Wing Chun in MMA - the case of Tony Ferguson

[CFGroup]

Ferguson looked smooth, fluid and tuning up to land with power at the end of those long looping footwork shoulder positioning movements. Remind me, didn't he have serious knee surgery like 6 months ago?
Made my TKD boy look flat footed or back peddling so Tony could wind up with that awesome movement.
I gotta sit down and analyze all his fights....Some day soon. Ferguson v Holloway at where they're at in 2018 would be fucking spectacular for an old full contact traditional arts, fluidity and movement at awkward angles fan.

Ahh the troll in this thread reminds me, the TKD/Judo guy, of the good old days when MMA fighters and fans trashed anything that was not BJJ/Wrassling/Boxing/MuayThai....Except now the troll with the double yellow card is the one saying a traditional art is trash.

MMA.....

 

[Blue_Lou]

I’m sure Wing Chun helps him at least a bit, he’s clearly a fan since he works with that wooden dummy a lot. It’s just hard to say exactly how much WC helps him, you can’t really tell based off a couple elbows. At the end of the day he’s an MMA fighter and elbows aren’t really exclusive to WC

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Well honestly same thing as shotokan.

That art is like at least 75% shit but people justify it all for the rare gems here and there where it seems to work.

Oh and btw MT (stadium, real MT) has a shit load of hand trapping and elbows, too, but doesn't have that 75% shit component.

Not all arts have the same worth and you'll always find a bit of digestible corn in a pile of shit.

 

[ironkhan57]

I don't think any of us are against WC, but WC is not good on it's own. I mean if you already have boxing and muay thai than you can mix in some wing Chun blocks and some wing Chun elbows. Some of the blocks work better in mma though. But like everybody said in here, people have been using those downward elbows for ages, they teach that in muay thai classes too.

No style is useless and as @shincheckin said in one thread there are some techniques and tactics that can help with combat sports. WC isn't totally useless and the reason I say that is because I had a friend (I haven't talked to him in a mad long time) he trained wing chun since he was 7, he's in his 30's now, and he taught me some of it briefly. I'm not sure if he fought I got busy with work and when I came back to that gym after getting my 60-80 hrs a week schedule changed to 40 instead, I came back to that gym and he wasn't there. Anyways he was trying to adapt his WC to the muay thai in there, again don't know if he fought but that's the reason I don't downplay wing chun I've never even been to a wing Chun gym either.

 

[franklinstower]

Made a recent thread about this here, so I'm not reposting all the gifs.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/n...oxing-wing-chun-massacre-standup-gif.3844751/

fight clip is here:


Ferguson is using alot of Wing Chun in close here. He does alot of wooden dummy training and you can see it in his elbows and close range strikes. May be some technical points for wing chun purists but he makes it work in combat sports which so far hardly anyone else has so they can stfu and he trains it alot apparently so his WC will get better. Also says he doesnt spar anymore which is interesting.

Example here close range punch then downward diagonal elbow which he is doing alot on the dummy (like you see in Biu Jee form) which slices him open.

View attachment 452573

Master Wong Shun Leung doing downward elbow in biu jee form
View attachment 452577

He also mixes it up with good boxing but the bulk of damage he does is with the elbows. Does not really use thai clinch but uses the lowkick on occasion. His elbows and entry are very wing chun.
He also does alot of hand trapping and uses pak sau/ hand parry alot to deflect punches and counter, and tends to come in square alot using the pak sau and jut sau. Relentless close in pressure without clinching (the old saying 'Wing Chun is only good for the telephone box')

For the record, Ferguson is one of the top fighters in the world now. I should say also he is this level because he is super talented and aggressive and he is well rounded:

- college Wrestler so great takedown defence.
- BJJ blackbelt. His elbows off his back are also devestating which can also utilize wing chun strikes and sensitivity to an extent.
- His standup is mainly a hybrid of boxing and Wing Chun
- Great cardio so sustains the pace and always in your face

This is one of the few occasions we have seen legit Wing Chun techniques being applied in mma at the highest level as part of a well rounded fighter. Good to see it and we know the sport continues to evolve so what WC brings for infighting in the mma arena will come in more I am sure.

