your thoughts on 10th planet

[tekkenfan]

back in the day people use to dis on eddie due to him not having any students o fighters to prove his stuff worked at a decent level back in 2008 as a early blue i thought it looked cool and i studied it for a few months but i could never pull off any subs against good guys with rubber so i abandoned it and felt it wasnt good against guys with sound fundamentals

fast forward to today it seems alot more people are getting into it and eddies very much respected he has a few students that are top level guys

which tbh surprised me since there are so many amazing gyms in the us today that eddies gym is that good he has a big school but still do you think its due to his innovative techniques or just teaching ability

 

[KikoJones]

Punctuation is your friend.

 

[Forceof1]

I think I'm excited about training there in a week.

Overall, it didn't have the MMA implications I think he thought it would (not yet anyway) but I think it helped break the dogmatic hold that gracie jiu jitsu had on sub grappling and open up the game a bit. I think the leg lock revolution (and its acceptance) owes a small nod to eddie.

 

[Colleric]

I think that main focus of 10th planet failed. And that's impact on MMA. But overall it's very good BJJ style!

 

[mataleaos]

10th Planet is cool. I think they get a lot less shit than they used to get. I think the EBI thing has been great for them, and the transition away from focusing on MMA to sub-only. I think there are a few substantial reasons why they are less successful than their Renzo Gracie rivals. But looking outside of competition I think 10th Planet seems like a pretty fun organization with a pretty good community. I don't know how many people worldwide in their affiliation share the flat earth and conspiracy views. Some of that stuff I'm not a huge fan of. But every 10p guy/gal I've trained with has been really cool. Eddie Bravo has put in a lot of effort to make it a successful organization and he's earned all of the success he has.

 

[mataleaos]

I think that main focus of 10th planet failed. And that's impact on MMA. But overall it's very good BJJ style!

FWIW Tony Ferguson is the lightweight champ. But I understand your point. I'm not sure their MMA focus could have ever succeeded since it started around the time people started to realize in MMA that fighting from the bottom in 5 minute rounds in the UFC was less ideal than trying to stand back up.

A lot of Ferguson's jiu-jitsu isn't 10p specific but he has done some cool 10p specific stuff in the UFC as well. Ben Saunders and George Sotiropolos too.

 

[Uchi Mata]

FWIW Tony Ferguson is the lightweight champ. But I understand your point. I'm not sure their MMA focus could have ever succeeded since it started around the time people started to realize in MMA that fighting from the bottom in 5 minute rounds in the UFC was less ideal than trying to stand back up.

A lot of Ferguson's jiu-jitsu isn't 10p specific but he has done some cool 10p specific stuff in the UFC as well. Ben Saunders and George Sotiropolos too.

Honestly, Ferguson's BJJ exemplifies the best possible version of 10th Planet. Basically zero fucks given about position, constantly attacking subs in scrambles, throwing stuff from weird angles and positions keeping his opponent off balance, all the things that make good 10th Planet guys a pain in the ass to deal with he does really well.

 

[efficientjudo]

I think part of the reason for their greater success / popularity is that in No-gi BJJ has really evolved into its own competitive sport scene. Whereas before you had ADCC as really the only big name event, and even that was full of Gi mainly grapplers.

 

[TheGZA]

Another awesome thread from Tekkenman.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

you could go back and read a lot of sherdog threads on this topic, but what fascinates me is eddie bravo himself more than his style or whatever. there are very few true 'personalities' in this sport, meaning guys who are highly influential because of their persona more than their sporting achievements. it may seem obvious to say it, but without eddie bravo's knack for self-promotion there would be no 10th planet. he has this constant stream of stoner-logic ideas that maybe never quite hit the mark, but always strike a nerve in the community ("you know how the goal of jiu-jitsu is to submit your opponent? well what if our guys ONLY went for submissions."). if he were to suddenly fall off the edge of the earth, i think the whole association would fall apart in short order, because nobody else has such a strong will to continuously move the goalposts like he does.

 

[tekkenfan]

Honestly, Ferguson's BJJ exemplifies the best possible version of 10th Planet. Basically zero fucks given about position, constantly attacking subs in scrambles, throwing stuff from weird angles and positions keeping his opponent off balance, all the things that make good 10th Planet guys a pain in the ass to deal with he does really well.

yeah i dont see eddie being a good guard passer either eddie usually is all about bottom so not sure how his guys develop solid passing at elite levels maybe they find other sources for there passing

 

[Uchi Mata]

yeah i dont see eddie being a good guard passer either eddie usually is all about bottom so not sure how his guys develop solid passing at elite levels maybe they find other sources for there passing

I think they just don't pass well. None of his top guys ever pass anyone really good's guards. Their system seems much more intent on grabbing subs when on top (Darces, leg locks, etc.) than just passing to dominant position.

