your thoughts on 10th planet

As I said, that was his old way of thinking. If you read his first book he mentions that there are a number of books and resouces available to learn fundamentals.

Recently, during an interview he said that he likes to teach his students fundamentals his way because they won’t develop habits.

Every instructor does it. They're highly unlikely to say "I'm mud at teaching the basics". Aso everyone has different methods and even different ideas of what fundamentals are. Given that the 10th Planet system is a bit of a outlier when it comes to jiu jitsu systems, they probably emphasise different fundamental movements.

Heck, I don't know. I've never stepped foot in a 10th planet gym. I've just read his first 3 books and given it about 3 minutes of thought
 
I subscribed to the 10th planet site for a few months to see what they're doing with leg locks. I saw some of their other techniques, and I honestly just don't think the teaching is that great.

Eddie talks too much about "squeezing" and "battles" which I think creates a mindset of just using more strength or working harder instead of using proper positioning. I think that's partially because he plays so much lockdown and quarter guard where you have to fight and struggle for every inch because you're working out of what I believe to be inferior positioning.

He also doesn't show a lot of good details in my opinion. For example I saw him teaching a triangle on his site and his answer to people posturing is that you have to have it fully locked as soon as you catch it instead of showing how to break your opponent down after you've isolated an arm and working to a perpendicular angle. This is sympamatic of his whole approach, he uses attributes (in this case flexibility) to make the technique work instead of learning to move your hips and slowly adjust your angle while controlling your opponent.

Another obviously example is how he talks about developing a squeeze on your chokes. All good chokes to my understanding are about blocking both carotid arteries and having a backstop to prevent escape. Teaching people to adjust grips to better occlude the arteries would be a better answer than just saying "squeeze harder" which is again using an attribute (strength) to compensate for technique.

He's also a technique collector which isn't the best mindset for JJ. I think it's better to master 10 moves than know 100 at a so so level. If you just keep acquiring moves you stop worrying about positioning and start looking for "tricks" to get out of bad positions. This doesn't really work at the highest levels.

It's not to say his teaching is all bad. I like that he really believes in drilling, and students should learn that attributes matter as well as technique. It's also great that he's so open minded and willing to emulate the best guys in the world. I also think some of the recent rubber guard stuff could be effective at the black belt level.

This criticism doesn't necessarily apply to all 10th planet schools, just what I've seen from their site subscription site and Eddie himself.

Ya I remember someone asking him about rolling with Marcelo and he was saying how it motivated him to start lifting weights, because Marcelo’s hips were so strong.. don’t think hip strength is what made the difference there
 
I subscribed to the 10th planet site for a few months to see what they're doing with leg locks. I saw some of their other techniques, and I honestly just don't think the teaching is that great.

Eddie talks too much about "squeezing" and "battles" which I think creates a mindset of just using more strength or working harder instead of using proper positioning. I think that's partially because he plays so much lockdown and quarter guard where you have to fight and struggle for every inch because you're working out of what I believe to be inferior positioning.

He also doesn't show a lot of good details in my opinion. For example I saw him teaching a triangle on his site and his answer to people posturing is that you have to have it fully locked as soon as you catch it instead of showing how to break your opponent down after you've isolated an arm and working to a perpendicular angle. This is sympamatic of his whole approach, he uses attributes (in this case flexibility) to make the technique work instead of learning to move your hips and slowly adjust your angle while controlling your opponent.

Another obviously example is how he talks about developing a squeeze on your chokes. All good chokes to my understanding are about blocking both carotid arteries and having a backstop to prevent escape. Teaching people to adjust grips to better occlude the arteries would be a better answer than just saying "squeeze harder" which is again using an attribute (strength) to compensate for technique.

He's also a technique collector which isn't the best mindset for JJ. I think it's better to master 10 moves than know 100 at a so so level. If you just keep acquiring moves you stop worrying about positioning and start looking for "tricks" to get out of bad positions. This doesn't really work at the highest levels.

It's not to say his teaching is all bad. I like that he really believes in drilling, and students should learn that attributes matter as well as technique. It's also great that he's so open minded and willing to emulate the best guys in the world. I also think some of the recent rubber guard stuff could be effective at the black belt level.

This criticism doesn't necessarily apply to all 10th planet schools, just what I've seen from their site subscription site and Eddie himself.
I think Eddie's back is fucked up from so much of that clinching and squeezing too. And I know he'd had some groin and knee issues.