Great post! Maybe post of the year IMO because it is about marital arts and the evolution of them.

I can't stress enough how much threads like this are valuable- they are the main reason I am here. This ought to be part of how UFC and MMA in general promotes fighters and the sport.

This also shows how Tony is an ahead of his time thinker and an independent thinker. Props to the TS.

 

[ironkhan57]

I’m sure Wing Chun helps him at least a bit, he’s clearly a fan since he works with that wooden dummy a lot. It’s just hard to say exactly how much WC helps him, you can’t really tell based off a couple elbows. At the end of the day he’s an MMA fighter and elbows aren’t really exclusive to WC

If Tony used those traditional blocks than it would be wing Chun, but it is dirty boxing come to think of it because it's what Mike Tyson did back in the day. And Eddie Alvarez uses the same thing. It's nothing new to mma. And none of those guys trained wing chun.

 

[William Huggins]

I really haven't seen any fighters in MMA apart from the early days that is pure anything.

There are by definition no pure fighters of any style, at a high level. They are all MMA fighters..
.......

There are no complete fighting systems apart from MMA, even fighters from Sambo have a modified version with additional supplementation from other forms to fight in MMA. That makes it not pure Sambo!

This constant argument about technical ability or how X fighter got his ability to throw a hook and where it came from has pretty much been done to death.

If you train in the average MMA gym, you basically get a watered down version of, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling and BJJ (no gi). It's all been adjusted for MMA and half of the instructors would not have a knowledge of the pure form of what they are teaching.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I don't know, looks like Muay Thai to me. Many of Muangthai's elbows are setup off of hand traps.

Yeah. I'd be inclined to say that it's Muay Thai. It's just everything Ferguson does standing up is kind of spazzy.

Worth mentioning though that even though Joe mentions that Ferguson trains with a wooden dummy, that doesn't necessarily mean he knows what he's doing. That being, I'm fairly sure that if Ferguson did WC sparring with a couple guys in a class (not even masters) - I think he'd get slapped around.



I personally don't see much use in Wing Chun, but I'm doubtful that Ferguson 'knows' Wing Chun. I'm not really convinced that Ferguson 'knows' any martial art other than tenth planet. I think he's more a very gritty pressure fighter than he is a stand up martial artist.

 

[William Huggins]

Yeah. I'd be inclined to say that it's Muay Thai. It's just everything Ferguson does standing up is kind of spazzy.

Worth mentioning though that even though Joe mentions that Ferguson trains with a wooden dummy, that doesn't necessarily mean he knows what he's doing. That being, I'm fairly sure that if Ferguson did WC sparring with a couple guys in a class (not even masters) - I think he'd get slapped around.



I personally don't see much use in Wing Chun, but I'm doubtful that Ferguson 'knows' Wing Chun. I'm not really convinced that Ferguson 'knows' any martial art other than tenth planet. I think he's more a very gritty pressure fighter than he is a stand up martial artist.

Tony, loves a good fight with inanimate objects..........he doesn't always win..... I think he has 2 loses.... 1 against a feisty cable and another against a particularly tuff pole!!

 

[DatCutman]

He trains WC/VT? Who is his Sifu? What is his lineage?

 

[William Huggins]

He trains WC/VT? Who is his Sifu? What is his lineage?

Sifu Grand Master Poo Long Sho, long lineage............all the way back to Gimp Man...... Apparently before the Boxer Rebellion.......

 

[TheMaster]

Tony, loves a good fight with inanimate objects..........he doesn't always win..... I think he has 2 loses.... 1 against a feisty cable and another against a particularly tuff pole!!

If you dont train martial arts and dont have any clue what your talking about then its really best to just keep quiet.
He does do some conditioning against objects for kicking etc.
However anyone who knows wooden dummy training is aware one of the most useful parts about it is it is 'live' in a sense that it moves and gives feedback in reaction to you. Thus it allows for very high level reflex training and sensitivity as well as practicing entries and close range techniques, some of which he displayed in the fight. In addition obviously it is solid hardwood so it is going to help with conditioning but that is an important but secondary gain.

