your thoughts on 10th planet

I don't think many coaches spend that much time trying to figure out what the really key ideas of any given move are. They show a move, give a couple of caveats ('don't do this when your partner is on his side and not flat on his back'), and then go straight to repetition. One of the things I like most about John Danaher as a coach/analyst is that he spends a ton of time trying to figure out for every move he teaches what are the 2-3 things you have to do to make it work, and that's what he concentrates on in his teaching. I'd take that a step further and say that you really need to couch moves as part of a general strategy in a position to really aid retention, something that (ugh) Lloyd Irvin always did really well with his beginner curriculum. Personally, I don't think about teaching beginners moves, I think about teaching them mini systems in various positions that are executed by being able to perform a very small number (2-3) of related moves. I find it's much more effective to give folks a notion of what they're trying to do and then teach them how, technically, to do it than it is to just show them a bunch of moves and let them try to figure out the goal themselves.
Danaher doesn't seem to spend a lot of time explaining stuff. I think that's the key to using this method: you have to distill what you're talking about down to a very small number of key points and just teach those. You look at someone like Ryan Hall: obviously he's spent a ton of time breaking down technique and figuring out the best way to do things, but he hasn't spent any time (as far as I can tell) trying to figure out how to convey those learnings in a parsimonious manner. He just talks, and talks, and talks, and it's really easy to lose the thread of what's actually important.

Let's say you're teaching side control to noobs. You think it's important to block the hip and get a knee high under the armpit. You can either just say 'the two things you have to do here are block the hip and get a knee under the armpit, here's how you do that' or you can say *why* it's important to do those things which takes a lot longer. My feeling is that the 'why' isn't actually that important for white belts, and is largely a waste of time, and also what takes the biggest chunks out of class time. What you want to do is convey the cues as directly and simply as possible and then have your folks spend a lot of time practicing hitting those cues as soon as they get into the position. It actually requires a lot of self discipline to teach this way, because it's easy to go too deep and spend too much time talking when most of that knowledge would go way over the heads of your audience.

Concepts and strategy are two different things, right? My view is that people spend way too much time on concepts, which are largely useless below at least purple belt (even though everyone likes to talk about them), and not nearly enough time just telling people what to do in specific positions. Strategy sits between raw technique and conceptual theory but it seems to be largely ignored at lower levels by most coaches. Maybe that's just me.
In my humble opinion, and this is based off coaching everything from first year freshman/sophomore inner city kids to nationally ranked High school kids with DI offers/commits is that a balance of “concepts”/techniques is needed, and the ratio changes based off the type of practice and the experience level. That being said, I tend to very much so focus on positions and positional cues before concepts when teaching

For example, teaching kids that for almost every shot, good position= Hips in/underneath you, head up, back straight and elbows tight. Gives you cues that let them both adjust when you call them out and let “them” self correct quickly (something very underrated). I’ve had kids learn how to knee slide on extended shots just because I told them to get their hips in. Or on top, be on your toes driving so hard shoes should be torqued, crossface pinkie is right above the elbow etc etc

You don’t have to explain the scientific reasons WHY this is important until later.

When I do teach concepts like the “clock theory” for pinning/turns. I tell them, run the half, bar etc to 130 or 1030. And usually don’t go into why until later after they’ve tried it a few times and/or making corrections after a competition. The focus IMO for beginners, is them getting as many “correct reps” as possible before anything else

Or another concept, “high man wins scramble” I honestly don’t show or teach “scrambling technique” at first, I put them in weird positions (back to back, side by side flat and in base, with or without far ankles etc etc.) and tell them “high man will win” and do live goes from there for 10-15 seconds

And in addition to not going into “concepts” too much at first. I’ve learned (the hard way lol) to not focus so much on every detail at first, but on positions like I said earlier. Too much detail creates too much thinking and hesitation at first

However, I don’t have a problem with guys like Ryan Hall, you need both types of teachers
 
^i focus on skills along with positions. Footwork, penetration steps, hips heist etc. the “building blocks”
 
In my humble opinion, and this is based off coaching everything from first year freshman/sophomore inner city kids to nationally ranked High school kids with DI offers/commits is that a balance of “concepts”/techniques is needed, and the ratio changes based off the type of practice and the experience level. That being said, I tend to very much so focus on positions and positional cues before concepts when teaching

For example, teaching kids that for almost every shot, good position= Hips in/underneath you, head up, back straight and elbows tight. Gives you cues that let them both adjust when you call them out and let “them” self correct quickly (something very underrated). I’ve had kids learn how to knee slide on extended shots just because I told them to get their hips in. Or on top, be on your toes driving so hard shoes should be torqued, crossface pinkie is right above the elbow etc etc

You don’t have to explain the scientific reasons WHY this is important until later.