I think the "squeeze" thing is overrated. Especially for chokes/strangles. I think positioning is more important than just trying to crush with your arms or legs.

My experience with the website was similar.
 
'Diving' is probably the wrong word. It's not like the 10th Planet guys I've trained with were unskilled or just went for stupid stuff all the time. But the ones who were pure 10P, they did have a strong tendency to start attacking subs rather than consolidating position and it made their games a lot looser than they really needed to be. So for example, they'd get halfway through a knee slice and instead of finishing the pass and settling in side control before trying to isolate an arm or whatever they'd shoot a Darce as they finished the pass going straight to the sub. Now there's nothing wrong with Darcing off a knee slice, but if that's what you always do you're going to give the bottom guy many more chances to scramble out, reguard, or get back to his feet than you otherwise would. 'Position before submission' is cliched and definitely not as universally true as old school guys would have you believe, but there's a grain of truth there: if you never establish strong position before you start working for a sub you're going to have a really hard time keeping control of the flow of a match and reducing the other guy's chances. It would be like playing chess without paying attention to the other guy's moves. You might sometimes win with some big attack, but at the same time you're also a lot more vulnerable if someone can kill your activity and you don't have a solid positional base to fall back on.

This was me for years. Just getting too excited to jump on the head before pressuring the bottom person enough. You can hear some of this in how Eddie coaches. If you listen to him coaching, he will scream for his guys to dive on chokes and "squeeeeeeeze!!!!" before they have put enough pressure on the pass or have consolidated position. He even does it with RNCs and stuff. If someone has the back, before they grip fight sometimes he'll just scream out for them to squeeze. I think he spots people getting near a sub and basically yells for them to just go for it instead of methodically progressing to it.

By the way regarding the larger meta I think it's rarely talked about how much reverse Delariva diminished the effectiveness of spamming knee slide darces. That was super easy to spam with success but after RDLR one had to actually be very good at that to get it to work at a high level.
 
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I think Eddie's back is fucked up from so much of that clinching and squeezing too. And I know he'd had some groin and knee issues.

I think the "squeeze" thing is overrated. Especially for chokes/strangles. I think positioning is more important than just trying to crush with your arms or legs.

My experience with the website was similar.

'Squeezing' is not the most important part of finishing chokes. Arguably if you have to squeeze overly much it means you didn't have good positioning in the first place. If I get my position right I can finish a RNC or Darce on anyone with very little effort (it's just hard to get good positioning on quality opponents).
 
'Squeezing' is not the most important part of finishing chokes. Arguably if you have to squeeze overly much it means you didn't have good positioning in the first place. If I get my position right I can finish a RNC or Darce on anyone with very little effort (it's just hard to get good positioning on quality opponents).
Perfectly stated. I enjoy Eddie Bravo's takes on a lot of jiu-jitsu and MMA stuff but I think he has some things wrong too and I'm not a big fan of his cornering style.
 
I know this thread has sort of died down and went on forever but I would definitely like to at least say that 10th Planet has come a long ways in the past few years and I do think they are much better as a team than they were 5 or 6 years ago. Like they improved more in the past 6 years than they did in the previous 6 years before that. Just my opinion.
 
I know this thread has sort of died down and went on forever but I would definitely like to at least say that 10th Planet has come a long ways in the past few years and I do think they are much better as a team than they were 5 or 6 years ago. Like they improved more in the past 6 years than they did in the previous 6 years before that. Just my opinion.
I agree. I think EBIs popularity has forced those guys to up their game. They can no longer just be the eccentric team anymore. They need to strive to win and represent their school.

I mean, I never considered their techniques but ever since the EBI I have been more and more interest in what those guys are doing.
 
I agree. I think EBIs popularity has forced those guys to up their game. They can no longer just be the eccentric team anymore. They need to strive to win and represent their school.

I mean, I never considered their techniques but ever since the EBI I have been more and more interest in what those guys are doing.
The interesting is that Geo is their best guy and besides the truck doesn't play a lot of stuff that I would consider typical 10p stuff. So Geo doesn't even really play much leg locks. I never thought about that before, but he's basically looks for RDLR to sweep and on top he tries knee slicing or forcing half guard for his darce/Japanese necktie/guillotine series or for olling kimuras off the top to get to the back. Geo claims the Japanese necktie is a 10th Planet thing but I always thought it was a Shinya Aoki thing.

