Wind and long range aiming

YeahBee

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Any riflemen out there? I was watching the eminent movie Sniper with Tom Berenger and one thing got me wondering.

Snipers in movies always look at something moving in the wind near the target to determine their settings for their scope. well my question is this if the range is long enough (people have been known to snipe targets over 1000 meters away) couldn't the wind conditions be significantly different over such a long distance?

Why is the wind at the target most important?
 
mods feel free to delete got my answer in mayberry
 
Any riflemen out there? I was watching the eminent movie Sniper with Tom Berenger and one thing got me wondering.

Snipers in movies always look at something moving in the wind near the target to determine their settings for their scope. well my question is this if the range is long enough (people have been known to snipe targets over 1000 meters away) couldn't the wind conditions be significantly different over such a long distance?

Why is the wind at the target most important?

Hey! I heard crickets chirping and thought I'd check it out! :icon_chee

I think the notion that wind is the Numero Uno, hands-down external variable that can queer an otherwise good rifle shot is subjective; actually, I'd say it's situational, and varies quite a bit.

Let's just say you're a sniper trying to drill a hole in someone far, far away. If it's windy, wind may be your biggest problem. Let's say it's a perfectly still day, with nothing that could be seriously regarded as "wind" blowing around but it's overcast and raining like hell; the effect of cloud cover on ambient light could be a problem, and the cumulative effect of rains drops colliding with your bullet as it's en route to the target almost certainly will be your biggest concern. Other troops you don't want to be dead as badly and not worth the risk of compromising your location may keep moving between you and the objective you had in your crosshairs.

Terrain or foliage might also obscure the shot and bring about the necessity of moving to an alternate vantage point from which to reacquire your mark; this doesn't seem like a big deal until you bear in mind that upon reaching a point where you have a clear view of the target, the target may suddenly get a clear view of you as well if you slip up and somehow announce your presence. This may cause the target to beat feet behind the first thing that provides decent cover from small-arms fire. You may now be kissing the target, and the days or weeks you spent enduring every miserable condition nature has put in your path methodically locating him, stalking him, and finding a got spot to lay low until you kill him bye-bye, along with the hope of completing your assigned mission. If he or his minions have a radio handy with which to call in tank fire, mortars, artillery, or close air support, the next thing you may find yourself kissing good-bye might be your own ass when your general location and everything around it gets the shit pummelled out of it.

For this reason, snipers tend to move about at a rate of speed that requires time-lapse photography to make it noticeable. Legendary Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock once low-crawled into the center of a field that was flat and lacked any decent coverage to take out a target in that manner.

A profusion of other naturally-occurring factors may work against you, such as heat and barometric pressure. Your ability to "read" the terrain and the manner in which it may have on the report created by a hi-powered rifle may cloak your position or give it away. The way the barrel flexes as the bullet leaves it might affect the shot if the stock has not been given the necessary refinements a sniper may need, such as glass bedding under the part cradling the barrel.

ANd that's hardly the whole list. During the two or so weeks I spent as a boot on Parris Island during the marksmanship phase learning the bulk of all the stuff that's actually useful and worth knowing, discovered that minute errors such as assuming firing positions improperly, sloppy trigger-pulling, incorrectly acquiring your "sight picture" lining up the front and rear sights, and failure to practice good breath control (which mainly involves taking care to to shoot in between inhaling and exhaling instead of during, while taking care not to hold your breath until it begins to effect your eyesight) which may be forgiven at 200 yards will cause the shot to go wide of the mark at 500. At 1,000+...fuggeddaboutit.

During my stint, I made the acquaintence of a couple fellow Marines assigned to Scout/Sniper duty; the discipline required to tag targets 1,000 yards or more away is well in excess of the threshold for what most people consider anal-retentiveness; those guys learn to tune into the sound of their own heart so as to send the shot downrange in between beats.
 
Here is a repeat of the answer I posted to this question in Mayberry.



Any deflection at the starting point grows and grows over distance. This includes deflection caused by wind; wind moving the rifle and wind moving the bullet; plus rifle movement caused by: shooter or what have you.

I don't think wind at the target is your greatest concern.

The greatest concern combo in my experience is #1: the mirage, and #2: your zeros through the year.

To explain:

Mirage is the deflection of the target's image to the shooter. Some bullets resist wind deflection much better than others, for instance an 80grn 5.56mm match bullet has a ballistic co-efficient of about .430, a 180grn 7mm match bullet, (the one I shoot) has a BC of .698 what this means on the range is that at 600 meters with a cross wind of say 20-25mph the 5.56mm round can be blown off 18 inches from the center of the target. The 7mm round in the same conditions will be blown off center by about 8 inches. This equates to about two scoring rings.