When I do teach concepts like the “clock theory” for pinning/turns. I tell them, run the half, bar etc to 130 or 1030. And usually don’t go into why until later after they’ve tried it a few times and/or making corrections after a competition. The focus IMO for beginners, is them getting as many “correct reps” as possible before anything else

Or another concept, “high man wins scramble” I honestly don’t show or teach “scrambling technique” at first, I put them in weird positions (back to back, side by side flat and in base, with or without far ankles etc etc.) and tell them “high man will win” and do live goes from there for 10-15 seconds

And in addition to not going into “concepts” too much at first. I’ve learned (the hard way lol) to not focus so much on every detail at first, but on positions like I said earlier. Too much detail creates too much thinking and hesitation at first

However, I don’t have a problem with guys like Ryan Hall, you need both types of teachers

I agree with all of that, and sometimes the line between concepts and goals/strategies is blurry. Ryan Hall isn't a bad teacher by any means, but a lot of what he talks about in his DVDs (I imagine his beginner classes are run differently) would go over the heads of white belts who just need to be, as you say, cranking out correct reps. And I was specifically addressing teaching newbies, advanced people have a whole different set of needs.

Definitely agree on on the limited number of details. I try to keep it to two, three at most. More than that and it's too much for someone to concentrate on with an unfamiliar move. The trick is just making sure they're the right details and not anything extraneous.
 
I agree with all of that, and sometimes the line between concepts and goals/strategies is blurry. Ryan Hall isn't a bad teacher by any means, but a lot of what he talks about in his DVDs (I imagine his beginner classes are run differently) would go over the heads of white belts who just need to be, as you say, cranking out correct reps. And I was specifically addressing teaching newbies, advanced people have a whole different set of needs.

Definitely agree on on the limited number of details. I try to keep it to two, three at most. More than that and it's too much for someone to concentrate on with an unfamiliar move. The trick is just making sure they're the right details and not anything extraneous.
My observation is that biggest difference between my job and a Bjj gym owner is that I get almost immediate feedback whether or not what I’m doing is working or starting to work because every person I coach competes
 
I'm not a gym owner, but I work with kids with special needs and a big thing I've taken from that is the need to break everything down into clear processes, and then break down those processes into their own component processes (ex. tying your shoes has a series of steps, but you must first have mastered the process for weaving string, pinching two ends of string, etc.). So, for BJJ I also see it as mastering the moves behind the moves first-- the frames. the grips, the power, etc. For example, the basic closed guard armbar could be taught in a week or it could be taught in a month. I think any beginner could figure out the basic sequence in a week, but if you really want that student to master the move with 100% effectiveness then you must spend a day just on each component of the move. Ex. The learning goal for one day might just be to master how to trap the arm; you're not even going through the whole armbar, just trapping the arm and fine-tuning the particulars of how how to make that arm stay trapped. Next day the learning goal is trapping the shoulder while trapping the arm, and on and on such that when you finally get to finishing the armbar it just seems like a small addition, rather than forcing the student to figure out six things at once.
 
It actually is quite astonishing how many instructors are mud at teaching the basics.. or how to break them down. Or how to effectively build them up or put basic skills together to do “advanced” stuff

Some might but I find it's usually one (or a mix of):

  • "I'm above showing this stuff"
  • Apathy
  • Never having actually had to explain why you do what you do
 
Never having actually had to explain why you do what you do

Add to that "Being unaware of what they are actually doing." I've seen world champions spend several minutes talking about the details of a technique and then do something superficially similar but importantly different when executing at speed.
 
back in the day people use to dis on eddie due to him not having any students o fighters to prove his stuff worked at a decent level back in 2008 as a early blue i thought it looked cool and i studied it for a few months but i could never pull off any subs against good guys with rubber so i abandoned it and felt it wasnt good against guys with sound fundamentals

fast forward to today it seems alot more people are getting into it and eddies very much respected he has a few students that are top level guys

which tbh surprised me since there are so many amazing gyms in the us today that eddies gym is that good he has a big school but still do you think its due to his innovative techniques or just teaching ability
Eddie runs a top ranked bjj dojo with elite fighters. I've watched eddie compete and he's a real genius on the ground.

I just think the guy is nuts outside of mma. I mean he thinks the earth is flat...and not only that, he has no solid reasoning as to why and refuses to listen to anything anybody says. I still think he's a very smart guy though which boggles my mind as to why he has such an outward conspiracy against everything. Pretty sure his webpage has links to "nibiru" lol. But...it's all in the name. 10th planet jui jitsu
 
Add to that "Being unaware of what they are actually doing." I've seen world champions spend several minutes talking about the details of a technique and then do something superficially similar but importantly different when executing at speed.