Geo's brother Boogey seems like he plays more of a traditional 10th Planet game to me. Nate Orchard too, although he claims to be mostly into arm drags, Russian ties, double unders passes, and back attacks right now. So he's sort of playing more of a traditional BJJ game. That Marvin Castelle (sp?) guy is straight leg locks basically.

So a lot of their top guys aren't playing that old school rubber guard and lockdown style that I typically associate with 10th Planet to begin with.
 
A lot of 10p guys are now regular bjj guys lol, 10p wanted to be to bjj what combat sambo is to sambo but it failed, you can't omit all the bjj base just to hunt fancy moves, there's a big gap there, the "combat bjj" available is a joke. Sorry guy from the video you just had some bad luck.

 
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I had a very positive experience at a 10p gym awhile back. It was like a really solid No Gi class at any other gym.
 
Every instructor does it. They're highly unlikely to say "I'm mud at teaching the basics". Aso everyone has different methods and even different ideas of what fundamentals are. Given that the 10th Planet system is a bit of a outlier when it comes to jiu jitsu systems, they probably emphasise different fundamental movements.

Heck, I don't know. I've never stepped foot in a 10th planet gym. I've just read his first 3 books and given it about 3 minutes of thought
It actually is quite astonishing how many instructors are mud at teaching the basics.. or how to break them down. Or how to effectively build them up or put basic skills together to do “advanced” stuff
 
It actually is quite astonishing how many instructors are mud at teaching the basics.. or how to break them down. Or how to effectively build them up or put basic skills together to do “advanced” stuff

I don't think many coaches spend that much time trying to figure out what the really key ideas of any given move are. They show a move, give a couple of caveats ('don't do this when your partner is on his side and not flat on his back'), and then go straight to repetition. One of the things I like most about John Danaher as a coach/analyst is that he spends a ton of time trying to figure out for every move he teaches what are the 2-3 things you have to do to make it work, and that's what he concentrates on in his teaching. I'd take that a step further and say that you really need to couch moves as part of a general strategy in a position to really aid retention, something that (ugh) Lloyd Irvin always did really well with his beginner curriculum. Personally, I don't think about teaching beginners moves, I think about teaching them mini systems in various positions that are executed by being able to perform a very small number (2-3) of related moves. I find it's much more effective to give folks a notion of what they're trying to do and then teach them how, technically, to do it than it is to just show them a bunch of moves and let them try to figure out the goal themselves.
 
I don't think many coaches spend that much time trying to figure out what the really key ideas of any given move are. They show a move, give a couple of caveats ('don't do this when your partner is on his side and not flat on his back'), and then go straight to repetition. One of the things I like most about John Danaher as a coach/analyst is that he spends a ton of time trying to figure out for every move he teaches what are the 2-3 things you have to do to make it work, and that's what he concentrates on in his teaching. I'd take that a step further and say that you really need to couch moves as part of a general strategy in a position to really aid retention, something that (ugh) Lloyd Irvin always did really well with his beginner curriculum. Personally, I don't think about teaching beginners moves, I think about teaching them mini systems in various positions that are executed by being able to perform a very small number (2-3) of related moves. I find it's much more effective to give folks a notion of what they're trying to do and then teach them how, technically, to do it than it is to just show them a bunch of moves and let them try to figure out the goal themselves.


My coach tries a lot to go further than just showing the move. His techniques are always linked together, he always comes back to the positioning, the entries, he tries to explain what happens if you don't do something properly so we understand what to do while rolling.

But that means a lot of talking, and attention span is not the same for everyone. Some people need to do it to understand it, others, like me, just talking about it and seeing it is enough to understand what the coach is talking about.

Everytime the coach spends a lot of time explaining stuff, most people do the technique wrong, so it's all about balance.

Also, Danaher as an elite group of grapplers, he can go way further than a coach with random colored belts in a class.
 
I don't think many coaches spend that much time trying to figure out what the really key ideas of any given move are. They show a move, give a couple of caveats ('don't do this when your partner is on his side and not flat on his back'), and then go straight to repetition. One of the things I like most about John Danaher as a coach/analyst is that he spends a ton of time trying to figure out for every move he teaches what are the 2-3 things you have to do to make it work, and that's what he concentrates on in his teaching. I'd take that a step further and say that you really need to couch moves as part of a general strategy in a position to really aid retention, something that (ugh) Lloyd Irvin always did really well with his beginner curriculum. Personally, I don't think about teaching beginners moves, I think about teaching them mini systems in various positions that are executed by being able to perform a very small number (2-3) of related moves. I find it's much more effective to give folks a notion of what they're trying to do and then teach them how, technically, to do it than it is to just show them a bunch of moves and let them try to figure out the goal themselves.
I really agree with what you said.
I'm really New to bjj, but that means I can maybe give an inexperienced view on this.
Yesterday we were learning mounted escapes. We were shown 3 different moves, and told how to combo them together, and that if one doesn't work it May have created space for another one. Having "trap and roll" and elbow escapes explained not only as techniques, but as concepts made it much better. After drilling, I was immediately able to use it in sparring and I'm no longer completely lost when it comes to mount.
 
