Will BJJ eventually devolve into a TMA?

It's not obviously, but wrestling techniques are much better suited at keeping someone down who is attempting to get back to their feet, since that almost never happens in sport bjj.

People do attempt to get to their feet sometimes in bjj, often after a sweep they try to avoid points or sometimes when they feel they guard isn't working or while escaping a pass.
A lot of MMA fighters I roll with try to stand up because their guards are trash.
 
Sport vs Self defense is not the problem. The problem with TMA is that it isn’t practiced regularly against opponents that are resisting.

/Thread, IMHO.

Judo is a TMA, and no one who's ever been thrown by a good Judoka doubts how powerful and effective it is. Some of the most dangerous Arts, for example, Muay Thai, are also Sports. It's the way the Art is trained that determines how effective it is.
 
People do attempt to get to their feet sometimes in bjj, often after a sweep they try to avoid points or sometimes when they feel they guard isn't working or while escaping a pass.
A lot of MMA fighters I roll with try to stand up because their guards are trash.

True but they are getting to their feet to re-engage in a top position. They aren't getting to their feet to disengage entirely.

MMA fighters choose to hit a stand up more in MMA than rely on guard, not because their guard is trash, but because even if you have a great guard, it's still an inferior/dangerous position in MMA, or because they are trying to disengage from grappling to engage in stand up striking.
 
I was referring more to the TD itself, although I stand by my statement that grappling someone who is trying to diaendise is different than grappling an opponent that is engaging in the grappling exchange.

A competitive TKD/karate practioner will have a very good understanding of distance and timing. Something that is essential in securing a TD when the threat of strikes are present.

If you don't even understand wrestling distance and timing, you are going to have an even harder time managing that when punches and kicks are flying at your face. Sport bjj is filled with bjj browns and blacks that no Jack all about wrestling.

I'm not trying to say TKD pwns bjj, what I'm trying to say is a lot of bjj players greatly overestimate their prowess in a freestyle type of fight. Assuming that because they know some slick ground techniques, they will be able to easily secure a TD and dominant ground position on a game opponent with striking skills.

We've already seen the videos of BJJ vs strikers and we all know the outcome. If your point is that not every single person who trains BJJ will win against a striker well then ok we get it, I don't think anyone thought that was the case to begin with.
 
MMA fighters choose to hit a stand up more in MMA than rely on guard, not because their guard is trash, but because even if you have a great guard, it's still an inferior/dangerous position in MMA, or because they are trying to disengage from grappling to engage in stand up striking.

Sure in a MMA contest standing up makes sense.
I mean most of the fighters I grappled with had bad guards and where (unsucesfuly) trying to stand up because when rolling.
Any way the main problem with BJJ vs pure striker setting is that BJJ doesn't address stand up striking.
 
i think you're confusing MMA with real life. An average wrestler with no other experience will get submitted eventually (or quickly) by an average BJJ guy. We've all seen this scenario play out time after time in our own gyms where a guy with wrestling experience takes his first classes and gets his back taken or triangled or guillotined or kimura'd over and over.

I think you're confusing controlled training in a gym with real life, where there is pavement and striking. MMA is a closer comparison to a real life interaction than rolling on the mats. Citing experience in the gym where wrestlers get submitted is meaningless, because it's done in a controlled environment that severely limits some of the tools a wrestler could use in a real life altercation; ie punching, take-down defense, slamming, control of top position combined with strikes. A sport BJJ practitioner would be lucky to still be conscious by the time they got it to the ground.

Also I said "average" BJJ practitioner vs. "average" wrestler because of the way the two sports are trained. The "average" wrestler is in much better shape and stronger than the "average" BJJ practitioner, because they train much harder (on "average"). Sport BJJ practitioners do not usually have competent take downs or take down defense. Maybe against the average joe, not against a wrestler of equal experience level. Sport BJJ makes no sense to me as BJJ was originally developed to fill the holes in other fight styles, now it trains one niche area of fighting while ignoring all other aspects of fighting. I've been training BJJ for 12 years, and the sport aspect of it is watering down the effectiveness of the art.

It's not a stretch of the imagination to see why someone who controls where the fight takes place and is in all likeliness stronger and more athletic, is going to win in a fight. Here's a good example of what a wrestler could do if the rules allow him to utilize his skill-set. Notice this is also on soft mats with no striking involved, imagine what kind of shape the BJJ guy would be in if this took place on concrete.