That comes to the old adage that a "great competitor does not necessarily make a good coach". That's why when you attend seminars, sometimes the best you pay for is the photo op lol. I had a guy coach in a different sport. He ended up coaching the national team but going through the ranks together, he was terrible. Wasn't the lack of knowledge, but more he had to coach grassroots where the disparity in skill through the individuals of the team was huge and he just could not click with the kids that were just starting because they couldn't execute what he wanted and he couldn't explain to them how to execute. When he moved up and starting coaching the top tier teams though, he was awesome. They were at the skill level he could execute what he wanted and make the adjustments he asked for,

On point two, sometimes it's the case, when you do something slow, you might not be able to hold a position. On the flip side, there's a half guard pass that I show and I'll tell the students "Ok, I want you guys to drill it like this. I want you specifically do the drill this way with this detail that feels and look completely stupid". I had a visiting BB, (who in all fairness, knows more than me and had [still has] a far more decorated career that my one or two comps every year or so) in the class one day when I showed it and he kinda said the detail was unnecessary. Heck even students gloss over the movement. I always answer with "Yep, I know it looks and feels stupid. In live rolling, almost never have to execute it with the precise detail of that movement but that's the perfect way to execute that technique. In drilling it for perfection, I'm trying to build into your movement the muscle memory of the movement before so you create the angle that'll make the movement easier rather than out and out overpowering to complete the pass". If I show it at full speed, we'd never do the detail which I feel is important. Kinda "journey not the destination"
 
Eddie runs a top ranked bjj dojo with elite fighters. I've watched eddie compete and he's a real genius on the ground.

I just think the guy is nuts outside of mma. I mean he thinks the earth is flat...and not only that, he has no solid reasoning as to why and refuses to listen to anything anybody says. I still think he's a very smart guy though which boggles my mind as to why he has such an outward conspiracy against everything. Pretty sure his webpage has links to "nibiru" lol. But...it's all in the name. 10th planet jui jitsu

I don't know about genius but given that what we practice is a "art" the term is relative person to person.

He is certainly innovative though. Way back when (actually still today), I like his thinking behind mission control in that he is freeing up limbs to attack with. It's a concept I use and show (not necessarily just on mission control)
 
Add to that "Being unaware of what they are actually doing." I've seen world champions spend several minutes talking about the details of a technique and then do something superficially similar but importantly different when executing at speed.
I’ve beem guilty of this especially when trying to teach my front headlock. And it’s beem hard for me to articulate until I’ve seen others teach it
 
I’ve beem guilty of this especially when trying to teach my front headlock. And it’s beem hard for me to articulate until I’ve seen others teach it

This is why teaching is such a great learning tool, at least for the mildly self-aware. The first time you present something to an audience you're forced to reevaluate your own understanding in a serious way.
 
Add to that "Being unaware of what they are actually doing." I've seen world champions spend several minutes talking about the details of a technique and then do something superficially similar but importantly different when executing at speed.
This happens so much. I used to think people were holding back or giving false information but I think it's honestly more of an issue of just doing things they aren't necessarily realizing. Rafa Mendes said when he opened AOJ that he started realizing he was skipping over a lot of details or teaching things differently than how he did in competition just because people started asking him questions all the time.
 
I don't think their guard retention is all that bad, though like much of their system it seems to rely more on gimmicks (empty half stuff, for example) than what you'd normally find taught. Though frankly guard retention is a big hole in BJJ pedagogy in general, very few schools that I know of teach it in a systematic fashion.

As for why they're bad at passing (relatively speaking): my theory on 10th Planet is that its curriculum is basically an amalgamation of everything Eddie himself likes to do, which is why they put so much emphasis on positions like lockdown and rubber guard despite considerable evidence they're not the best versions of those position to play. Eddie is almost solely a bottom player by preference based on his matches, and I think that just bleeds into the curriculum and training emphasis. 10th Planet isn't a system so much as a game (I don't think it's comprehensive enough to be called a complete system), and it's Eddie's game.

wow excellent point, very well expressed points in this post
 
I have pretty limited formal teaching experience in a bjj context but sometimes when I'm showing a move I want to stop talking because I feel like I'm making up details that I don't actually use live.

This is why it's nice to be the instructors uke - I learn so much just from feeling technique that I cannot learn from a visual demonstration. More importantly, I learn in a sort of kinesthetic, subconscious way. When an instructor demonstrates a technique perfectly on me, I remember what it feels like and I try to recreate that feeling anytime I use it. Like catching your first wave and chasing that feeling every time you go after. When I rediscover moves on my own that I haven't been shown, even if I have a high level of success with it, I'm at a loss for how it should feel when I've never felt it before.

Ideally I guess that's what high level BJJ is - you streamline all the thoughts and little body movements into a feeling. "This feels off" or "I can feel his balance". It sounds like bullshit, because it probably is, but it seems analogous to Arnold's "mind-muscle connection" theory.

I think there is a large subconscious component to learning something like grappling. I think this is why you have those idiot classmates who pick up techniques quickly. For the former, maybe their thinking is optimized by being minimal. I think this is why there are those world champs that are poor instructors. Maybe their thought process is just so streamlined that they've forgotten all the details to get them there. In either case their body seems to recognize what their mind can only do in retrospect.

Words are sometimes a really poor way to communicate.
 
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