Zen Mind when training

[GoodHeadkick]

I originally came from an traditional martial arts background. And then later got into more MMA style.

I used to really be into the whole Zen mind thing when doing traditional martial arts. In particular I would notice this effectivesness when I would be doing Kendo. As it was all about keeping the mind "centred" rather than "focused". And having a sense of detachment from the outcome would give me optimal response to what I was going to do. When I would counterstrike it would feel like "it" did it rather than "me".

When I got into more MMA styles I found it harder to maintain the zen mind during sparring or grappling. Mainly because those styles are more physical. So my mind would be on how much my cardio is hurting. Or how my opponent gave me a good counterstrike and I would be worried about that. Or I would be "thinking" about what I want to do next rather than just being in the present in moving.

For years I realized I wanted to get that centered frame of mind back again and had trouble cultivating it.

Yesterday during kickboxing sparring was the first time I really felt that again. I was in a pretty good mood and had a carefree attitude. I didn't care about getting hit in the face. I didn't care about if I didn't perform up to my capacity. All I cared about was doing my best and being satisfied.

So going into sparring I pretty much just held my hands up high and got prepared to get hit. Holding a good foundation and relaxing myself like its no big deal. My opponents would throw some punches and I would just calmly block and absorb it and then counter strike. It was like being completely in the moment. I pretty much could have just stood there and got hit all day long like it was no big deal. That sense of detachment was crucial for performing optimally.

Anyone else have similar experience in their journey?

_____________________________________
Develop Explosive Power and Strength in Martial Arts in only 20-30 minutes per week at http://www.powerathlete.info

 

[Kanka]

ask somebody to knee you on the liver a couple of times and see if it works

 

[SummerStriker]

Glad that is working out for you. In Buddhism they say that you really haven't meditated until you have meditated while you are sick. Flat out, it is easier to have a detached mind when you are doing something clean like kendo compared to something rough like MMA. People who care about meditating while doing martial arts are going to gravitate to arts that facilitate it.

Functionally, you just turned up the difficulty on your practice, so good job.

If Zen is your thing though, I would talk to a monk. There are all kinds of false enlightenment states and it is easy being caught up in the euphoria of one that isn't true or sustainable.

I struggle with the same things, becoming overly tense or nervous before a sparring match that I think has to potential to injure me, and then doing mental exercises that over relax me, then becoming aggravated or angry when the bombs start dropping.

Sports psychology is a big deal, and hard to get right.

 

[MarxP]

I train in kyokushin karate, try to meditate everyday, and I'm big into Zen philosophies and the concept of training until you have no mind, or mushin. I try to enter a state of not thinking, just reacting and letting my techniques execute almost automatically. I've only been training for a little over a year so I haven't quite reached that point but I have noticed recently that in our lighter sparring sessions, i'm incredibly relaxed and my mind just picks out openings in the opponent without me actively seeking them out. I think the zen mind and a fighters mindset in general is a very underappreciated, under trained aspect of fighting.

 

[ChachiKiller]

Glad that is working out for you. In Buddhism they say that you really haven't meditated until you have meditated while you are sick. Flat out, it is easier to have a detached mind when you are doing something clean like kendo compared to something rough like MMA. People who care about meditating while doing martial arts are going to gravitate to arts that facilitate it.

Functionally, you just turned up the difficulty on your practice, so good job.

If Zen is your thing though, I would talk to a monk. There are all kinds of false enlightenment states and it is easy being caught up in the euphoria of one that isn't true or sustainable.

I struggle with the same things, becoming overly tense or nervous before a sparring match that I think has to potential to injure me, and then doing mental exercises that over relax me, then becoming aggravated or angry when the bombs start dropping.

Sports psychology is a big deal, and hard to get right.

Sports psych is a wide array of things. It is like saying martial arts to describe the one style. Also no need to talk to a monk. He simply found a flow state which is the perfect intersection of challenge meeting ability and he was relaxed mentally to not bother him.

You don't need a monk buddy. MJ was in this state with the Bulls. Many studies actually talk about him. Look up Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He boiled it down to science and not spirituality.

 

[SummerStriker]

Sports psych? It is like saying martial arts to describe the different areas. Talk to a monk? He simply found a flow state which is the perfect intersection of challenge meeting ability and he was relaxed mentally to not bother him.

You don't need a monk buddy. MJ was in this state with the Bulls. Many studies actually talk about him. Look up Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He boiled it down to science and not spirituality.

He is talking about Zen Buddhism.

 

[Babba]

if i get too relaxed i go into anterior pelvic tilt and don't return my hands quickly enough. getting too much 'zen' isn't good for me. of course i can go zen when i am sparring light and sparring people that aren't up to par.

but in the end when i spar someone on national++ level i need to stay very concious or fall into the traps.

u don't fall into bad habits when you do this?

 

[Fire of Youth]

In Performance Psychology, we call it a 'Flow' state. Its a pretty bloody good feeling.

 

[ChachiKiller]

He is talking about Zen Buddhism.