My coach tries a lot to go further than just showing the move. His techniques are always linked together, he always comes back to the positioning, the entries, he tries to explain what happens if you don't do something properly so we understand what to do while rolling.

But that means a lot of talking, and attention span is not the same for everyone. Some people need to do it to understand it, others, like me, just talking about it and seeing it is enough to understand what the coach is talking about.

Everytime the coach spends a lot of time explaining stuff, most people do the technique wrong, so it's all about balance.

Also, Danaher as an elite group of grapplers, he can go way further than a coach with random colored belts in a class.

Danaher doesn't seem to spend a lot of time explaining stuff. I think that's the key to using this method: you have to distill what you're talking about down to a very small number of key points and just teach those. You look at someone like Ryan Hall: obviously he's spent a ton of time breaking down technique and figuring out the best way to do things, but he hasn't spent any time (as far as I can tell) trying to figure out how to convey those learnings in a parsimonious manner. He just talks, and talks, and talks, and it's really easy to lose the thread of what's actually important.

Let's say you're teaching side control to noobs. You think it's important to block the hip and get a knee high under the armpit. You can either just say 'the two things you have to do here are block the hip and get a knee under the armpit, here's how you do that' or you can say *why* it's important to do those things which takes a lot longer. My feeling is that the 'why' isn't actually that important for white belts, and is largely a waste of time, and also what takes the biggest chunks out of class time. What you want to do is convey the cues as directly and simply as possible and then have your folks spend a lot of time practicing hitting those cues as soon as they get into the position. It actually requires a lot of self discipline to teach this way, because it's easy to go too deep and spend too much time talking when most of that knowledge would go way over the heads of your audience.

Concepts and strategy are two different things, right? My view is that people spend way too much time on concepts, which are largely useless below at least purple belt (even though everyone likes to talk about them), and not nearly enough time just telling people what to do in specific positions. Strategy sits between raw technique and conceptual theory but it seems to be largely ignored at lower levels by most coaches. Maybe that's just me.
 
Danaher doesn't seem to spend a lot of time explaining stuff. I think that's the key to using this method: you have to distill what you're talking about down to a very small number of key points and just teach those. You look at someone like Ryan Hall: obviously he's spent a ton of time breaking down technique and figuring out the best way to do things, but he hasn't spent any time (as far as I can tell) trying to figure out how to convey those learnings in a parsimonious manner. He just talks, and talks, and talks, and it's really easy to lose the thread of what's actually important.

Let's say you're teaching side control to noobs. You think it's important to block the hip and get a knee high under the armpit. You can either just say 'the two things you have to do here are block the hip and get a knee under the armpit, here's how you do that' or you can say *why* it's important to do those things which takes a lot longer. My feeling is that the 'why' isn't actually that important for white belts, and is largely a waste of time, and also what takes the biggest chunks out of class time. What you want to do is convey the cues as directly and simply as possible and then have your folks spend a lot of time practicing hitting those cues as soon as they get into the position. It actually requires a lot of self discipline to teach this way, because it's easy to go too deep and spend too much time talking when most of that knowledge would go way over the heads of your audience.

Concepts and strategy are two different things, right? My view is that people spend way too much time on concepts, which are largely useless below at least purple belt (even though everyone likes to talk about them), and not nearly enough time just telling people what to do in specific positions. Strategy sits between raw technique and conceptual theory but it seems to be largely ignored at lower levels by most coaches. Maybe that's just me.

Inferring from Danaher's facebook posts, seems like his style is to break down everything to its most basic sound component and build routines from there. You see a lot of pictures that look like closely supervised sparring, where I assume he's focusing his students on each transition point. It looks like more than just "do this move here," but rather a controlled assesment of the dangers and opportunities within each situation.

This jibes with the DDS leglocking philosophy vs. the 10th Planet one, where Danaher's students seem more controlled with their leglocking and never lose a dominant position, whereas 10P seems more chaotic and aggressive.
 
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