 

[tekkenfan]

I think they just don't pass well. None of his top guys ever pass anyone really good's guards. Their system seems much more intent on grabbing subs when on top (Darces, leg locks, etc.) than just passing to dominant position.

they are in luck nowadays due to most guys not even trying to pass anymore just falling back for the legs

 

[maximus__]

I find it quite funny that alot of their other stuff has been added or is seen much more these days, but the rubber guard never really took off.

Obviously they didn't invent all the positions and subs, just gave them funky names, but I think the tenth planet system showed some different options for no gi.
I think you could credit there guys with some of that frantic, scrambly, submission before position style.

The rubber guard though just isn't a major position for MMA or No Gi BJJ.
You have a few guys that utilise it quickly to transition or the occasional mma fight, but I just don't think it really took off.

I love the lock down and it has become a major part of my game to create space to transiton on the ground though.

 

[mataleaos]

I think they just don't pass well. None of his top guys ever pass anyone really good's guards. Their system seems much more intent on grabbing subs when on top (Darces, leg locks, etc.) than just passing to dominant position.

Yes!

This became very evident to me when watching Justin Rader vs Denny Prokopos, as well as that year they 'invaded' NoGi Worlds.

The weakest aspect of their system I think is the lack of guard passing and guard retention. I used to think it was because they never trained gi, and in gi the guard vs the guard pass is the main battle front. However we've seen another no-gi team produce good guard passing without gi training. The gi may still contribute, but my theory is that they just don't seem to focus much on that part of the game.

Craig Jones, Lachlan Giles, and Kit Dale do "first to points" drills without the gi. I know Gordon Ryan and the DDS guys do drills and positional sparring focused on passing and retaining guard. I know Eddie Cummings does at his comp classes right now.

I have never heard of 10th Planet stopping when someone passes or sweeps and resetting. So I think they mostly just don't practice that skill very much.

Finally, I think it would benefit them. Even in the realm where you're talking about hunting subs from on top (which is a big part of my game) I've found that sub-hunting from the top gets easier and easier the more my passing and top pressure overall improves. The DDS/Renzo guys are an example of this and IMHO they are sort of a "better" 10th Planet.

You have any thoughts on that hypothesis? Or do you think it's other reasons why their passing is lacking? Geo is the best of them at the traditional guard retention and guard passing game.

 

[mataleaos]

I find it quite funny that alot of their other stuff has been added or is seen much more these days, but the rubber guard never really took off.

Obviously they didn't invent all the positions and subs, just gave them funky names, but I think the tenth planet system showed some different options for no gi.
I think you could credit there guys with some of that frantic, scrambly, submission before position style.

The rubber guard though just isn't a major position for MMA or No Gi BJJ.
You have a few guys that utilise it quickly to transition or the occasional mma fight, but I just don't think it really took off.

I love the lock down and it has become a major part of my game to create space to transiton on the ground though.

Yeah.

See to me the rubber guard was always the least interesting of their big 3 (rubber guard, lockdown, and the truck).

As far as submission before position style in the grappling world? I guess maybe some of their guys get some credit, but I can't think of many that had success besides Nate Orchard and the Martinez Bros. When I think of the sub-only style before that was a common rule set I think of the 3 main Paragon boys (Bill Cooper, Jeff Glover, and Tyrone Glover) from the mid 00's through the early 10's.

yeah i dont see eddie being a good guard passer either eddie usually is all about bottom so not sure how his guys develop solid passing at elite levels maybe they find other sources for there passing

Eddie used to say that he would re-pull half guard if he was on top without being past the guard. You can even see it in the rematch with Royler. He electric chair sweeps Royler and doesn't land pas the guard, so he rolls back to bottom, and does it again while clearing the legs during the pass. Eddie has always been very adamant about hating passing guard.

Culture moves from the top down. I think they just don't care about passing the guard. And they're all about the sub-only style now so they really don't even need to. They can keep falling on leg locks, arm locks, and strangles from the top without having to pass the guard and if they end can;t pass with those or even of they get swept it's no points so it's all good. But would argue that better passing would help them finish those subs much better.

