Why Karate isn't effective for self defense

[SummerStriker]

This is precisely what's wrong with the full-contact-sparring-makes-you-strong mentality.

When I said this starting a year ago, well I'll let you fill in the blank (no comic books, pls.).

KarateStylist

While I'm not for full contact fighting, you can hit some people pretty god damned hard without snapping someone's head back or popping a rib. If you get good control, you can throw with more intensity, pull it, still hit hard, and not rock the head. In my opinion, that is the ideal training intensity.

It has to be hard enough for full realistic defense and cause enough impact for pain and fear, but no injury. I think sparring is necessary though.

 

[SAAMAG]

While I'm not for full contact fighting, you can hit some people pretty god damned hard without snapping someone's head back or popping a rib. If you get good control, you can throw with more intensity, pull it, still hit hard, and not rock the head. In my opinion, that is the ideal training intensity.

It has to be hard enough for full realistic defense and cause enough impact for pain and fear, but no injury. I think sparring is necessary though.

Yes, it needs to be hard enough to keep people honest. If you ONLY do Thai-like sparring where it's more about timing, distance, flow, and etcetera then you won't know definitively if what you do works or what was truly successful in an exchange. Keep in mind that Thai's spar this way because they fight frequently, and so they don't need to spar "hard" in between fights. It ends up being counter productive and they may get hurt in between fights which is also no good. For people who aren't fighting for their gym to bring in money, a hard spar once in a while is a good thing because it gives you honest feedback as to what is actually working for you and what is not. It's a bullshit meter of sorts. You can't say "oh I would have gotten you" or "my hit would have stopped your hit or take down attempt or whatever"--because you either did or you didn't and that will be evident when harder contact is part of that equation.

So while the ippon drill (one-step sparring drill) has its place to develop instantaneous / spontaneous reaction, doing it too much gives one a skewed sense of reality and a produces a bad habit of stopping just after contact is made when done in lieu of continuous contact sparring.

They both have reasons for existing, and it's best to have all the elements...not just some in your training. Work on different things. Come at it from different perspectives, try several proven methods of training. Use what WORKS. That's key.

 

[Jukai]

HERE YOU GO.... GIVE DW A CALL....

These guys are doing what you say we should be doing.... send 'em right over to Tuff, etc....

What you do = claim of success.... RIGHT???

Ok, so you posted a video of Frode looking pretty solid sparring.

Now the counterpoint: Post a video of you beating up those golden glove boxers after you've been doing one-step katas. If you look better, clearly you have the best way to spar.

Unless you want to run away again...

 

[KarateStylist]

1. Ok, so you posted a video of Frode looking pretty solid sparring.

2. Now the counterpoint: Post a video of you beating up those golden glove boxers after you've been doing one-step katas. If you look better, clearly you have the best way to spar.

3. Unless you want to run away again...

On 1., Frode & Co. looked great. Can see why the pride is taken....

On 2., I'd say, "...never try to counter a counter striker...:" but hey, it does work. Props to you. Do you use those 1-liner's like, "If you look better, etc...." to impress young high-school girls? REally, come'on now....

On 3., "Unless you want to run away again..." Have to really think on that one....

See follow up postVVV

KarateStylist

 

[KarateStylist]

1. While I'm not for full contact fighting, you can hit some people pretty god damned hard without snapping someone's head back or popping a rib. If you get good control, you can throw with more intensity, pull it, still hit hard, and not rock the head. In my opinion, that is the ideal training intensity.

2. It has to be hard enough for full realistic defense and cause enough impact for pain and fear, but no injury. I think sparring is necessary though.

1. Benefit of Controlled, Hard Hitting. I'm with you that there is definitely room, a place in traditional for hard contact.

2. Realistic But Safe. To the head, I'd say no in all instances. The benefit of testing your self or training against resistance is to provide feedback on your strength & form. Obviously the lone practice against 'air' has the limitation of pitting yourself against a complete void.

So why, starting back in China, do traditional martial artists train against a void?

KarateStylist

 

[SummerStriker]

Most opponents try to hit people in the head. Lots of your training needs to be for that. Having your face touched is taboo and jarring. If you don't undergo stiff and regular threats to your head, you will crumple in a fight.

I agree with D.I. : 1/3 of your training should be in the air, 1/3 with a partner, and 1/3 sparring. I get WAY more void time than anything else. Because of schedules. I think it gives me better technique. I'd still love more contact.

 

[KarateStylist]

1. Most opponents try to hit people in the head. Lots of your training needs to be for that. Having your face touched is taboo and jarring. If you don't undergo stiff and regular threats to your head, you will crumple in a fight.

2. I agree with D.I. : 1/3 of your training should be in the air, 1/3 with a partner, and 1/3 sparring. I get WAY more void time than anything else. Because of schedules. I think it gives me better technique. I'd still love more contact.

1. Head Hit or Crumple. I have mental discipline. You mean, "...you [yourself][sic] will crumple...."

2. Void %. An open question. I think the 1-steps, for me, overcome the disadvantages of the heavy amount of solo Kihon practice.... Better technique, mentally, is the reason for the void practice. It's about gaining control of yourself.... isometrics, developing the internal muscular strengths....

Too much solo practice as you advance is bad.

