Why do so many people in bjj not lift weights

[anaconda]

So please explain what you're argumentative about?
I clearly state that lifting is very beneficial to bjj and will improve your game.
You just said in your last post that if you're competing you should lift, so you just agreeing with my whole point.

I never said lifting is more important than grappling, and never said you NEED to lift to be a high level grappler.
So I don't understand what your argument is honestly, im not even trying to be a dick.
I understand you were trying to fix your mobility, which is my point you took the time and dedication to improve upon an Inbalance you have, that's what I agree with, so again don't understand your debate, seems like you just want to put out the fact that you been grappling for a long time, congratulations.

Ok let's make it simpler.

Say a person only has 3 days a week to train in anything. And they want to start training bjj.

How would you recommend they split their time as they progress?

What about a person that has 5 days a week?

Plan out 5 years of "optimal" training for the above examples so I can better understand what you are suggesting because clearly I'm not the only one confused.

 

[shortlefthook]

Ok let's make it simpler.

Say a person only has 3 days a week to train in anything. And they want to start training bjj.

How would you recommend they split their time as they progress?

What about a person that has 5 days a week?

Plan out 5 years of "optimal" training for the above examples so I can better understand what you are suggesting because clearly I'm not the only one confused.

The problem is we have opposing views of what's "optimal".
is seems to you having faster progress in the short term is better.
I look at the bigger picture if anybody plans on making grappling a lifelong hobby you need to squeeze room in for strength and conditioning, it may take longer to reach black belt, but you will be able to mantain your body.
that in itself will optimize my training for YEARS In advanced, and indirectly make me better.
There's a reason sports science backs it.

to the person with 3 days a week.
I would go to class 2x a week, lift 1x.
Then next week only grapple 3x, rotate next week grapple 1x, lift 2x.
That's more optimal in the long term than just grappling for 3x a week all the time.
I bet in 15 years when they are both black belts the guy who took the time to do strength and conditioning is far better off..
That's optimal.

 

[shortlefthook]

I ask because I've been lifting too, for 3 years, and I don't want to lose those 3 years of effort. Can you still maintain your strength levels(bench/squats/deadlift) in the gym or did it improve or deteriorate?

If you go to class recover eat properly, and continue to push in the gym then you will continue to make progress.

I stopped lifting for 22 months and got right back to where I was in 3 months because of muscle memory, and I have made great strength gains in the past year strongest I have ever been while still going to class.

 

[cjd]

I think it's also worth noting that many people have never been exposed to a real weight training program (and been taught to properly do the big lifts) - they just see shitty body part splits from BB magazines with no structured progression. Those are a waste of time unless you're freakishly genetically gifted, so most people end up concluding that weight training isn't for them.

Even if they've been exposed to a bit more than that, most of the readily available programs are very barbell sports oriented - or they're like SS, which prioritizes gaining as much strength as possible in as little time over everything else.

 

[HunterAcosta]

The problem is we have opposing views of what's "optimal".
is seems to you having faster progress in the short term is better.
I look at the bigger picture if anybody plans on making grappling a lifelong hobby you need to squeeze room in for strength and conditioning, it may take longer to reach black belt, but you will be able to mantain your body.
that in itself will optimize my training for YEARS In advanced, and indirectly make me better.
There's a reason sports science backs it.

to the person with 3 days a week.
I would go to class 2x a week, lift 1x.
Then next week only grapple 3x, rotate next week grapple 1x, lift 2x.
That's more optimal in the long term than just grappling for 3x a week all the time.
I bet in 15 years when they are both black belts the guy who took the time to do strength and conditioning is far better off..
That's optimal.

Exactly. ANYTHING that will help your body(sleep,weights, good nutrition, stretching) will improve your bjj by default as in, when your body is more efficient, healthier,stronger, pliable.....you will be a better version of yourself doing bjj. It blows my mind that this is even debatable.

