Why is it a bad time to build a gaming PC?

We departed from objectivity when we started comparing unlike parts.

They are not unlike, simply not the exact same parts.

Piracy is not the same as legally purchased software. Ditching the cost of the OS is one of those "tricks" you can use at the custom builder sites like CPPC & IBP.

It's not piracy when you can download from Microsoft and use it without any extra means. At most you are violating their terms of service, which is not illegal.

If they're just going to buy a cheaper refurb again in 5 years I doubt they'd care. The point of this buy isn't upgradeability or reuseability. It's viable gaming power under $400.

They may not care, I would argue they should as the majority of those that get into PC gaming look to continue or up grade, however that is up to them to decide.

You aren't fairly weighing each choice. Where does the ability to upgrade come from in your build? The Case and PSU, of course. Those cost $65 in your build. So I could literally purchase them, sit on them, and also have them for a future build while still beating your cost by $85 (once you add the 500GB HDD and scdkey...beat it by $50 without them). Your dogmatic devotion to building has caused you to overlook these simple considerations while scrambling to argue better value.
  1. The ability to upgrade the GPU 1x (R3-1200 bottlenecks beyond the GTX 1070)
  2. Case & PSU can be recycled towards new build
  3. Overclockable (which voids warranty)
  4. DDR4 RAM > DDR3 RAM
Are probably not worth ~$150 premium to most buyers on a $400 purchase.

You could buy the case and PSU and just sit on them. However most people don't want to do that. In the end I would say those 4 you listed are pretty good reasons to spend an extra $150 dollars. There is a reason most people looking to build a PC wait until they have a larger budget then $400. It's the same reason most people are looking for cases with windows and simple better aesthetics, like PSUs without ketchup and mustard cables.
 
It's not piracy when you can download from Microsoft and use it without any extra means. At most you are violating their terms of service, which is not illegal.
Yes, but it's $14. It's also a glorified form of piracy. A famous eletronics e-waste innovator tried getting cute with this in court, too. Didn't work out well for him-- headed to prison:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-of-pcs/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4e4ea022d651
There's always a possibility with these keys that Microsoft with rescind their validation status. You're at the mercy of Microsoft if you don't understand how to re-hack a broken validation. Objectively, the overwhelming majority of consumers prefer products that are legal and stable to this sort of unreliable grey market. This has been the Android TV Kodi Piracy Boxes' Achilles heel.
They may not care, I would argue they should as the majority of those that get into PC gaming look to continue or up grade, however that is up to them to decide.
Yes. This is the purpose of pointing out that self-building often isn't the superior solution.

It's why I tend to favor the AIOs that are built on the ATX format. It's also why when you substitute a $55 2-RAM slot motherboard against a $90 4-RAM slot motherboard, then say, "They are not unlike, simply not the exact same parts," before subsequently waxing about a lack of expansion in the AIO build, well, it irritates me. Sure, two RAM slots is more than enough, but if 2x4GB is already occupying those slots, you have a value-upgrade problem. Expansion seems to be something you care about until it isn't convenient for you to care about it.
You could buy the case and PSU and just sit on them. However most people don't want to do that. In the end I would say those 4 you listed are pretty good reasons to spend an extra $150 dollars. There is a reason most people looking to build a PC wait until they have a larger budget then $400. It's the same reason most people are looking for cases with windows and simple better aesthetics, like PSUs without ketchup and mustard cables.
No, but they could, and you clearly overlooked this. That's the point. They could wait 4 years and spend that $150 on a far superior Case+PSU for their new build. You tried arguing these future advantages as a foundation for a new build towards value, so of course I pointed out that argument is nonsense.

You can't match this value. You can't throw in stolen software or nerfed components to match it (ex. omitting Windows; omitting WiFi/ODD; nerfing motherboards, etc). You always squirm around philosophically with value in your builds, so I was forced to play cheap tricks in return to establish an undeniable truth, and you're still trying to bargain around it.

For neophyte PC gamers the websites that serve the niche of building your blueprint really are a great entry point. They invite you to learn and understand components, but handle assembly for you. Furthermore, where CyberPowerPC and iBuyPower really shine as retailers is all the deals on accessories they're constantly running. They throw in the gaming mouse, mechanical keyboard, circumaural headset, and WiFi all combined for ~$20. You can even score a chair for $100. For guys who are brand new to PC gaming that is highly attractive.