That's just wind. Mirage on the other hand can push the image off from where it is actually located and you will then aim at a mark not really there. This effect is the same for the 5.56mm, the 7mm, or a howeitzer. If you aim off, you'll hit off, period. Make sense.

I recently discovered at this years Texas State Highpower Match that at the final slow fire stage at 600 yards, the mirage was actually blowing opposite the wind flags. I confirmed this by watching the fellow I was scoring for as he watched the range's wind flags and made his adjustments from shot to shot off them. While he was doing this, and floundering I might add, I farted with my spotting scope until I could see the wavy image just out in front of the target, (target was blury but I could see the wave texture quite good) As he would correct I'd watch the wave and 9 of 10 times the waves were going opposite the wind flag. This guy, a kid really was scratching his head big time and blasting shots all over. In the end the waves were giving a truer correction than the wind flags. Go figure.

when it was my turn I forgot about those wind flags and kept my spotter focused on that mirage and as a result shot in the top 3% on that stage in the match. Image as they say is everything....

#2 having a good bunch of zeros for all the distances is critical. Having a range detection device, be it maps, or laser devices is critical. And lastly understanding that a zero at 600 yards in January is going to be potentially quite different from one in August is everything.

The difference can be as much a 2minutes. if 1 minute equals 1 inch at 100 yards it grows to 6 inches at 600 yards. 2 minutes then would be 12 inches, and 12 inches one way or the other can mean a complete miss depending the size of the target.

So going back to the Sniper analogy, I suspect they are probably focusing on the mirage just in front of the target, and if this was a movie they called it wind so to be easier for the average joe to understand without a lead in splaination like the one above.

Hope this helps.
 
ANd that's hardly the whole list. During the two or so weeks I spent as a boot on Parris Island during the marksmanship phase learning the bulk of all the stuff that's actually useful and worth knowing, discovered that minute errors such as assuming firing positions improperly, sloppy trigger-pulling, incorrectly acquiring your "sight picture" lining up the front and rear sights, and failure to practice good breath control (which mainly involves taking care to to shoot in between inhaling and exhaling instead of during, while taking care not to hold your breath until it begins to effect your eyesight) which may be forgiven at 200 yards will cause the shot to go wide of the mark at 500. At 1,000+...fuggeddaboutit.

In short skill with a rifle is a martial art...
 
(people have been known to snipe targets over 1000 meters away) QUOTE]

Actually a 1000 meter shot is pretty routine for a well trained sniper. There are several confirmed kills of much greater distances.
SSGT Jim Gilliland in Iraq had a kill with a 7.62 (purported to be the longest with that caliber) of over 3/4 mile
A shot of 1800 meters was made in the Gulf War (nobody was credited by name, some snipers prefer to remain uncredited)
GYSGT Carlos Hatchcock made a confirmed kill of 2500 Yards (1.5 miles) in Viet Nam
And the longest confirmed kill by a sniper was-
Corporal Rob Furlong (Canada) during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan of 2430 Meters (it took 3 shots, missed the 1st, hit his pack the 2nd & dead on the 3rd) (check him out on Wikipedia).
Long story short; keep a low profile if you're bei9ng shot at by a well trained sniper, no matter how far away he is.
 
Any riflemen out there? I was watching the eminent movie Sniper with Tom Berenger and one thing got me wondering.

Snipers in movies always look at something moving in the wind near the target to determine their settings for their scope. well my question is this if the range is long enough (people have been known to snipe targets over 1000 meters away) couldn't the wind conditions be significantly different over such a long distance?

Why is the wind at the target most important?

On any given day at the right distance you can see the wind moving in one direction or another along the horizon..looks like waves--just follow the waves--

You can read wind speed and direction by using these "mirages", regardless of temperature.

Adjust windage and tradjectory accordingly.

I've taken shots at the parameters of effective range, and this technique works wonders (if you don't have a combat weatherman sitting right next to you, if you do just use him). Plus if you ever get to make the trip to florida, this is lesson #2 day 2 out of six weeks.
 
Hey! I heard crickets chirping and thought I'd check it out! :icon_chee

I think the notion that wind is the Numero Uno, hands-down external variable that can queer an otherwise good rifle shot is subjective; actually, I'd say it's situational, and varies quite a bit.

Let's just say you're a sniper trying to drill a hole in someone far, far away. If it's windy, wind may be your biggest problem. Let's say it's a perfectly still day, with nothing that could be seriously regarded as "wind" blowing around but it's overcast and raining like hell; the effect of cloud cover on ambient light could be a problem, and the cumulative effect of rains drops colliding with your bullet as it's en route to the target almost certainly will be your biggest concern. Other troops you don't want to be dead as badly and not worth the risk of compromising your location may keep moving between you and the objective you had in your crosshairs.