 

[anaconda]

The problem is we have opposing views of what's "optimal".
is seems to you having faster progress in the short term is better.
I look at the bigger picture if anybody plans on making grappling a lifelong hobby you need to squeeze room in for strength and conditioning, it may take longer to reach black belt, but you will be able to mantain your body.
that in itself will optimize my training for YEARS In advanced, and indirectly make me better.
There's a reason sports science backs it.

to the person with 3 days a week.
I would go to class 2x a week, lift 1x.
Then next week only grapple 3x, rotate next week grapple 1x, lift 2x.
That's more optimal in the long term than just grappling for 3x a week all the time.
I bet in 15 years when they are both black belts the guy who took the time to do strength and conditioning is far better off..
That's optimal.

Well grappling fewer than 100 times a year means you would almost never get to black belt.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Also if you think lifting once a week on average is enough to make such a huge difference then I would say just let the 3x per week guy do some bodyweight and plyo training 15 min before bjj he'll prob have better results.

Anyway this thread has gone long enough. Good luck with your training.

 

[Universal Kombat]

For me personally it's both a time issue and lack of interest.

Lost count of how many times I joined a gym to weight lift but got so bored.

Right now with a full time job and two kids just making it to BJJ class every day is a challenge. Any more than that and my wife will divorce me. No joke.

This is why I've never married any od my girlfriends and never will. A married man is a slave to a woman no matter how one looks at it.

 

[shortlefthook]

Well grappling fewer than 100 times a year means you would almost never get to black belt.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Also if you think lifting once a week on average is enough to make such a huge difference then I would say just let the 3x per week guy do some bodyweight and plyo training 15 min before bjj he'll prob have better results.

Anyway this thread has gone long enough. Good luck with your training.

The example you gave me was someone who could only grapple 123 days a year if they litterally go everyday 3 days a week, no injury's breaks ect as opposed to 80- 100 days if you include strength and conditioning and it's supposed to take "forever" to get to black belt.
In the end the difference in experience will only take a 1-2 years to make up vs completely behind on strength, the difference plays out in the long run.
And yes if you rotate your training you can see gains from only strength training 1x a week, those will act as active recovery weeks, which is actually really good for strength.
Then lift 2x next week, it's the same as lifting 3x a week you're just stretching out the rest days, as long as your going heavier or getting more reps with your working set you're getting stronger.

And you should be doing body weight work and plyo before class regardless, you're completely undermining strength and conditioning even comparing that little 15 min bodyweight warm up too a full training day dedicated too lifting.

 

[Evenflow80]

This is why I've never married any od my girlfriends and never will. A married man is a slave to a woman no matter how one looks at it.

Can't argue with that to be honest. The nagging is just not worth the trouble

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

.
I bet in 15 years when they are both black belts the guy who took the time to do strength and conditioning is far better off..
That's optimal.

I disagree, on that schedule the max they'll train a month in grappling is 8x. That isn't going to create a black belt, even in 15 years.

 

[shortlefthook]

I disagree, on that schedule the max they'll train a month in grappling is 8x. That isn't going to create a black belt, even in 15 years.

The max would actually be 9 (3+1+2+3) and some months it would fall in 8 very Little difference Compared to 12 days if you don't do strength and conditioning, you could definitely get a black belt in 15 years that's about as much as a hobbyist goes to class and belts are given out on ability and experience and that's enough time for allot of people that's on the higher side of the spectrum as well. there's been people to get brown belts in 7 years going 2-3x a week, and I'm sure even less then that.

The given example the guy who takes the time off to lift is going to better off in the long run, the proof is in the pudding if you disagree with sports science that's fine

Tyler Bishop got a blackbelt in 10 years training 2-3x a week in his own words

 

[jr jr]

You know what protects my body the most (44 year old brown)? Proper technique. The best thing I could do now is yoga (I said this once). Lifting would help but flexibility and cardio would help more. I get hurt when I push too hard when I am out of gas...technique goes to shit and I end up trying to muscle the position. Powering out of positions has gotten me hurt more than it has saved me.

 

[freakroor]

Easy to throw stones. I don't lift. Am I lazy because I would rather ride my bike when not rolling than lift? I don't think that is lazy. I think it is having other priorities.

one could say the definition of lazy is "having other priorities"...