I really haven't seen any fighters in MMA apart from the early days that is pure anything.

There are by definition no pure fighters of any style, at a high level. They are all MMA fighters..
.......

There are no complete fighting systems apart from MMA, even fighters from Sambo have a modified version with additional supplementation from other forms to fight in MMA. That makes it not pure Sambo!

This constant argument about technical ability or how X fighter got his ability to throw a hook and where it came from has pretty much been done to death.

If you train in the average MMA gym, you basically get a watered down version of, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling and BJJ (no gi). It's all been adjusted for MMA and half of the instructors would not have a knowledge of the pure form of what they are teaching.

You actually made some good points here.
The modified and adapted versions of the arts are what are applied in mma.
The only issue is that instead of recognizing that we are at a point of understanding core principles and using techniques combined with training methodology, a large proportion think mma is basically now just wrestling, bjj, boxing and muay thai.
Even here, what type of wrestling, boxing etc?

These might be most common but there are other approaches also that can be used instead of or in addition to as long as the fundamentals are there. Your submission game for example may be primarily from sambo, catch or bjj but you need to be aware of different apporoaches.
Really it is about different positions and skills- standup at range, standup in close, hand trapping, clinching, throwing, takedown defence, ground and pound, submissions, economy of motion, sensitivity etc etc.
Fergusons WC is not super high level but neither is his boxing by pro standards. It will improve but what counts is he has made it work for him in the mma arena, just as he has made whatever MT and other training he knows work also.
His infighting ability and relentless close in pressure is what WC is all about so it is obvious why he trains it and the benefits for him, and he has the vision which is why he continues to evolve.

 

[ironkhan57]

If you dont train martial arts and dont have any clue what your talking about then its really best to just keep quiet.
He does do some conditioning against objects for kicking etc.
However anyone who knows wooden dummy training is aware one of the most useful parts about it is it is 'live' in a sense that it moves and gives feedback in reaction to you. Thus it allows for very high level reflex training and sensitivity as well as practicing entries and close range techniques, some of which he displayed in the fight. In addition obviously it is solid hardwood so it is going to help with conditioning but that is an important but secondary gain.



You actually made some good points here.
The modified and adapted versions of the arts are what are applied in mma.
The only issue is that instead of recognizing that we are at a point of understanding core principles and using techniques combined with training methodology, a large proportion think mma is basically now just wrestling, bjj, boxing and muay thai.
Even here, what type of wrestling, boxing etc?

These might be most common but there are other approaches also that can be used instead of or in addition to as long as the fundamentals are there. Your submission game for example may be primarily from sambo, catch or bjj but you need to be aware of different apporoaches.
Really it is about different positions and skills- standup at range, standup in close, hand trapping, clinching, throwing, takedown defence, ground and pound, submissions, economy of motion, sensitivity etc etc.
Fergusons WC is not super high level but neither is his boxing by pro standards. It will improve but what counts is he has made it work for him in the mma arena, just as he has made whatever MT and other training he knows work also.
His infighting ability and relentless close in pressure is what WC is all about so it is obvious why he trains it and the benefits for him, and he has the vision which is why he continues to evolve.

You are making some good points too, no offense but you seem a little close minded. I mean he could've been practicing some wing Chun as a supplement to his style. But he did not train traditional wing Chun. It might be wing Chun, it might be something he picked up, hell even in prison they have a style similar to wing Chun, called 52 blocks. Yes Tony Ferguson might've practiced on the wing chub dummy, but is wing Chun a big part of his style maybe it is a decent factor but some of the things he's doing could be just shit he learnt off of experience in the cage.

 

[William Huggins]

If you dont train martial arts and dont have any clue what your talking about then its really best to just keep quiet.
He does do some conditioning against objects for kicking etc.
However anyone who knows wooden dummy training is aware one of the most useful parts about it is it is 'live' in a sense that it moves and gives feedback in reaction to you. Thus it allows for very high level reflex training and sensitivity as well as practicing entries and close range techniques, some of which he displayed in the fight. In addition obviously it is solid hardwood so it is going to help with conditioning but that is an important but secondary gain.