Terrain or foliage might also obscure the shot and bring about the necessity of moving to an alternate vantage point from which to reacquire your mark; this doesn't seem like a big deal until you bear in mind that upon reaching a point where you have a clear view of the target, the target may suddenly get a clear view of you as well if you slip up and somehow announce your presence. This may cause the target to beat feet behind the first thing that provides decent cover from small-arms fire. You may now be kissing the target, and the days or weeks you spent enduring every miserable condition nature has put in your path methodically locating him, stalking him, and finding a got spot to lay low until you kill him bye-bye, along with the hope of completing your assigned mission. If he or his minions have a radio handy with which to call in tank fire, mortars, artillery, or close air support, the next thing you may find yourself kissing good-bye might be your own ass when your general location and everything around it gets the shit pummelled out of it.

For this reason, snipers tend to move about at a rate of speed that requires time-lapse photography to make it noticeable. Legendary Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock once low-crawled into the center of a field that was flat and lacked any decent coverage to take out a target in that manner.

A profusion of other naturally-occurring factors may work against you, such as heat and barometric pressure. Your ability to "read" the terrain and the manner in which it may have on the report created by a hi-powered rifle may cloak your position or give it away. The way the barrel flexes as the bullet leaves it might affect the shot if the stock has not been given the necessary refinements a sniper may need, such as glass bedding under the part cradling the barrel.

ANd that's hardly the whole list. During the two or so weeks I spent as a boot on Parris Island during the marksmanship phase learning the bulk of all the stuff that's actually useful and worth knowing, discovered that minute errors such as assuming firing positions improperly, sloppy trigger-pulling, incorrectly acquiring your "sight picture" lining up the front and rear sights, and failure to practice good breath control (which mainly involves taking care to to shoot in between inhaling and exhaling instead of during, while taking care not to hold your breath until it begins to effect your eyesight) which may be forgiven at 200 yards will cause the shot to go wide of the mark at 500. At 1,000+...fuggeddaboutit.

During my stint, I made the acquaintence of a couple fellow Marines assigned to Scout/Sniper duty; the discipline required to tag targets 1,000 yards or more away is well in excess of the threshold for what most people consider anal-retentiveness; those guys learn to tune into the sound of their own heart so as to send the shot downrange in between beats.

I've seen guys popping over the counter supermarket downers to minimize cns response to external stimuli..
 
In short skill with a rifle is a martial art...

Indeed. Literally, as "martial" is defined one way as "of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior." And there is absolutely and art, and a science, to sniping.

Developing and refining an unusually high degree of skill at marksmanship is but one component, and the beginning, of being proficient at the snipers' craft. Plying that trade also requires mastery of things like the use of camoflauge, a high level of physical fitness, and a degree of self-discipline-- physical *AND* mental-- that is astonishing. And to top it all off, the sniper must have a sufficiently hard heart to put a target in his crosshairs, maybe even see his marks' face, and still pull the trigger at the moment of truth. A snipers' M.O. for killing the enemy is extremely personal compared to directing machinegun fire or artillery to a target.

I find that long-range shooting is also very meditative; there were times when I went to the rifle range for annual qualification and shot for score on chilly, overcast days as the rain came down and soaked my clothes while turning the turf beneath me into mud...and I noticed none of it, just my sight picture on the target and the sound of my own breathing,.
 
Indeed. Literally, as "martial" is defined one way as "of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior." And there is absolutely and art, and a science, to sniping.

Developing and refining an unusually high degree of skill at marksmanship is but one component, and the beginning, of being proficient at the snipers' craft. Plying that trade also requires mastery of things like the use of camoflauge, a high level of physical fitness, and a degree of self-discipline-- physical *AND* mental-- that is astonishing. And to top it all off, the sniper must have a sufficiently hard heart to put a target in his crosshairs, maybe even see his marks' face, and still pull the trigger at the moment of truth. A snipers' M.O. for killing the enemy is extremely personal compared to directing machinegun fire or artillery to a target.

I find that long-range shooting is also very meditative; there were times when I went to the rifle range for annual qualification and shot for score on chilly, overcast days as the rain came down and soaked my clothes while turning the turf beneath me into mud...and I noticed none of it, just my sight picture on the target and the sound of my own breathing,.

Have you ever thought of Taking up Highpower Rifle Competition? It sure beats golf and shit like that there. I've been doing it since 1989, and its truly a lifelong endeavor.