 
I think we're beating a dead horse here. We all agree that BJJ is no longer the only answer, but rather, part of the answer. Sure. People deride BJJ for it's lack of striking (which was always pretty shit), and bad takedowns/guardpulling (which are probably in the worst state they've ever been in). Fair enough. I also think we should have some sort of system for fighting off a wall/cage/barricade, but there are enterprising jiu jitsuers who have done that. I think his name is Bjorn, his instructional seems rad. So on to other concerns.

But what are, as the BJJ community, going to do about it? I propose we make some modifications to our art, and then conduct a second BJJihad, declaring holy grappling war against those of other "faiths" (i.e., strikers, eugh).

Now, in the old days, the Gracie family would send envoys out to other arts to learn their secrets and techniques, and bring them home to BJJ. For example I believe Rolls trained in Sambo/Judo and brought the secret tech home. Wrestlers have been imported. I think it's time we do that again.

However, we can't just incorporate any old systems. If we import, for example, Muay Thai, then we're no better than those awful strikers who currently mock us. And to lower ourselves to the level of strikers, well, that's when we've truly lost. No, instead, we need to import a grappling style, one that we could confidently customize to fit our own needs. One that has both takedowns, and some manner of striking (though without becoming...strikers, eugh).

Some would say Sambo, which isn't a bad idea. But those closed fists of theirs stink of boxing. Repulsive. Much like the noble art of combat jiu jitsu, which has open hand slaps, I would think palm strikes fit the BJJ'er best. It keeps our gentle hands safe, ready for gripping on the gi, where they so rightfully belong. It was an old NHB staple from mount. It can turn into a grip from a strike, or a collar tie, or be used to position someone for something. Yes, we can all agree. Palm strikes are the way to go. They did it in pancrase, and pancrase was pretty much custom made for grapplers.

High kicks are obviously suicide. Low, sweeping kicks, to facilitate a takedown? Sure. But no kicks above the waist.

As for takedowns, there's a wide variety from which to choose. Judo is our weird grandfather art, but they already think they're better than us. Also their rules suck. Sambo has better rules, but relies heavily on the jacket as well, so what happens in nogi? Wrestling seems great, but if you're wearing a gi/belt, you should have some sort of system for taking advantage of a belt grip. Even on the street, people wear pants. If you're fighting someone who isn't wearing pants, I would argue you have bigger life concerns to figure out.

I propose going back to our Japanese roots; to an antecedent of Judo. Something that combines open hand palm strikes, below the waist leg attacks, and takedowns, with inherent strategies for nogi, and for when a belt grip is available.

SUMO.

Hell, Lyoto Machida combined BJJ and Sumo, and he was a UFC Champion. How else could Lyoto Machida make his silly martial art of karate work? Think about it guys. The way forward, the way to drag BJJ into the present, is to import sumo. Could unify the rules of CJJ and BJJ, with open palms legal anywhere, standing or on the ground. It worked for Bas Rutten. The charging/pushing is an excellent way to get to the wall/cage, which is practically like a vertical ground. Not to mention you get to wear the fashionable mawashi, which comes in a variety of colors. Think about it guys. Think about it.

Alternate idea: Start calling takedowns "sweeps" and call stand up sparring "standing guard"??
 
What a joke?
He claimed that he does bjj for twelve years and wrestling is better.

Go train wrestling. Lol
 
I think you're confusing controlled training in a gym with real life, where there is pavement and striking. MMA is a closer comparison to a real life interaction than rolling on the mats. Citing experience in the gym where wrestlers get submitted is meaningless, because it's done in a controlled environment that severely limits some of the tools a wrestler could use in a real life altercation; ie punching, take-down defense, slamming, control of top position combined with strikes. A sport BJJ practitioner would be lucky to still be conscious by the time they got it to the ground.

Also I said "average" BJJ practitioner vs. "average" wrestler because of the way the two sports are trained. The "average" wrestler is in much better shape and stronger than the "average" BJJ practitioner, because they train much harder (on "average"). Sport BJJ practitioners do not usually have competent take downs or take down defense. Maybe against the average joe, not against a wrestler of equal experience level. Sport BJJ makes no sense to me as BJJ was originally developed to fill the holes in other fight styles, now it trains one niche area of fighting while ignoring all other aspects of fighting. I've been training BJJ for 12 years, and the sport aspect of it is watering down the effectiveness of the art.