 

[anaconda]

The example you gave me was someone who could only grapple 123 days a year if they litterally go everyday 3 days a week, no injury's breaks ect as opposed to 80- 100 days if you include strength and conditioning and it's supposed to take "forever" to get to black belt.
In the end the difference in experience will only take a 1-2 years to make up vs completely behind on strength, the difference plays out in the long run.
And yes if you rotate your training you can see gains from only strength training 1x a week, those will act as active recovery weeks, which is actually really good for strength.
Then lift 2x next week, it's the same as lifting 3x a week you're just stretching out the rest days, as long as your going heavier or getting more reps with your working set you're getting stronger.

And you should be doing body weight work and plyo before class regardless, you're completely undermining strength and conditioning even comparing that little 15 min bodyweight warm up too a full training day dedicated too lifting.

Wait a second: 3 times a week x 52 weeks a year = 123?
It's actually 156... And in your scenario the lifting guy trains 6x in 3 weeks so 2x a week on average = 104x per year.

I'll spare you any more math. The guy who only grapples trains 50% more than the other guy.

In 5 years, the guy doing just grappling has 780 classes while the other guy has 520.
In those 5 years, he has 260 more classes - that's the equivalent of 2.5 years of training for the guy that's lifting. That's an extra 390 hours of mat time!

Let me reemphasize so the point is lost - it will take 7.5 years of training for the guy lifting weights to have the same amount of mat time as the guy only grappling has in 5 years, under these assumptions.

In 15 years of training grappling only guy will have 7.5 years more training years relative to the lifting guy's years of training. So it will take him 22.5 years of training to get the same number of mat hours as the guy who just grapples!

This doesn't even take into account that it's virtually impossible to progress well training twice a week once you are no longer an absolute beginner.

Anyway, lifting is great. Have at it. But don't make it seem that somehow lifting will be more significant for progression than grappling.

Certainly, each additional hour of mat time per week after a certain point adds less marginal value compared to the hour before (diminishing returns), and at some point lifting or cardio or outside work becomes more valuable to your progression. The dispute here is where that line is drawn.

Personally I would say very conservatively that anything less than 8 hours per week and you are better off just grappling. The slope of the progression curve for someone training twice a week vs three times vs four times is tremendously different. In my experience, it only starts to come back down (in terms of the rate of increase) between four and five times, and then five and six again.

Basically, unless you can train 4x per week and lift, if your primary goal is to learn how to grapple, spend all your time grappling. If you have more time, then consider adding lifting at that point.

 

[jr jr]

one could say the definition of lazy is "having other priorities"...

OK. I am lazy then.....Meh

 

[shortlefthook]

Wait a second: 3 times a week x 52 weeks a year = 123?
It's actually 156... And in your scenario the lifting guy trains 6x in 3 weeks so 2x a week on average = 104x per year.

I'll spare you any more math. The guy who only grapples trains 50% more than the other guy.

In 5 years, the guy doing just grappling has 780 classes while the other guy has 520.
In those 5 years, he has 260 more classes - that's the equivalent of 2.5 years of training for the guy that's lifting. That's an extra 390 hours of mat time!

Let me reemphasize so the point is lost - it will take 7.5 years of training for the guy lifting weights to have the same amount of mat time as the guy only grappling has in 5 years, under these assumptions.

In 15 years of training grappling only guy will have 7.5 years more training years relative to the lifting guy's years of training. So it will take him 22.5 years of training to get the same number of mat hours as the guy who just grapples!

This doesn't even take into account that it's virtually impossible to progress well training twice a week once you are no longer an absolute beginner.

Anyway, lifting is great. Have at it. But don't make it seem that somehow lifting will be more significant for progression than grappling.

Certainly, each additional hour of mat time per week after a certain point adds less marginal value compared to the hour before (diminishing returns), and at some point lifting or cardio or outside work becomes more valuable to your progression. The dispute here is where that line is drawn.

Personally I would say very conservatively that anything less than 8 hours per week and you are better off just grappling. The slope of the progression curve for someone training twice a week vs three times vs four times is tremendously different. In my experience, it only starts to come back down (in terms of the rate of increase) between four and five times, and then five and six again.

Basically, unless you can train 4x per week and lift, if your primary goal is to learn how to grapple, spend all your time grappling. If you have more time, then consider adding lifting at that point.