Ya Get to hob knob with some very fine folks, AMU team members, Airforce shooters, the Navy and of course the Marines.

Its a lot like Bruce Lee said, "when I started a punch was just a punch a kick was just a kick, afterwards a punch was more than a punch, a kick was more than a kick. Later on a punch was just a punch, a kick was just a kick."

I remember shooting a match in the rain at Camp Bullis San Antonio, where the rains was so heavy that at the standing 200 yard slow fire stage you could see the bullet plowing through the rain into the target, and the during rapid fire so much water was flying out as I was trying to shoot, that I couldn't even see where the target was anymore, and I remember remembering an episode from Kung-Fu where they were telling grasshopper some shit about just cause you can't see with your eyes doesn't mean you can't use all the other senses you have. And then I just had faith in my position, and natural point of aim, and shot all the shots, and fucking-A if they weren't good shots...

I shot a personal best and came in 3rd in that match. That was in Sept 1993. Still remember it. This year I got 1st Master Class and Match winner at 300 yards at the Texas State Highpower match, so I'm not entirely washed up yet.
 
Have you ever thought of Taking up Highpower Rifle Competition? It sure beats golf and shit like that there. I've been doing it since 1989, and its truly a lifelong endeavor.

Ya Get to hob knob with some very fine folks, AMU team members, Airforce shooters, the Navy and of course the Marines.

Its a lot like Bruce Lee said, "when I started a punch was just a punch a kick was just a kick, afterwards a punch was more than a punch, a kick was more than a kick. Later on a punch was just a punch, a kick was just a kick."

I remember shooting a match in the rain at Camp Bullis San Antonio, where the rains was so heavy that at the standing 200 yard slow fire stage you could see the bullet plowing through the rain into the target, and the during rapid fire so much water was flying out as I was trying to shoot, that I couldn't even see where the target was anymore, and I remember remembering an episode from Kung-Fu where they were telling grasshopper some shit about just cause you can't see with your eyes doesn't mean you can't use all the other senses you have. And then I just had faith in my position, and natural point of aim, and shot all the shots, and fucking-A if they weren't good shots...

I shot a personal best and came in 3rd in that match. That was in Sept 1993. Still remember it. This year I got 1st Master Class and Match winner at 300 yards at the Texas State Highpower match, so I'm not entirely washed up yet.

what kind of gear are you using? set up?
 
what kind of gear are you using? set up?

Here it be:

DSC07515.jpg


DSC07512.jpg


DSC07503.jpg


DSC07498.jpg


DSC07493.jpg


Winchester model 70 in 7mm-08. 150grn Sierra matchkings at 200 & 300 Yards, and 180grn Berger VLDs at 600 Yards and anything longer.

This Oct i'll shoot the State Service Rifle Championship with an Ar15 service junker, but before and afterwards I'll be shooting me bolt gun proper.
 
nice rifle ..here is mine
pix2155935093.jpg


pix2155935187.jpg




Remington 700 bully .308
Harris bipod
Leupold MK4
 
Remington 700 bully .308
Harris bipod
Leupold MK4

I got a similar type rig for hunting except I've got it in 30'06, (was a 6.5X284 before that) in a 1946 pre-64 model 70 action and a way too expensive custom stock, Krieger Stainless barrel with 1/10 4 groove.

The 6.5 barrel was done after 1500 rnds, and wasn't that much better than a 30 cal. I though about a straight 284 with the 180 vlds from berger as the bc on those things is .698, but in the end I went to the 30'06 because the brass was cheaper and I could push a 175grn vld bullet at 3000fps much easier than I could with a 308.

I went with the Burris Black Diamond Scope 6X24 with knobs and fine plex etc, blah blah.. It was only $550.00 as opposed to like $700-$800. for the leupold. My brother is a big fan of Leupold, I'm not so. I slapped a set of Ken Farrel tapered bases so I could get zeros probably out beyond 1500 yards, which I don't need but what the hell, that the way it ended up. Right now I've got a good set of zeros from 0-700 yards for the thing.

I go to more shooting matches than I do hunts so it stays in the closet a lot.

You ever tried an F-class long Range match before? That lead slinger you got looks like a prime candidate for it.
 
Remington 700 bully .308
Harris bipod
Leupold MK4

Question: Do you like shooting off a bipod?

I find I like a soft pack myself. Seems more versitile too.

Did you weight the back of that rifle any?
 
Question: Do you like shooting off a bipod?

I find I like a soft pack myself. Seems more versitile too.

Did you weight the back of that rifle any?

I didn't weight the gun, but the synthy stock has all the balance I could want, I do have a blackhawk cheekrest that adds a good amount of weight to the gun.