 

[tekkenfan]

th

Yeah.

See to me the rubber guard was always the least interesting of their big 3 (rubber guard, lockdown, and the truck).

As far as submission before position style in the grappling world? I guess maybe some of their guys get some credit, but I can't think of many that had success besides Nate Orchard and the Martinez Bros. When I think of the sub-only style before that was a common rule set I think of the 3 main Paragon boys (Bill Cooper, Jeff Glover, and Tyrone Glover) from the mid 00's through the early 10's.



Eddie used to say that he would re-pull half guard if he was on top without being past the guard. You can even see it in the rematch with Royler. He electric chair sweeps Royler and doesn't land pas the guard, so he rolls back to bottom, and does it again while clearing the legs during the pass. Eddie has always been very adamant about hating passing guard.

Culture moves from the top down. I think they just don't care about passing the guard. And they're all about the sub-only style now so they really don't even need to. They can keep falling on leg locks, arm locks, and strangles from the top without having to pass the guard and if they end can;t pass with those or even of they get swept it's no points so it's all good. But would argue that better passing would help them finish those subs much better.[/QUOTE

well thats fine in a sub only tournament but most tournaments today do have time limits usually 6-8 minutes for blacks

in the gym thats just fine but i think its a bad approach if they plan to put dents in adcc and no gi worlds

 

[nefti]

Solid school, hasn't produced any consistent contenders/placers for adcc. Mostly personality driven

 

[Uchi Mata]

Yes!

This became very evident to me when watching Justin Rader vs Denny Prokopos, as well as that year they 'invaded' NoGi Worlds.

The weakest aspect of their system I think is the lack of guard passing and guard retention. I used to think it was because they never trained gi, and in gi the guard vs the guard pass is the main battle front. However we've seen another no-gi team produce good guard passing without gi training. The gi may still contribute, but my theory is that they just don't seem to focus much on that part of the game.

Craig Jones, Lachlan Giles, and Kit Dale do "first to points" drills without the gi. I know Gordon Ryan and the DDS guys do drills and positional sparring focused on passing and retaining guard. I know Eddie Cummings does at his comp classes right now.

I have never heard of 10th Planet stopping when someone passes or sweeps and resetting. So I think they mostly just don't practice that skill very much.

Finally, I think it would benefit them. Even in the realm where you're talking about hunting subs from on top (which is a big part of my game) I've found that sub-hunting from the top gets easier and easier the more my passing and top pressure overall improves. The DDS/Renzo guys are an example of this and IMHO they are sort of a "better" 10th Planet.

You have any thoughts on that hypothesis? Or do you think it's other reasons why their passing is lacking? Geo is the best of them at the traditional guard retention and guard passing game.

I don't think their guard retention is all that bad, though like much of their system it seems to rely more on gimmicks (empty half stuff, for example) than what you'd normally find taught. Though frankly guard retention is a big hole in BJJ pedagogy in general, very few schools that I know of teach it in a systematic fashion.

As for why they're bad at passing (relatively speaking): my theory on 10th Planet is that its curriculum is basically an amalgamation of everything Eddie himself likes to do, which is why they put so much emphasis on positions like lockdown and rubber guard despite considerable evidence they're not the best versions of those position to play. Eddie is almost solely a bottom player by preference based on his matches, and I think that just bleeds into the curriculum and training emphasis. 10th Planet isn't a system so much as a game (I don't think it's comprehensive enough to be called a complete system), and it's Eddie's game.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I find it quite funny that alot of their other stuff has been added or is seen much more these days, but the rubber guard never really took off.

Obviously they didn't invent all the positions and subs, just gave them funky names, but I think the tenth planet system showed some different options for no gi.
I think you could credit there guys with some of that frantic, scrambly, submission before position style.

The rubber guard though just isn't a major position for MMA or No Gi BJJ.
You have a few guys that utilise it quickly to transition or the occasional mma fight, but I just don't think it really took off.

I love the lock down and it has become a major part of my game to create space to transiton on the ground though.

If I had to rank their innovations, I'd say the truck is very good and shows up in pretty much everybody's repertoire now, lockdown is okay and many people use it from time to time though it's been superseded by other half guards as a go-to among the elite, and rubber guard is kind of the also-ran that not many people try to use (and which Eddie's own top guys try and fail to use against elite competition). I have also heard Eddie has a pretty strong mount system for no-gi, though I've not seen enough of it to make a judgement one way or the other.