He referred to zen as his experience but one does not need to become a Buddhist. It is the same effect by the same regions of the brain. Religious experiences are can be arrived at through non religious means. These are non-religious events they are just a state of being that comes from a spiritual practice or a mindful practice of trying to create the right mental environment.

 

[SummerStriker]

He referred to zen as his experience but one does not need to become a Buddhist. It is the same effect by the same regions of the brain. Religious experiences are can be arrived at through non religious means. These are non-religious events they are just a state of being that comes from a spiritual practice or a mindful practice of trying to create the right mental environment.

That's like, you're opinion man.

 

[Tom Cruise]

Kata and eastern tradition have bettered me in the physical aspects of martial arts, as well as developing as a person. Ideologies of respect, discipline, and wholesome commitment are things I adhere to on a daily basis, and are things I learned majorly through traditional philosophy through martial arts. In that sense, TMA is more applicable than MMA. More practically though in any sort of defense situation, meditation and such have improved my understanding of not only technique, but overcoming pain, and ultimately progressing more quickly than if I wouldn't have otherwise. These simple things that conventionally seem useless to western culture have become habits to enforce focus in the application of techniques, be it striking, blocking, disarming, movement, positioning, ect.

There's a lot of benefits from eastern philosophy if you're willing to dedicate yourself. It's a placebo effect. Just like how a hypnotist can't hypnotize you if you refuse, you can't gain anything from repetitious practices if you can't absorb them into your person. Of course it's going to be useless otherwise.

That said, I wouldn't replace sparing, conditioning, or any of the other forms of training with the mental aspect of martial arts. Instead of cutting anything, I manage to make time for all of it. Call it crock if you want, but it's something without words unless you experience it for yourself.

This is a post I made a LONG time ago, but I felt as though it is relevant to the OP.

I do understand where you are coming from as far as a zen mindset improving your performance in martial arts and learning more efficiently and more quickly when you are in this mindset. It is sort of like being in a theta state.

As far as your struggles go and losing your touch with this mindset, I think you need to reflect on who you are as a person in relation to why you are doing this in the first place. Obviously, you still hold these views and you've stumbled along the way in trying to maintain actively keeping these thoughts in practice.

Personally, I have had a lot of struggles with keeping my own mindset due to my conflicts with mental disorders and personal stress in my life over a lot of things over the years, but I remind myself what defines me. I remind myself, not through thought, but through my actions why I do what I do, and how the actions I take are an extension of my person. What has helped me overcome these obstacles in regards to martial arts (since this is the context presented) is knowing that I want to show others that these philosophies are effective, and I have to stay true to really show that. I know that if I can be effective, even though I am not an overly aggressive person (as far as personality is concerned, and not necessarily how I fight) that what I am doing is true and effective, even if it is different from what other people are doing.

Perhaps that sort of method can help you retain what is valuable to you. I don't know what drives you in wanting to have a zen mentality, but whatever it is you have to know within yourself that it is true and right, and you will find your way and get back on track.

 

[ChachiKiller]

That's like, you're opinion man.

Sometimes opinion is not just based on what you think but what you learn. The same parts of the brain are lit up. I am saying what I said based on schooling and professors. I am not sure where you got your info. Csikszentmihalyi is taught in sports psychology. The only problem is you provided a strong opinion which could have confused the poster. Your info was not close to what is known in science.

 

[GoodHeadkick]

Did that.

And my face remained extremely zen-like and calm.

Decided to up the bar and ask for a kick in the nuts..

Not so zen-like and calm.

_____________________________________
Develop Explosive Power and Strength in Martial Arts in only 20-30 minutes per week at http://www.powerathlete.info

ask somebody to knee you on the liver a couple of times and see if it works

 

[GoodHeadkick]

I actually visited a couple buddhist temples in the past and think I might return to that.

Ultimately this is the reason why Samurais made buddhism their religion. Whereas Shinto was the prominent faith.

Since it allowed them to fight with a sense of detachment and no fear of death. Which would be particularly more crucial with sword fighting. Where death could be imminent with just one move.

But I like the point you made about upping the bar. It's true anyone can be zen like to a certain degree in already calming environment. Being able to be centred in true chaos where you know there can be damage done is upping the bar.

_____________________________________
Develop Explosive Power and Strength in Martial Arts in only 20-30 minutes per week at http://www.powerathlete.info

Glad that is working out for you. In Buddhism they say that you really haven't meditated until you have meditated while you are sick. Flat out, it is easier to have a detached mind when you are doing something clean like kendo compared to something rough like MMA. People who care about meditating while doing martial arts are going to gravitate to arts that facilitate it.

Functionally, you just turned up the difficulty on your practice, so good job.

If Zen is your thing though, I would talk to a monk. There are all kinds of false enlightenment states and it is easy being caught up in the euphoria of one that isn't true or sustainable.

I struggle with the same things, becoming overly tense or nervous before a sparring match that I think has to potential to injure me, and then doing mental exercises that over relax me, then becoming aggravated or angry when the bombs start dropping.

Sports psychology is a big deal, and hard to get right.

 

[GoodHeadkick]

That's the thing this mindset if a sense of active relaxation. Where you are very aware but not focused on any one thing. It's a contradiction of sorts.