It's true that gamers have discovered the AIO market, and along with the GPU inflation, it has driven the cost of those bestselling Amazon gamer towers up. That specific CPPC unit's previous Intel i5-7400 iteration has risen from $719 to $779. It's still a worthwhile avenue of consideration even for guys who want to upgrade, but it's most appealing for one-off buyers who want to plug and play:
($630) HP Pavilion Power 580-023w Gaming Tower PC: Intel Core i5-7400 3.0GHz, 8GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1060 3GB, WiFi, Windows 10 (Certified Refurbished)
 
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???, LOL.

Fair point, but with all of the different models available on Amazon (HP, Acer, Lenovo, Dell) you're bound to find multiple viable models with Reddit to reference and double-check compatibility.

Google says this Dell Optiplex 3010 can house the low-profile GTX 1050/Ti cards:
2018 DELL 3010 Flagship Business Desktop SFF Intel Ci5 3470 3.2GHz up to 3.6GHz, 8GB, 2TB HDD, DVD, WIFI,W10P64 (Certified Refurbished)
This one adds WiFi and a 2TB HDD upgrade to the i5-3470 + 8GB DDR3 RAM + DVD-RW + Win10 Pro combo for a price of $250.

They max out at 35w or some stupid shit like that.

I was on the lookout for a 3470 for a long time to try one, I believe I even pm'd you about choices, but ended up getting a killer deal on a Xeon. I planned on pairing it with a GTX 750 but they jumped from $50 to $100 in the used market.
When looking at used 3470 machines, keep an eye out for i5-2500 systems as well. They're basically equal performance i5-2500 i5-3470

That HP Pavillion with the 7400 you posted is a fucking rats nest to work in.

As for the Kinguin OS keys, I've used one since Feb of last year and haven't had an issue.
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As for the Kinguin OS keys, I've used one since Feb of last year and haven't had an issue.
giphy.gif
They're the most reliable of the resellers, but if you Google, you'll find plenty with the opposite experience. Mainly, I want people to understand what this "key" business is all about, and how fragile the "purchases" are:

 
They're the most reliable of the resellers, but if you Google, you'll find plenty with the opposite experience. Mainly, I want people to understand what this "key" business is all about, and how fragile the "purchases" are:


I just posted a personal experience.
 
Yes, but it's $14. It's also a glorified form of piracy. A famous eletronics e-waste innovator tried getting cute with this in court, too. Didn't work out well for him-- headed to prison:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-of-pcs/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4e4ea022d651
There's always a possibility with these keys that Microsoft with rescind their validation status. You're at the mercy of Microsoft if you don't understand how to re-hack a broken validation. Objectively, the overwhelming majority of consumers prefer products that are legal and stable to this sort of unreliable grey market. This has been the Android TV Kodi Piracy Boxes' Achilles heel.

There is a big difference between someone buying a gray market key, or using Windows with a key which Microsoft allows, and creating and selling Windows disks. They are not even close to the same thing.

Yes. This is the purpose of pointing out that self-building often isn't the superior solution.

Your right, build you own PC is not always the best option. I never argued that. My argument is that building your own is more often the better option then you present.

It's why I tend to favor the AIOs that are built on the ATX format. It's also why when you substitute a $55 2-RAM slot motherboard against a $90 4-RAM slot motherboard, then say, "They are not unlike, simply not the exact same parts," before subsequently waxing about a lack of expansion in the AIO build, well, it irritates me. Sure, two RAM slots is more than enough, but if 2x4GB is already occupying those slots, you have a value-upgrade problem. Expansion seems to be something you care about until it isn't convenient for you to care about it.

No expansion is important to me. However having extra RAM slots is not a big selling point to me unless someone plans to add more RAM soon after they complete there build. The reason is simply, wait to long and you may not be able to find the same RAM kit you bought to add. Yes, you could go with a different kit of the same speed, but that can cause issues. Better to buy a larger kit and sell you old one.

No, but they could, and you clearly overlooked this. That's the point. They could wait 4 years and spend that $150 on a far superior Case+PSU for their new build. You tried arguing these future advantages as a foundation for a new build towards value, so of course I pointed out that argument is nonsense.

They could, they could also wait a couple months and save more money for a better system overall. The waiting argument can always be used, that's why it really not a valid consideration.

You can't match this value. You can't throw in stolen software or nerfed components to match it (ex. omitting Windows; omitting WiFi/ODD; nerfing motherboards, etc). You always squirm around philosophically with value in your builds, so I was forced to play cheap tricks in return to establish an undeniable truth, and you're still trying to bargain around it.