The point is the point I made in the original post which is the most optimal way to train is too include strength and conditioning and I honestly didn't think the thread would go this long while people are changing the main point to be argumentative, in the scenario where you litterally don't have enough time to lift then don't lift, just don't claim it holds no benefit to bjj that was my point.. there's a large percentage of people who def do have enough time, they just don't believe there's any benefit

The best way to train isn't to only do bjj, it's a balancing act, and I would much rather be 2.5 years behind in bjj, then have a bunch of muscular imbalances, more injury prone, not as strong ect.
Like I said in the end the difference is made up for if you plan on making grappling a lifelong hobby what's 2.5 years? If it takes the guy who only grapples 10 years, it will take the other 12.5 if they are literally on the same exact learning curve which never happens.
that doesn't sound like much of a difference, especially considering the difference in strength can't and won't be mad up for in 2.5 years. Also at that point you probably already have injury's and inbalances to work through to even get remotely near the level of mobility and strength as someone who lifted (correctly) for 10 years

Your body should be your priority what good is a blackbelt if you can't even roll because of injurys?

 

[anaconda]

The point is the point I made in the original post which is the most optimal way to train is too include strength and conditioning and I honestly didn't think the thread would go this long while people are changing the main point to be argumentative, in the scenario where you litterally don't have enough time to lift then don't lift, just don't claim it holds no benefit to bjj that was my point.. there's a large percentage of people who def do have enough time, they just don't believe there's any benefit

The best way to train isn't to only do bjj, it's a balancing act, and I would much rather be 2.5 years behind in bjj, then have a bunch of muscular imbalances, more injury prone, not as strong ect.
Like I said in the end the difference is made up for if you plan on making grappling a lifelong hobby what's 2.5 years? If it takes the guy who only grapples 10 years, it will take the other 12.5 if they are literally on the same exact learning curve which never happens.
that doesn't sound like much of a difference, especially considering the difference in strength can't and won't be mad up for in 2.5 years. Also at that point you probably already have injury's and inbalances to work through to even get remotely near the level of mobility and strength as someone who lifted (correctly) for 10 years

Your body should be your priority what good is a blackbelt if you can't even roll because of injurys?

I'm not going to belabor the point except to mention one thing - it definitely is the same exact learning curve between guy a and guy b, because it's actually the same person.

What we're looking at is if the same person chose one of two paths what would better serve them.

Also, most of the people I know that have done bjj for a while and do it casually don't really have big issues with injuries or imbalances. It's either the guys that slack in warmups or other areas, or the guys that compete a lot.

Anyway good luck with your training and lifting. Thanks for this thread, which has reminded me why I've generally stayed away from Sherdog more often than not the past few years.

 

[nefti]

The problem is we have opposing views of what's "optimal".
is seems to you having faster progress in the short term is better.
I look at the bigger picture if anybody plans on making grappling a lifelong hobby you need to squeeze room in for strength and conditioning, it may take longer to reach black belt, but you will be able to mantain your body.
that in itself will optimize my training for YEARS In advanced, and indirectly make me better.
There's a reason sports science backs it.

to the person with 3 days a week.
I would go to class 2x a week, lift 1x.
Then next week only grapple 3x, rotate next week grapple 1x, lift 2x.
That's more optimal in the long term than just grappling for 3x a week all the time.
I bet in 15 years when they are both black belts the guy who took the time to do strength and conditioning is far better off..
That's optimal.

So you were mainly concerned about muscular imbalances and long term health

 

[anaconda]

So you were mainly concerned about muscular imbalances and long term health

Yes, that is now the narrative. Although that idea didn't show up until halfway through this thread somehow.

Before that it was all about being able to muscle out of positions and maintain posture and control people better.

And of course the impetus for this thread at all is because so many bjj people say lifting has no value, even though no one throughout this thread ever claimed that.

 

[imarayda]

I ask because I've been lifting too, for 3 years, and I don't want to lose those 3 years of effort. Can you still maintain your strength levels(bench/squats/deadlift) in the gym or did it improve or deteriorate?

I haven’t felt any negative affects on my lifts. At least not anything i could directly attribute to Bjj.