Why does Kickboxing recieve so much dis-respect from the Muay Thai community?

[CPH]

The single knee restriction came as a result of Semmy Schilt. As far as Buakaw vs Masato 1 is concerned, most of the damage was inflicted at kicking range not in the clinch.

I'm sure Tanikawa didn't like seeing Buakaw's superior clinching and it was factored into the decision of bringing the 1 knee rule into MAX but people do overplay this. It was already in the heavies that year so not surprising for them to make the rules uniform.

I never bought that 'they wanted to make the rules uniform' argument. If Tanikawa wanted to do that, he would have done it simultaneously in both divisions (because he could).

Personally, I think that it's very clear that in the heavies, the catalyst was Schilt, in MAX, it was Buakaw.

Even when he wasn't finishing opponents in the clinch, Buakaw was using it to land multiple knees and almost completely shut down the boxers. He did this in the first Masato fight too.

I don't buy the argument that it was to make the fights more exciting either, because they didn't get more exciting. If anything the smothering tactics and passivity got worse.

 

[Pem123]

Yeah it was just mere coincidence that after Buakaw managed to annihilate the Japanese golden boy Masato in the final with knees that they brought in the clinch restrictions of only one knee at a time just before the next years Max tournament? After it was really boring to watch Buakaw knee the crap out of everyone en route to the final like they were nothing more than annoying mosquitos. Yeah dat conspiracy lol

Pride also allowed Kick and Knees to grounded opponent and upkick from guard, to Avoid long And boring American wrestler GnP or LnP (although i did not found it boring)

Is that Mean They Have something against the American, no They just trying to satisfy Their target market, same as K1 did

 

[Pem123]

How is that not copying?

Before their exposure to Muay Thai, Japanese martial arts did not kick with the shin. A few Okinawa styles like Uechi Ryu utilized shin kicks, but karate in Japan mainly used the ball, instep, and heel. Plus the Japanese never developed clinching with elbows and knees like the Thais and other Southeast Asians did.

ITS not copying, They Learn something from Muay thai incorporated with Their own martial art

Well then, according to your theory every martial art is a copying from ITS roots

 

[GustavHolst**]

K-1 banned the clinch because Buakaw dominated their golden boy, the fighting pride of Japan, the greatest kickboxer to ever walk the Earth... KOHIRUIMAKI!

 

[DastardlyMass]

ITS not copying, They Learn something from Muay thai incorporated with Their own martial art

Well then, according to your theory every martial art is a copying from ITS roots

No they did what every thai camp does which is have there own slightly different versions of techniques. Except japanese got mad at losing so often so they changed the name of the sport in their homeland

 

[Deleted member 363827]

ITS not copying, They Learn something from Muay thai incorporated with Their own martial art

Well then, according to your theory every martial art is a copying from ITS roots

They have frickin wai kru before the match.
I am starting a new thread citing sources from Thailand and Japan, this is going to be pretty fun.
If only I can find that old ass kickboxing origin book about Osamu.

 

[Pem123]

No they did what every thai camp does which is have there own slightly different versions of techniques. Except japanese got mad at losing so often so they changed the name of the sport in their homeland

no the didn't it might look similar, but if you watch both K1 and FTR a lot you can see the different
first of all i think this is the answer why Kickboxing/K1 (that derived from Karate) never get along because both Japanese and Thailand is infected with infantile disease called nationalism

or because both look very similar so the older art start to believe that they were copying their art, while the fact they just take something that useful from their art and corporate that with theirs.

IMO both are different but similar, i liked both of them. both have their own target market although i think that both have similar target market which are Combat Sport fans. and with this we end the discussion

 

[Pem123]

They have frickin wai kru before the match.
I am starting a new thread citing sources from Thailand and Japan, this is going to be pretty fun.
If only I can find that old ass kickboxing origin book about Osamu.

i think that because the fight held in Thailand, i don't see much Japanese Kickboxer in K1 practicing Wai Kru before the match, i think that's is good thing that Japanese fighter practicing wai kru before the match to respect the Thai people, i don't see that as evidence of Japanese copying Muay Thai

and you say you going to make that thread yesterday, are you to busy with your own life activity ? remember always to prioritize Sherdog before anything else.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I love you, snub. Sorry for being mean to you in the past.

Lol...

 

[aries]

I never bought that 'they wanted to make the rules uniform' argument. If Tanikawa wanted to do that, he would have done it simultaneously in both divisions (because he could).

Personally, I think that it's very clear that in the heavies, the catalyst was Schilt, in MAX, it was Buakaw.

Even when he wasn't finishing opponents in the clinch, Buakaw was using it to land multiple knees and almost completely shut down the boxers. He did this in the first Masato fight too.

I don't buy the argument that it was to make the fights more exciting either, because they didn't get more exciting. If anything the smothering tactics and passivity got worse.

Exactly this. Buakaws knee dominance was a huge factor. The ref kept breaking them really quickly but Masato couldn't work his boxing because he just got clinched. And the stalling in the clinch got a lot worse after this ruling.

Pride also allowed Kick and Knees to grounded opponent and upkick from guard, to Avoid long And boring American wrestler GnP or LnP (although i did not found it boring)

Is that Mean They Have something against the American, no They just trying to satisfy Their target market, same as K1 did

That doesn't make any sense at all. Knees to grounded opponents suit wrestlers because they are the ones able to secure the takedowns and keep their opponents controlled on the ground.

 

[Pem123]

Exactly this. Buakaws knee dominance was a huge factor. The ref kept breaking them really quickly but Masato couldn't work his boxing because he just got clinched. And the stalling in the clinch got a lot worse after this ruling.



That doesn't make any sense at all. Knees to grounded opponents suit wrestlers because they are the ones able to secure the takedowns and keep their opponents controlled on the ground.