It's not a stretch of the imagination to see why someone who controls where the fight takes place and is in all likeliness stronger and more athletic, is going to win in a fight. Here's a good example of what a wrestler could do if the rules allow him to utilize his skill-set. Notice this is also on soft mats with no striking involved, imagine what kind of shape the BJJ guy would be in if this took place on concrete.



come on man, don't bring "da streetz" conjectures into this.
 
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Rickson is delusional a competitive purple belt would smash a black belt of 10 years ago . I've been training for 12 years so I know how much BJJ has evolved .
So your telling me a purple belt will smash bj penn who’s been a black belt for over 10 years. You are really stupid aren’t you. Lol
 
So your telling me a purple belt will smash bj penn who’s been a black belt for over 10 years. You are really stupid aren’t you. Lol
Nah, he is saying that current competitive purple belts have better skills than the black belts in 2008.
It is a surprise, the sport and the pool of talents has dramatically increased in ten years.
Of course, dropping bj pen name is a hard task as he was the first American to win a world title in bjj I think.
 
So your telling me a purple belt will smash bj penn who’s been a black belt for over 10 years. You are really stupid aren’t you. Lol
Read it again dumb shit
 
What a joke?
He claimed that he does bjj for twelve years and wrestling is better.

Go train wrestling. Lol
I do train wrestling, as well as boxing, muay thai, and put it all together with MMA. I'm a brown belt in BJJ and one of the benefits of training an art so long (with an open mind) is you quickly realize the weaknesses of those arts. Which is why cross-training is so important. BJJ is a necessary part of MMA and fighting, but it's not the be all-end-all art for self-defense like some sport BJJ or guys that only train BJJ think it is, and it's not even the preferred art for it IMHO if it's not trained properly (ie sports guys). Boxers, muay thai fighters, and wrestlers have a mental/physical toughness that used to be present in BJJ (ie the Rickson/Royce days), but is now being forgotten. The training and competitions between them those arts are completely different now. I've met 10 year olds in thailand that are tougher than the majority of the sport-BJJ guys I've trained with.
 
come on man, don't bring "da streetz" conjectures into this.
Why not when your entire post was a conjecture? You're arguing that wrestlers coming into a BJJ gym and getting submitted somehow means that BJJ guys gain the edge in a situation where the rules and environment are completely different, how does that make any sense? Negating the gigantic impact that adding strikes has on changing the situation, if wrestlers don't have to start on the ground and are more focused on evading, keeping things standing, and slamming, they're going to do a lot better than in an artificial gym situation where they start on their knees. Back in the early days of BJJ tournaments I saw wrestlers and judo guys enter tournaments and KO several people with slams. Now that you get DQ'd for doing that it can't happen, but it doesn't mean that's no longer something you have to worry about in a real life altercation.

Adding strikes completely changes BJJ itself, let alone how drastically it changes standing grappling. There are a lot of positions that are useless, or at the very least you are no longer comfortable sitting in, when strikes are involved. Striking completely opens up the ground-grappling game, so you have to be aware of their impact. Now add in standing strikes and someone who's competent at standing grappling and allow them to throw strikes, how much damage do you think a BJJ guy is going to absorb trying to get the fight to the ground? Would he even be able to do it? I use a hybrid of wrestling and thai-clinch to stop NCAA collegiate wrestlers from taking me down, where I can constantly knee/eblow them and where they have to take a few strikes first to even close the distance to shoot. How's a BJJ guy with extremely limited standing grappling experience going to fair in that situation? Especially if they don't cross-train with people that are competent in those areas? You can see how that plays our in the previous video I posted, without even adding strikes.

