over a billion people, their athletes have been conditioned from very young, weightlifting is still primarily a strength sport, etc.) Probably most pertinent of all, I'm not sure what I wrote even applies to most people as these Chinese are super elite athletes (some of these competitors holding current world records). They are the genetic super elite.

I leave with you this. Parphrasing - "many weightlifters are closet bodybuilders" - Glenn Pendlay
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Absolutely bodybuilding gets a bad rep!! I believe there is a stigma associated with bodybuilding as it pertains to combat sports" as well. For generations popular opinion (that I've heard at least) is that BB will make you 1) slow, 2) stiff / inflexible, and 3) will leave you gassing if you're participating in combat sports. It can....but everything in context, can't stress that enough. Here is what I think as far as those arguments:

1) You need to train CNS to be fast, if you want to be fast. Afferent neurons are affected by sensory stimuli, so example: if my eyes see I need to box jump or sprint a distance my brain will process the feat, and send the impulses or efferent neurons to activate the body to accomplish that. Your brain knows (through experience or replication) that the body needs to contract forcefully, and quickly to accomplish these tasks. Continuing this style training will improve speed, reaction time, etc etc. Train fast with high muscle fiber activation you'll get it.
2) Muscles are necessary to move the skeleton. The contraction they provide allow for movement. The stronger the muscle, the stronger the contraction the more forcefully you can move the skeleton. The body is a mechanical system. Stronger muscles should be able to increase your ROM. However, if you are constantly training the muscle to contract without stretching, it will become accustomed to that contracted state. Think a paper ball that no one opened back up to its original state again. You'll become tense, and stiff.
3) As far as gassing, if you've been neglecting your other training (cardio, sparring etc) then you will lose the gained adaptations in those areas. Your body will respond to the demands imposed on it. You have to train for what your goals are. If you take up bodybuilding style movements, and don't have success (gas, can't make weight etc.) those in your camp are probably going to say less BB more x, y, z combat sport.

I will never knock bodybuilding!! I think it gets a horrible rep lol. I think many people's view of it is skewed like with anything else due to what they have been shown with little or isolated experience. I used bodybuilding to overcome an injury in grappling. Stand up we were both going for a throw, landed wrong on my foot, hyperextended the knee. No tearing (that I know of). I used RDL's amongst other things to build the body, and strengthen the muscles around that knee. I use BB for injury prevention lol

^^This is a LONG post, and I'm trying get better at that, but thanks for listening to my thoughts, and points if you did.
 
I believe bjj needs strength and conditioning and grip strength , but as far as the coaches are concerned they usually care about movement , flexibility and technique. Of course it better to include the strength part as well but BJJ instructors usually warm up with pushups and body strength workout. Of course it’s better to have the full package including technique and that’s what makes a top tier grappler. But always remember technique > Strength
 
FightGuyOpenMind said:
Absolutely bodybuilding gets a bad rep!! I believe there is a stigma associated with bodybuilding as it pertains to combat sports" as well. For generations popular opinion (that I've heard at least) is that BB will make you 1) slow, 2) stiff / inflexible, and 3) will leave you gassing if you're participating in combat sports. It can....but everything in context, can't stress that enough. Here is what I think as far as those arguments:

1) You need to train CNS to be fast, if you want to be fast. Afferent neurons are affected by sensory stimuli, so example: if my eyes see I need to box jump or sprint a distance my brain will process the feat, and send the impulses or efferent neurons to activate the body to accomplish that. Your brain knows (through experience or replication) that the body needs to contract forcefully, and quickly to accomplish these tasks. Continuing this style training will improve speed, reaction time, etc etc. Train fast with high muscle fiber activation you'll get it.
2) Muscles are necessary to move the skeleton. The contraction they provide allow for movement. The stronger the muscle, the stronger the contraction the more forcefully you can move the skeleton. The body is a mechanical system. Stronger muscles should be able to increase your ROM. However, if you are constantly training the muscle to contract without stretching, it will become accustomed to that contracted state. Think a paper ball that no one opened back up to its original state again. You'll become tense, and stiff.
3) As far as gassing, if you've been neglecting your other training (cardio, sparring etc) then you will lose the gained adaptations in those areas. Your body will respond to the demands imposed on it. You have to train for what your goals are. If you take up bodybuilding style movements, and don't have success (gas, can't make weight etc.) those in your camp are probably going to say less BB more x, y, z combat sport.

I will never knock bodybuilding!! I think it gets a horrible rep lol. I think many people's view of it is skewed like with anything else due to what they have been shown with little or isolated experience. I used bodybuilding to overcome an injury in grappling. Stand up we were both going for a throw, landed wrong on my foot, hyperextended the knee. No tearing (that I know of). I used RDL's amongst other things to build the body, and strengthen the muscles around that knee. I use BB for injury prevention lol

^^This is a LONG post, and I'm trying get better at that, but thanks for listening to my thoughts, and points if you did.
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There are indeed old schools of martial arts thought that assert S&C to be time better spent elsewhere. I know a really good BB who told me he didn't need too.

I do. My body is prone to injury and I roll with some big fuckers. If I don't lift, I dont feel like I can structurally support some peoples weight. I also noticed I tend to get hurt in areas that I didn't previously train directly, like the elbows and shoulders. Lifting to me functions as a shield rather than a sword - a means of self preservation. I also see it as daily maintenance, like brushing my teeth. I also like to look good bc I'm vain.
 
asian-glow said:
There are indeed old schools of martial arts thought that assert S&C to be time better spent elsewhere. I know a really good BB who told me he didn't need too.

I do. My body is prone to injury and I roll with some big fuckers. If I don't lift, I dont feel like I can structurally support some peoples weight. I also noticed I tend to get hurt in areas that I didn't previously train directly, like the elbows and shoulders. Lifting to me functions as a shield rather than a sword - a means of self preservation. I also see it as daily maintenance, like brushing my teeth. I also like to look good bc I'm vain.
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I'm the exact same way!! Grappling is high body contact, and the standing segment is definitely high impact. At one time I had a training partner who was 280lbs and I weigh 175lbs. We would randori (Judo) and for all the heart, and cardio I thought I had I would get tossed around. I would spring back up to get thrown again, spring back up to get thrown again. I would kuzushi, and go for foot sweeps, and leg reaps.

The guy would re-establish his base, clinch hard and re-direct my momentum the opposite way into me being flattened on the tatami. IPPON!!! (clearly lol) His deciding factor, despite what some martial arts purists may think was the guy was just too big, too strong. So I had to lift heavy....every squat or DL variation I could think to do had to be over 300lbs, bench had to be mid 200s (I have longer arms, never had an outstanding bench), and lots of towel pullups. Lifting is definitely a good shield. I agree wholeheartedly.
 
Being a pure white new BJJ practitioner, I don't have a lot of meaningful input... my most perfected move so far is three quick taps, BUT... as a boxer and former powerlifter, I can say this: my cardio allows me to not get very tired and I can move bodies around easily. Not with technique, since I have none, but with pure dumb strength. All I want to say is that S&C make a difference IMO.

Obviously, I believe technique is important, that's why I started BJJ. I don't push people around, I am there to learn.
 
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