It does to certain extend because, Fighter Would fear if They Failed to get the takedown They Would be easily get knee to the head.

But Then back to my point, it stop LnP in general Which are attracting different target market. Just Like kickboxing

 

[VicariousVice]

It does to certain extend because, Fighter Would fear if They Failed to get the takedown They Would be easily get knee to the head.

But Then back to my point, it stop LnP in general Which are attracting different target market. Just Like kickboxing

If this was allowed in the UFC you'd see a lot less double legs being utilized. There'd probably be more of a focus on throws like the Lateral Drop, Harai Goshi(which would be a very nice thing to see).

I think they should atleast allow a single knee as a counter to a stuffed double leg, but given the stupid rule of no knees to a grounded opponent wrestlers are free to shoot for as many as they want with little fear outside of an elbow or guillotine choke, which leads to boring lay and pray wrestlers winning by points from takedowns.

The upkick from the guard should be allowed too.

 

[Pem123]

If this was allowed in the UFC you'd see a lot less double legs being utilized. There'd probably be more of a focus on throws like the Lateral Drop, Harai Goshi(which would be a very nice thing to see).

I think they should atleast allow a single knee as a counter to a stuffed double leg, but given the stupid rule of no knees to a grounded opponent wrestlers are free to shoot for as many as they want with little fear outside of an elbow or guillotine choke, which leads to boring lay and pray wrestlers winning by points from takedowns.

The upkick from the guard should be allowed too.

See you got the point, that is same reason why They put the new clinch rules in K1 because not everyone want to see clinch , just Like not everyone want to see long LnP.
Not because They hate American wresler.

 

[Deleted member 363827]

See you got the point, that is same reason why They put the new clinch rules in K1 because not everyone want to see clinch , just Like not everyone want to see long LnP.
Not because They hate American wresler.

That does not make any sense, comparing k1 situation and pride situation.

In k1 the clinch knees were banned purely because of two high level athletes who dominate
the sport with them.
In mma, things are different. In pride back then you can't soccer kick the downed opponent
this change after Igor vs Kerr 1. You also can't strike to downed opponents back in the day.
In America after the ban of mma, they added bunches of rules to make it less violent
Some of these rules are stupid though like no knee to opponent with one hand down (and fighters just abuse it)
The worst rule is no downward elbow, according to John McCarthy , the commission banned it because they think it is too deadly
citing seeing karate guys breaking bricks_

 

[Pem123]

That does not make any sense, comparing k1 situation and pride situation.

In k1 the clinch knees were banned purely because of two high level athletes who dominate
the sport with them.
In mma, things are different. In pride back then you can't soccer kick the downed opponent
this change after Igor vs Kerr 1. You also can't strike to downed opponents back in the day.
In America after the ban of mma, they added bunches of rules to make it less violent
Some of these rules are stupid though like no knee to opponent with one hand down (and fighters just abuse it)
The worst rule is no downward elbow, according to John McCarthy , the commission banned it because they think it is too deadly
citing seeing karate guys breaking bricks_

if Pride doesn't uses their rules, you would see Wrestler like GSP, Cain or Jones dominate Pride.

 

[Deleted member 363827]

if Pride doesn't uses their rules, you would see Wrestler like GSP, Cain or Jones dominate Pride.

And there were no gsp, jones, and Cain back in the day.
If you had watched Pride back in the day you would have known Arona.
He was a nasty lay and prayer back in the day, that is why poor Sakuraba became his highlight reel
because his other fights were boring.
Many fighters in pride lay an pray, another good example is Kevin randleman
You can't study pride just by watching its highlight it has it's own share of boring fight despite the rule.

 

[CPH]

You do know that the "catalyst" was a fight that happened long before Buakaw ever stepped inside the K-1 ring, right? The discussion around and push for the end to the clinch originated looooooong before anyone even knew who Buakaw was. Most likely, even if Buakaw never fought in K-1 the rule would have been changed sooner or later. The writing was on the wall at that point anyway.

The discussion began yet no one saw it necessary to address the MAX rules for quite some time. Why is that? In 2004, Buakaw breezes through the tourney, fights Kozo ..and then right before his very next fight against Kraus, is told that there has been a rule change...

You have to try really hard to paint that as having more to do with Schilt, concern with the entertainment value of MAX fights, a coincidence or whatever else. But I know that this is one of your pet peeves so go right ahead.

 

[Pem123]

And there were no gsp, jones, and Cain back in the day.
If you had watched Pride back in the day you would have known Arona.
He was a nasty lay and prayer back in the day, that is why poor Sakuraba became his highlight reel
because his other fights were boring.
Many fighters in pride lay an pray, another good example is Kevin randleman
You can't study pride just by watching its highlight it has it's own share of boring fight despite the rule.

My whole point is, the only reason why K1 changes the rules is to satisfy their target market, not because they haves dislike or hate towards Thai fighter, the same way Pride did against Wrestler.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I certainly think K-1 did everything they could to make Masato as successful as possible, to the detriment of Buakaw (and others). I don't look at it as them doing Buakaw dirty for racial reasons as Buakaw was a big star for them as well and those Japanese girls loved him.

Either way, K-1 is dead

 

[Harukaze]

Point is people here seem to equate Schilt and Buakaw in this regard (or worse, only mention Buakaw), while it was Schilt's performance that not only started the debate, but also lead to the rule change first. Yes, I'm sure Buakaw played his part, but without Schilt, I doubt MAX, let alone K-1 in general, would have gotten it's rule change when it did.

I followed K-1 since the mid-90s and always got the feeling that the rule change regarding clinching was due to Schilt more than Buakaw.

Changpuek, Buakaw, Kaoklai, and Fuji (Chalmsak) weren't the most clinch-happy nak muay around, at least not under K-1 rules.