The rule-sets you are competing in determine the techniques that will be used and developed. The more restrictive a rule-set, the less effective that art is in a self-defense situation. The closest simulation we have to a real-life altercation that can be practiced safely is MMA, which has to be split into several different arts to be trained effectively and is ever evolving. Even that rule-set has limitations that diminish it's effectiveness; ie if headbutts were allowed, grappling would be completely different, can you imagine someone in your guard being allowed to control your hips and headbutt you non stop? Or what if striking to the back of the head was allowed? Even in MMA's rule-set you see people giving up the back to avoid strikes and attempt to escape because they're protected from blows to the back of the head or the spinal column. Take out that rule and nobody would ever give their back up again. But since MMA is a sport, it has to have these rules to preserve the health of it's athletes.

The best you can do is cross-train in many disciplines that are trained against fully resisting opponents, and compete in competitions with less restricting rule-sets (ie the opposite direction sport BJJ is going).
 
Why not when your entire post was a conjecture? You're arguing that wrestlers coming into a BJJ gym and getting submitted somehow means that BJJ guys gain the edge in a situation where the rules and environment are completely different, how does that make any sense? Negating the gigantic impact that adding strikes has on changing the situation, if wrestlers don't have to start on the ground and are more focused on evading, keeping things standing, and slamming, they're going to do a lot better than in an artificial gym situation where they start on their knees. Back in the early days of BJJ tournaments I saw wrestlers and judo guys enter tournaments and KO several people with slams. Now that you get DQ'd for doing that it can't happen, but it doesn't mean that's no longer something you have to worry about in a real life altercation.

Adding strikes completely changes BJJ itself, let alone how drastically it changes standing grappling. There are a lot of positions that are useless, or at the very least you are no longer comfortable sitting in, when strikes are involved. Striking completely opens up the ground-grappling game, so you have to be aware of their impact. Now add in standing strikes and someone who's competent at standing grappling and allow them to throw strikes, how much damage do you think a BJJ guy is going to absorb trying to get the fight to the ground? Would he even be able to do it? I use a hybrid of wrestling and thai-clinch to stop NCAA collegiate wrestlers from taking me down, where I can constantly knee/eblow them and where they have to take a few strikes first to even close the distance to shoot. How's a BJJ guy with extremely limited standing grappling experience going to fair in that situation? Especially if they don't cross-train with people that are competent in those areas? You can see how that plays our in the previous video I posted, without even adding strikes.

The rule-sets you are competing in determine the techniques that will be used and developed. The more restrictive a rule-set, the less effective that art is in a self-defense situation. The closest simulation we have to a real-life altercation that can be practiced safely is MMA, which has to be split into several different arts to be trained effectively and is ever evolving. Even that rule-set has limitations that diminish it's effectiveness; ie if headbutts were allowed, grappling would be completely different, can you imagine someone in your guard being allowed to control your hips and headbutt you non stop? Or what if striking to the back of the head was allowed? Even in MMA's rule-set you see people giving up the back to avoid strikes and attempt to escape because they're protected from blows to the back of the head or the spinal column. Take out that rule and nobody would ever give their back up again. But since MMA is a sport, it has to have these rules to preserve the health of it's athletes.

The best you can do is cross-train in many disciplines that are trained against fully resisting opponents, and compete in competitions with less restricting rule-sets (ie the opposite direction sport BJJ is going).

not sure the point you're making here, friend. i think you're exaggerating the deadliness of wrestling takedowns, as well as the "extremely limited" standup of BJJ guys (and understating the edge they get from the guard). there's been many many wrestling vs. bjj matchups over the years under a wide variety of engagements, so no need to cherry pick examples.
 
Nah, he is saying that current competitive purple belts have better skills than the black belts in 2008.
It is a surprise, the sport and the pool of talents has dramatically increased in ten years.
Of course, dropping bj pen name is a hard task as he was the first American to win a world title in bjj I think.
I agree that it has evolved but thats a huge stretch. I also don’t agree with that. He’s obviously just picking any belt rank to make a point but shit, he could’ve at least said a brown belt. I could name some black belts of 10 years ago that no purple belt will beat.
 
I agree that it has evolved but thats a huge stretch. I also don’t agree with that. He’s obviously just picking any belt rank to make a point but shit, he could’ve at least said a brown belt. I could name some black belts of 10 years ago that no purple belt will beat.

Comparing in bjj is just impossible.
Because everyone is different
There seems to be lot of threads recently that diminishing the skills of bjj BB.
You know like...a modern competitive blue belt is better than a BB.....an untrained person is better than a sport bjj BB....etc. .
 
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