No, I can't match the price. There is a difference.

For neophyte PC gamers the websites that serve the niche of building your blueprint really are a great entry point. They invite you to learn and understand components, but handle assembly for you. Furthermore, where CyberPowerPC and iBuyPower really shine as retailers is all the deals on accessories they're constantly running. They throw in the gaming mouse, mechanical keyboard, circumaural headset, and WiFi all combined for ~$20. You can even score a chair for $100. For guys who are brand new to PC gaming that is highly attractive.

Really they are not a great entry point at all. They don't force you to learn. PCPartpicker is a far better learning site, as are some of the PC building reddits. Builders like CyberPowerPC and iBuyPower absolutely can have good deals, they have just as many no so good deals. Even the good deals with there cheap peripherals there are things that are given up. Normally a good power supply is the first thing.

It's true that gamers have discovered the AIO market, and along with the GPU inflation, it has driven the cost of those bestselling Amazon gamer towers up. That specific CPPC unit's previous Intel i5-7400 iteration has risen from $719 to $779. It's still a worthwhile avenue of consideration even for guys who want to upgrade, but it's most appealing for one-off buyers who want to plug and play:
($630) HP Pavilion Power 580-023w Gaming Tower PC: Intel Core i5-7400 3.0GHz, 8GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1060 3GB, WiFi, Windows 10 (Certified Refurbished)

Again you are right deals like that are of interest for those that want to plug and play. Yes, GPU inflation did drive a lot of people to system integrates because you could get deals with GPU at or near market value. As GPU prices come back down those deals will lose some of there shine.

As for that last PC you linked to. Again that is a good deal. Again however you can build a PC for just a little more that had an SSD, which at this point no build should be without, and a slightly better processor.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Core i3-8100 3.6GHz Quad-Core Processor ($115.92 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: ASRock - H310M-DGS Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($59.54 @ Newegg)
Memory: ADATA - XPG GAMMIX D10 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2666 Memory ($79.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: ADATA - Ultimate SU800 128GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($38.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital - Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($43.90 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: EVGA - GeForce GTX 1060 3GB 3GB GAMING Video Card ($209.55 @ Amazon)
Case: Cooler Master - MasterBox Q300L MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($38.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Power Supply: Corsair - CX (2017) 450W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($44.99 @ Amazon)
Keyboard: Logitech - MK200 Wired Slim Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($19.57 @ Newegg)
Total: $651.44
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-05-11 00:19 EDT-0400


So unless someone absolutely needs that DVD drive, which no one does anymore, and WiFi, spending the time and effort to build you own system has benefits.

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-7400-vs-Intel-Core-i3-8100/3886vs3942
 
There is a big difference between someone buying a gray market key, or using Windows with a key which Microsoft allows, and creating and selling Windows disks. They are not even close to the same thing.
scdkey is not an officially authorized reseller of Microsoft keys. There is no such thing. Microsoft alone permits the sale of the software (its keys) in this fashion.
No expansion is important to me. However having extra RAM slots is not a big selling point to me unless someone plans to add more RAM soon after they complete there build. The reason is simply, wait to long and you may not be able to find the same RAM kit you bought to add. Yes, you could go with a different kit of the same speed, but that can cause issues. Better to buy a larger kit and sell you old one.
You nerfed your build, then called it the "same". Later you tried to argue the virtues on expansion when you couldn't match the price on the 75W GPU add-on builds. I pointed this out to demonstrate how you subjectively manipulate the philosophical virtue of what constitutes "value" in order to favor the custom build, and how that reflects a confirmation bias.
They could, they could also wait a couple months and save more money for a better system overall. The waiting argument can always be used, that's why it really not a valid consideration.
Except that it becomes a more weighted consideration when you're only a few months out from a new architectural generation being released when that only occurs every 18-24 months. This one will be closer to 2 1/2 years since the GTX 10 series debuted by the time they actually get it out.
Really they are not a great entry point at all. They don't force you to learn. PCPartpicker is a far better learning site, as are some of the PC building reddits. Builders like CyberPowerPC and iBuyPower absolutely can have good deals, they have just as many no so good deals. Even the good deals with there cheap peripherals there are things that are given up. Normally a good power supply is the first thing.
This is silly. They are valuable precisely because they'll drive new PC gamers to those resources. They force you to learn the major different components, and figure out value (using PCPP isn't mutually exclusive to enlisting the services of those sites, and is in fact a wonderful baseline reference for comparison to any build you assemble on those websites).
Again you are right deals like that are of interest for those that want to plug and play. Yes, GPU inflation did drive a lot of people to system integrates because you could get deals with GPU at or near market value. As GPU prices come back down those deals will lose some of there shine.