I shoot prone most of the time, and love using the bipod, when I am forced to use a bench or rail, I will use a fine grain leather sandbag...but my groups are much more consistent with the Harris (obviously this has something to do with firing position).
 
I got a similar type rig for hunting except I've got it in 30'06, (was a 6.5X284 before that) in a 1946 pre-64 model 70 action and a way too expensive custom stock, Krieger Stainless barrel with 1/10 4 groove.

The 6.5 barrel was done after 1500 rnds, and wasn't that much better than a 30 cal. I though about a straight 284 with the 180 vlds from berger as the bc on those things is .698, but in the end I went to the 30'06 because the brass was cheaper and I could push a 175grn vld bullet at 3000fps much easier than I could with a 308.

I went with the Burris Black Diamond Scope 6X24 with knobs and fine plex etc, blah blah.. It was only $550.00 as opposed to like $700-$800. for the leupold. My brother is a big fan of Leupold, I'm not so. I slapped a set of Ken Farrel tapered bases so I could get zeros probably out beyond 1500 yards, which I don't need but what the hell, that the way it ended up. Right now I've got a good set of zeros from 0-700 yards for the thing.

I go to more shooting matches than I do hunts so it stays in the closet a lot.

You ever tried an F-class long Range match before? That lead slinger you got looks like a prime candidate for it.


Never tried an nra sanctioned match, but we used to have 1,000 meter comps for fun in my BN

I've spent so much time on the .308 civi and the Mil 7.62x51 that I am absolute shit past 600 yards with the 300 win mag...funny how that works..since I'm using 150 gr Sierra 2125 soft point boat tail, I tend to get less Fps with the 308 (almost 3050 with 1x10) but am more familiar with the round and can make adjusments much easier.

I know that shooting the 7m gives you a flat shot, but I've learned on the .308 and it's hard to switch to a higher velocity round... like switching from a road bike to a mountain bike..same idea..different performance over distance....
 
nice rifle ..here is mine
pix2155935093.jpg


pix2155935187.jpg




Remington 700 bully .308
Harris bipod
Leupold MK4

Remington 700 bully .308 +
Harris bipod +
Leupold MK4
__________________
= Schweet! + "Gregster Is Jealous"

You, sir, are clearly a man serious about his tools and not afraid to spend the necessary bank to get them. Salud!

The closest thing to a piece that nice I ever shot was a Ruger Mini-14 which belonged to the father of a friend of mine who sold it to an ever closer friend of mine some years back.

The original owner shot on the Marine Corps team, competed in some Camp Perry matches, and did some NRA ones as a civilian. The specimen in question was tricked-out, tuned, and customized to the point where I had to wonder what original parts were left. It had glass-bedded composite stock, match-tuned trigger (zero creep, broke at a consistent 2.5 pounds of pull every time), match-grade bull barrel, and no iron sights...all aiming was done by a variable-powered 8x Leopuld scope, also tapped and mounted by an armorer.

As he (quite sadly, I might add) was forced to part with it and at least wanted to pass it on to someone who deserved to own it in the first place, Friend #1 sold it to Friend #2 for the jaw-droppingly ridiculous amount of $600. Deal of the fucking century.

I lament never getting it to a really serious range. At 150-200 yards, I could shoot offhand groups you could cover with a quarter.
 
Remington 700 bully .308 +
Harris bipod +
Leupold MK4
__________________
= Schweet! + "Gregster Is Jealous"

You, sir, are clearly a man serious about his tools and not afraid to spend the necessary bank to get them. Salud!

The closest thing to a piece that nice I ever shot was a Ruger Mini-14 which belonged to the father of a friend of mine who sold it to an ever closer friend of mine some years back.

The original owner shot on the Marine Corps team, competed in some Camp Perry matches, and did some NRA ones as a civilian. The specimen in question was tricked-out, tuned, and customized to the point where I had to wonder what original parts were left. It had glass-bedded composite stock, match-tuned trigger (zero creep, broke at a consistent 2.5 pounds of pull every time), match-grade bull barrel, and no iron sights...all aiming was done by a variable-powered 8x Leopuld scope, also tapped and mounted by an armorer.

As he (quite sadly, I might add) was forced to part with it and at least wanted to pass it on to someone who deserved to own it in the first place, Friend #1 sold it to Friend #2 for the jaw-droppingly ridiculous amount of $600. Deal of the fucking century.

I lament never getting it to a really serious range. At 150-200 yards, I could shoot offhand groups you could cover with a quarter.

if you're still in the area, feel free to come try it out...I am always down to take someone shooting. I get to show off the toys..
 
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