I like the free sparring when I've prepared....

KarateStylist

 

[Bennosuke]

1. Head Hit or Crumple. I have mental discipline. You mean, "...you [yourself][sic] will crumple...."

KarateStylist

Mental discipline has little to do with with resisting blunt force to the cranium. Maybe avoiding it sure, but a concussion is a concussion. There's nothing you can do about that.

 

[SummerStriker]

Mental discipline has little to do with with resisting blunt force to the cranium. Maybe avoiding it sure, but a concussion is a concussion. There's nothing you can do about that.

That isn't so much what I mean. Sure, you can get more used to the impact, but I'm more talking about the mental side of it.

People do all sorts of things when you touch their face. They jump back, push their hands out, freeze, get mad, get upset - cry or quit, think they are hurt when they really aren't ect...

In my experience, you can't improve these problems without facing it head on by having people attack your head. Karate Stylist believes the general discipline he has from doing kata makes him able to deal with it, without experiencing it first.

I think that's a hard sell, because I've never personally sparred with someone who did well the first time he was punched in the face.

 

[Bennosuke]

OK, I read crumple as falling unconciouss, rather than lose one's cool.

 

[SummerStriker]

OK, I read crumple as falling unconciouss, rather than lose one's cool.

In my experience, people that lose their cool from getting hit usually end up hurt soon their after.

 

[Bennosuke]

Agreed, I simply took the word crumple literally.

 

[SAAMAG]

I'm glad I put my old man glasses on...I thought you guys were typing CREAMPIE!

 

[The Enigma]

Ok the first 17 pages were too long. But I'm not sure whether it's been said but Wado-Ryu katas are practical if u look at the bunkai. And also how is shotokan and kyokushinkai impractical?

 

[Jukai]

On 1., Frode & Co. looked great. Can see why the pride is taken....

On 2., I'd say, "...never try to counter a counter striker...:" but hey, it does work. Props to you. Do you use those 1-liner's like, "If you look better, etc...." to impress young high-school girls? REally, come'on now....

On 3., "Unless you want to run away again..." Have to really think on that one....

See follow up postVVV

Nice backtracking your insult to Frode. How is this guy not banned yet?

 

[The Enigma]

Nice backtracking your insult to Frode. How is this guy not banned yet?

Not sure man. Been here for 2 days and I can tell you all hate him

 

[Bennosuke]

I'm glad I put my old man glasses on...I thought you guys were typing CREAMPIE!

Vision problem, or have pastries on the mind, or just plain dirty?:icon_twis

 

[Tired_Yeti]

Here's a bit of an article I came across....what are your thoughts on it?

I've spent sometime on YouTube viewing street fight videos made on camera phones. Not staged stuff; actual fights. The kind that get the police responding. Well, what I've noticed is that the vast majority of Americans resort to western boxing in their fights with a few tossing in some BJJ/MA style grappling. Once the fight goes to the ground, most people continue to punch the head and only one guy used a rear naked choke. No one used any joint locks (including arm bars). In all the hours of video I watched, I noticed that anyone who used Karate or Kung Fu always won their fight. Most often throughout the fights, a solid boxing style punch was delivered to an unguarded jaw resulting in a knockout but; otherwise, whenever traditional/Asian martial arts were used it won. I saw one fight where a white guy was clearly a shaolin Kung Fu practictioner. He looked rather ridiculous moving around in his stances, until he unleashed his technique and knocked some black thug out cold in a second. One that surprised me was a fight in a park or bike trail where some guy tried to grab another which resulted in a short shoving match when--one guy placed a textbook perfect Taekwondo kick to the other guy's head knocking him unconscious. Usually, I'd say Taekwondo is useless in a street fight, but...
So reality is that karate DOES seem to work when used in actual street fights.

I realize this is an MMA forum, but remember MMA is a SPORT. When you train for a sport, you fight like a sport. Of the videos where fights went to the ground and a fighter appeared to use jujitsu techniques, NOT ONE crushed a groin, NOT ONE did a joint lock, NOT ONE did an eye gouge. The sport fighters simply don't seem to think of these options when in a real fight.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

I can't read more than half of that. The guy sounds dumb. Just dumb.

Either that, or he simply hasn't had the idea that not ALL karate organizations train the same way come to him. He seems to have a clear idea of what all karate is like.

And what the hell was his point in referring to the level of violence in the world today? What relevance do large scale terrorist attacks have to an article about martial arts? What was he getting at, there?

I'm a karate homer and the first time I got into a real "fight"(club brawl working as a bouncer) I wasn't crane kicking, and judo chopping guys, however I was able to handle my self in a melee and move in a way that stemmed from the foot work and conditioning I got from years of karate.

Karate is a great striking style is it applicable for the street?.....well how many one on one fights have you seen in clubs,bars,college parties or what not?

KRAV maga is legit but....if you're a typical 22 year old at a club and some shit pops off do you really want to rip some drunk douche bags throat out? KRAV, combatives, McMap are for killing.

I'd much rather throw a nice overhand right knock a fool out and get to my car as quick as possible before his boys gang up and kick my ass,or I get arrested, or shot anyway my 2ct

 

[MadSquabbles500]

And continued....

we need cliff notes.