You actually made some good points here.
The modified and adapted versions of the arts are what are applied in mma.
The only issue is that instead of recognizing that we are at a point of understanding core principles and using techniques combined with training methodology, a large proportion think mma is basically now just wrestling, bjj, boxing and muay thai.
Even here, what type of wrestling, boxing etc?

These might be most common but there are other approaches also that can be used instead of or in addition to as long as the fundamentals are there. Your submission game for example may be primarily from sambo, catch or bjj but you need to be aware of different apporoaches.
Really it is about different positions and skills- standup at range, standup in close, hand trapping, clinching, throwing, takedown defence, ground and pound, submissions, economy of motion, sensitivity etc etc.
Fergusons WC is not super high level but neither is his boxing by pro standards. It will improve but what counts is he has made it work for him in the mma arena, just as he has made whatever MT and other training he knows work also.
His infighting ability and relentless close in pressure is what WC is all about so it is obvious why he trains it and the benefits for him, and he has the vision which is why he continues to evolve.

I have plenty of training in Muay Thai and you?

The rest....

 

[eneck]

This type of attack has never been Wing Chun these short-range attacks are from Muaythai.

Wing Chun has no real efficiency.

 

[ElCucuyChampStuffOnly]

It takes a real MMA fan to see the power of his elbows never mind just seeing the thread and deciding to slate Wing Chun

 

[Azderiel]

Something about tony just weirds me out. The guy is odd as fuck but I love watching his fights and can't wait to see him vs Khabib (if it happens).

 

[shincheckin]

i have already mentioned that I find some things that could be valuable in WC so I dont have a horrible attitude towards it. That being said WC has had just as long as an opportunity as any other martial art on the planet to prove its effectiveness in combat sports. Unfortunately it hasnt really done that yet. Most of the stuff you can find online makes it look rather poor.

 

[Robocok]

If you dont train martial arts and dont have any clue what your talking about then its really best to just keep quiet.
He does do some conditioning against objects for kicking etc.
However anyone who knows wooden dummy training is aware one of the most useful parts about it is it is 'live' in a sense that it moves and gives feedback in reaction to you. Thus it allows for very high level reflex training and sensitivity as well as practicing entries and close range techniques, some of which he displayed in the fight. In addition obviously it is solid hardwood so it is going to help with conditioning but that is an important but secondary gain.



You actually made some good points here.
The modified and adapted versions of the arts are what are applied in mma.
The only issue is that instead of recognizing that we are at a point of understanding core principles and using techniques combined with training methodology, a large proportion think mma is basically now just wrestling, bjj, boxing and muay thai.
Even here, what type of wrestling, boxing etc?

These might be most common but there are other approaches also that can be used instead of or in addition to as long as the fundamentals are there. Your submission game for example may be primarily from sambo, catch or bjj but you need to be aware of different apporoaches.
Really it is about different positions and skills- standup at range, standup in close, hand trapping, clinching, throwing, takedown defence, ground and pound, submissions, economy of motion, sensitivity etc etc.
Fergusons WC is not super high level but neither is his boxing by pro standards. It will improve but what counts is he has made it work for him in the mma arena, just as he has made whatever MT and other training he knows work also.
His infighting ability and relentless close in pressure is what WC is all about so it is obvious why he trains it and the benefits for him, and he has the vision which is why he continues to evolve.

Do you have any footage of yourself training?

 

[Enganacious]

Big problem is basically in most western martial arts, elbows are not allowed. Boxing (obviously), Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc.. Even western Muay Thai is pretty lacking in blending punches and elbows. There's very very few people in MMA who legitimately mix punches and elbows together fluidly, the only names that come to mind are like Jon Jones and Israel Adasenya. There's a couple more people who are good at both, who can throw a haymaker elbow and put someone out like Matt Brown did to Diego Sanchez.