As for that last PC you linked to. Again that is a good deal. Again however you can build a PC for just a little more that had an SSD, which at this point no build should be without, and a slightly better processor.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Core i3-8100 3.6GHz Quad-Core Processor ($115.92 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: ASRock - H310M-DGS Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($59.54 @ Newegg)
Memory: ADATA - XPG GAMMIX D10 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2666 Memory ($79.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: ADATA - Ultimate SU800 128GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($38.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital - Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($43.90 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: EVGA - GeForce GTX 1060 3GB 3GB GAMING Video Card ($209.55 @ Amazon)
Case: Cooler Master - MasterBox Q300L MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($38.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Power Supply: Corsair - CX (2017) 450W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($44.99 @ Amazon)
Keyboard: Logitech - MK200 Wired Slim Keyboard w/Optical Mouse ($19.57 @ Newegg)
Total: $651.44
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-05-11 00:19 EDT-0400


So unless someone absolutely needs that DVD drive, which no one does anymore, and WiFi, spending the time and effort to build you own system has benefits.

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-7400-vs-Intel-Core-i3-8100/3886vs3942
Tardy to the party. PEB posted the GTX 1060 3GB above with a massive price drop that was literally just made available Thursday morning (entry was hovering around $280-$300 before same as the 6GB variant), making this build at this price possible, when for the past year or so the $719 for the i5-7400 variant of that CPPC build also put this GTX 1060 / RX 580 class of gaming power out of reach for custom building (particularly before the release of Coffee Lake).
6GB price appears to have already gone back up, but that 3GB price is the first normalish price I've seen on a new 1060 3GB since last January or February.

People will start building again.
 
scdkey is not an officially authorized reseller of Microsoft keys. There is no such thing. Microsoft alone permits the sale of the software (its keys) in this fashion.

Meant to say using Windows 10 without a key, which Microsoft does allow. It may break there terms of service, suggesting they don't allow it, but you can download and use Window 10 without a key. They have the power to very easily stop that but choose not to. Until they do there is little reason to buy a key at all. Well unless you get sick of the water mark.

You nerfed your build, then called it the "same". Later you tried to argue the virtues on expansion when you couldn't match the price on the 75W GPU add-on builds. I pointed this out to demonstrate how you subjectively manipulate the philosophical virtue of what constitutes "value" in order to favor the custom build, and how that reflects a confirmation bias.

I explained why I did not feel having 4 RAM slots was important. You are not even arguing against that.

Except that it becomes a more weighted consideration when you're only a few months out from a new architectural generation being released when that only occurs every 18-24 months. This one will be closer to 2 1/2 years since the GTX 10 series debuted by the time they actually get it out.

Agreed, of course waiting as such you are going to be wait less time if you build your own.


This is silly. They are valuable precisely because they'll drive new PC gamers to those resources. They force you to learn the major different components, and figure out value (using PCPP isn't mutually exclusive to enlisting the services of those sites, and is in fact a wonderful baseline reference for comparison to any build you assemble on those websites).

It does not force anyone to learn the difference in components. There is a reason those site have builds that are overpriced and have power supplies larger then needed. They are counting on some people to see higher numbers and think that always means better.

Tardy to the party. PEB posted the GTX 1060 3GB above with a massive price drop that was literally just made available Thursday morning (entry was hovering around $280-$300 before same as the 6GB variant), making this build at this price possible, when for the past year or so the $719 for the i5-7400 variant of that CPPC build also put this GTX 1060 / RX 580 class of gaming power out of reach for custom building (particularly before the release of Coffee Lake).

Yup, and I stated that while GPU prices were high it was not a good time to build a PC. Of course we are not talking about the past right now are we?
 