Whereas most people mix feeling spaced out, lethargic, mellow or chilled as a Zen mind. Which is how it can look on the outside. But on the inside when it's right its very calm on the surface but very active on the inside without holding any attachment to one idea or feeling.

_____________________________________
Develop Explosive Power and Strength in Martial Arts in only 20-30 minutes per week at http://www.powerathlete.info

if i get too relaxed i go into anterior pelvic tilt and don't return my hands quickly enough. getting too much 'zen' isn't good for me. of course i can go zen when i am sparring light and sparring people that aren't up to par.

but in the end when i spar someone on national++ level i need to stay very concious or fall into the traps.

u don't fall into bad habits when you do this?

 

[GoodHeadkick]

I think you are right some things have changed in my personal life too.

Being a businessman I found myself more engaged in business. Letting that define me to a certain degree who I was as a person.

Whereas now I feel I am going back to the basics and reminding myself nothing really matters in the end. When we go out, we all go out with nothing to take with us.
_____________________________________
Develop Explosive Power and Strength in Martial Arts in only 20-30 minutes per week at http://www.powerathlete.info

This is a post I made a LONG time ago, but I felt as though it is relevant to the OP.

I do understand where you are coming from as far as a zen mindset improving your performance in martial arts and learning more efficiently and more quickly when you are in this mindset. It is sort of like being in a theta state.

As far as your struggles go and losing your touch with this mindset, I think you need to reflect on who you are as a person in relation to why you are doing this in the first place. Obviously, you still hold these views and you've stumbled along the way in trying to maintain actively keeping these thoughts in practice.

Personally, I have had a lot of struggles with keeping my own mindset due to my conflicts with mental disorders and personal stress in my life over a lot of things over the years, but I remind myself what defines me. I remind myself, not through thought, but through my actions why I do what I do, and how the actions I take are an extension of my person. What has helped me overcome these obstacles in regards to martial arts (since this is the context presented) is knowing that I want to show others that these philosophies are effective, and I have to stay true to really show that. I know that if I can be effective, even though I am not an overly aggressive person (as far as personality is concerned, and not necessarily how I fight) that what I am doing is true and effective, even if it is different from what other people are doing.

Perhaps that sort of method can help you retain what is valuable to you. I don't know what drives you in wanting to have a zen mentality, but whatever it is you have to know within yourself that it is true and right, and you will find your way and get back on track.

 

[Azam]

I train in kyokushin karate, try to meditate everyday, and I'm big into Zen philosophies and the concept of training until you have no mind, or mushin. I try to enter a state of not thinking, just reacting and letting my techniques execute almost automatically. I've only been training for a little over a year so I haven't quite reached that point but I have noticed recently that in our lighter sparring sessions, i'm incredibly relaxed and my mind just picks out openings in the opponent without me actively seeking them out. I think the zen mind and a fighters mindset in general is a very underappreciated, under trained aspect of fighting.

I think as well having a calm relaxed mind helps as well as being generally relaxed during sparring, fighting or in training. It's not easy to do - thankfully I'm pretty calm almost all the time until I get cleanly tagged with a powerful kick/punch lol.

It's a no brainer why many fighting philosophies like Zen stress Mushin or having no mind because it allows maximal reflex, speed and allows pure fighting instinct to manifest without restriction. When your mind tenses up or even your body, so do your movements - in internal martial arts like yiquan, taikiken or even tai'chi or yoga - a significant point is made on remaining relaxed/calm because it opens up the body. In a fight/sparring scenario less tension means better economy of energy (stamina).

 

[GoatyP]

I just got back from Japan where a Shingon Monk told us that meditation isn't about having an empty mind. It's opening of your mind to allow for thoughts to come and go freely.

That said, you don't need meditation to get into a so-called "zen" state. In fact, I don't think it is very helpful. I think relaxation comes naturally with time as you accumulate hours of practice and fighting.

 

[Azam]

I just got back from Japan where a Shingon Monk told us that meditation isn't about having an empty mind. It's opening of your mind to allow for thoughts to come and go freely.

That said, you don't need meditation to get into a so-called "zen" state. In fact, I don't think it is very helpful. I think relaxation comes naturally with time as you accumulate hours of practice and fighting.

Definitely you don't necessarily need meditation but it's one avenue out of many to achieve the same desired effect. I agree a degree of relaxation comes with accumulated experience but this isn't true of everyone - sometimes all it takes is a powerful enough hit to change your relaxed nature or even if you're being battered heavily by an opponent (losing badly - mismatch) or even when you know consciously you're losing and there is urgency etc etc - there are many instances.

I think all paths to being relaxed are equally valid & effective, it's just that some paths are more effective on a personal level - it's subjective, some people derive much more benefit from meditation that from sparring experience.

I think the best method is just being calm in real-life because you revert to what you are (as a person) in situations where the self is being tested, if you're naturally calm outside in normal life - you'll be the same in the ring/cage or matt. At least that has worked for me - more than anything else.

 

[GoatyP]

That's true... ability to relax has correlation to your personality and temperament while under duress.

Maybe that's why they meditate under icy waterfalls? lol