Meant to say using Windows 10 without a key, which Microsoft does allow. It may break there terms of service, suggesting they don't allow it, but you can download and use Window 10 without a key. They have the power to very easily stop that but choose not to. Until they do there is little reason to buy a key at all. Well unless you get sick of the water mark.
It's pseudo-piracy without a guaranteed product. Concession accepted.
I explained why I did not feel having 4 RAM slots was important. You are not even arguing against that.
Because it makes expansion more costly and laborious.
Agreed, of course waiting as such you are going to be wait less time if you build your own.
Concession accepted.
It does not force anyone to learn the difference in components. There is a reason those site have builds that are overpriced and have power supplies larger then needed. They are counting on some people to see higher numbers and think that always means better.
Yes, it does, or you don't understand what you're putting together. One familiarizes oneself with gaming hardware on a component by component basis.
Yup, and I stated that while GPU prices were high it was not a good time to build a PC. Of course we are not talking about the past right now are we?
And yet we were inhabiting that past just in this thread.
 
I overpaid for a prebuilt, but am still happy with my PC and its performance.
 
It's pseudo-piracy without a guaranteed product. Concession accepted.

As soon as you start that "Concessions accepted" BS it is clear to everyone you have no argument.

Because it makes expansion more costly and laborious.

So does buying more RAM and finding out it will not work with your current kit.

Concession accepted.

Again, you simply have no argument.

Yes, it does, or you don't understand what you're putting together. One familiarizes oneself with gaming hardware on a component by component basis.

Which is why those site have pre-packaged deals. Even with the customizer it is set up in a way that simply makes more expensive seem better.

And yet we were inhabiting that past just in this thread.

HAHA...no.
 
if one builds a bitchin gaming pc, how long on average can they expect the machine to be of use before it starts becoming obsolete? 2 years? longer?
 
if one builds a bitchin gaming pc, how long on average can they expect the machine to be of use before it starts becoming obsolete? 2 years? longer?

That depends on a lot of things. If you were to spend top dollar and get the best of everything, as much as there is such a thing, and you are gaming at 4K resolution perhaps you could get 3-4 years out of it. For the same PC gaming at 1080p you would get many more years before having to upgrade. It all depends on what you are doing with it and what you feel is obsolete.
 
if one builds a bitchin gaming pc, how long on average can they expect the machine to be of use before it starts becoming obsolete? 2 years? longer?

Depends on what you consider "obsolete".

My I5-2500k system was built in 2012, and the only thing Ive upgraded on it are a new graphics card (GTX 970) and a SSD... it still shreds everything at max/near max in 1920x1080 60hz.

The people who complain about having to upgrade every year are idiots who buy cheap components or prebuilts that barely meet the recommended specs of current games, console gamers listening to those whiners/trolling, or Bleeding edge PC zealots who think high benchmark scores matter more than actual gameplay performance.
 
Depends on what you consider "obsolete".

My I5-2500k system was built in 2012, and the only thing Ive upgraded on it are a new graphics card (GTX 970) and a SSD... it still shreds everything at max/near max in 1920x1080 60hz.

The people who complain about having to upgrade every year are idiots who buy cheap components or prebuilts that barely meet the recommended specs of current games, console gamers listening to those whiners/trolling, or Bleeding edge PC zealots who think high benchmark scores matter more than actual gameplay performance.


how much would a gaming pc like that set one back on average?
 
how much would a gaming pc like that set one back on average?

The problem right now is that due to cryptomining, ram and gfx card prices are out of control and prices will probably never return to where they used to be.

A high end system that will shred games for years will run you around $1200-1600 today, $400 of that is a result of cryptominers. Mind you, that is not including software, monitor(s) keyboard, mouse, etc... that is simply the tower and internals.

While you can get away with a pre-built system in the $800-1k range, you're going to suffer down the road and run into the problem of limited upgradeability requiring a full system replacement, rather than tossing some more ram/new gfx card with a larger initial investment/newer components.
 
The problem right now is that due to cryptomining, ram and gfx card prices are out of control and prices will probably never return to where they used to be.

A high end system that will shred games for years will run you around $1200-1600 today, $400 of that is a result of cryptominers. Mind you, that is not including software, monitor(s) keyboard, mouse, etc... that is simply the tower and internals.

While you can get away with a pre-built system in the $800-1k range, you're going to suffer down the road and run into the problem of limited upgradeability requiring a full system replacement, rather than tossing some more ram/new gfx card with a larger initial investment/newer components.

cool cool.

i appreciate the information. and that sucks about the cost increase because of cryptomining...

if i ever take the plunge towards building a nice gaming pc, i'll be sure to hit up this forum too.
thanks again.
 
It was before because of the miners but that fad is finally over and prices are dropping.

I would dive in it now. You can get a 1060 6B for 300$ with rebate. Before these cards upwards to 500+...

PICS027_2018_05_14_17_08_52.png
 
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