Zero Carb= Fantastic Results but Questions Remain

[big ugly bear]

***Long post- only the knowledgeable/patient need read***

Everytime I try a zero carb diet I get great results in terms of losing bodyfat and gaining definition. Also, everytime I try it, it seems to be easier than the time before, which would imply that one's body adjusts over time. Even when I don't zero carb, my carbs remain around 100g per day, so they're fairly low by most standards. The amazing thing is, even by removing those few carbs (100g approx), I start to lose fat immediately (I'm not fat, but am smooth most of the time with my abs slightly visible at 210lb, 5'11"), even though I replace the calories with protein and/or fat.

With summer fast approaching here in the UK, I have just started on a zero carb eating style- which for me means that I have ditched my quart of raw milk each day, no yogurt, nuts or fruit, but a salad or vegetables once per day. I'm basically following Vince Gironda's maximum definition diet, which he claimed to get the best results with. I'm eating about 1 1/2 to 2lb of fatty meat a day, plus a dozen eggs with a bit of cheddar cheese mixed in. I eat 3 times per day, eschewing the usual 6 meals followed by many trainees (many of the leanest pre-roid bodybuilders like Zabo and Gironda, ate only 2 meals per day). I also drink about 3- 5 litres of water per day. Every 4th day I will have a huge carb meal of around 200-300g of carbs.

One week in and I feel absolutely great, apart from just after the carb meal where I feel relaxed but sleepy with it. I have mental clarity more or less the whole of the day, and when I arrive back from work in the evenings, I don't slump down in a chair but immediately start doing chores, etc, without having to make a decision/effort to do so. It just sort of happens. Energy is either there or it is not. Suprisingly, I have more energy the less carbs I eat, which goes against the grain (no pun intended!) of conventional wisdom which states that carbs are energy giving.

Still, I have a few questions that I wonder if anyone on the board is capable of answering.

1) If the main aim of a very low/zero carb diet is bodyfat reduction, which apparently allows the body to go into ketosis after glycogen has been spent from the liver/muscles, then why carb load at regular intervals? If the underlying theory of ketosis is correct, then one cannot be in ketosis until the new glycogen stores have been depleted (I know glycogen is refuelled for performance purposes).

2) Do we need glycogen in the muscles and liver at all? According to research mentioned in separate books by Randy Roach, Barry Groves and Gary Taubes, athletes placed on a zero carb diet initially had a decrease in performance, but after 4 weeks of no carbs, their bodies had adjusted and their performance had returned to previous levels. In those athletes, where would the glycogen come from to power their bodies?

3) The brain relies on glucose to function and apparently it needs about a third of all the calories we eat. In a zero carb diet, the body manufactures glucose from protein in a process known as glucogenesis. Does anyone know how long this process takes? Very occasionally I will get 'brain fog' on a zero carb diet, which I assume is my brain being starved of glucose. If I was to ingest protein and fat at that point, roughly (obviously it will differ based on the indidvidual and type/amount of food eaten) how long would it take for my brain to get the necessary glucose? Ballpark figures please. Are we talking minutes or hours?

4) My repping endurance seems to increase when zero carbing, which one would not predict. The detriment to my performance comes in terms of lost speed and power. My strength/slow lifts never seem to be affected, but my olympic lifts- cleans and snatches, and my sprinting speed seem to decrease. I just feel too relaxed to have any kind of snap or explosiveness. My explosiveness/aggression only seems to return the day after a carbo load. Is there a way around this re question 2? Or does this imply that from a performance perspective, carbs are absolutely essential?

Can anyone clear these questions up?

Thanks.

 

[Shogun Rua***]

Damn, zero carbs? More power to you!! Sounds painful:icon_neut

 

[Gradstudent78]

3) The brain relies on glucose to function and apparently it needs about a third of all the calories we eat. In a zero carb diet, the body manufactures glucose from protein in a process known as glucogenesis. Does anyone know how long this process takes? Very occasionally I will get 'brain fog' on a zero carb diet, which I assume is my brain being starved of glucose. If I was to ingest protein and fat at that point, roughly (obviously it will differ based on the indidvidual and type/amount of food eaten) how long would it take for my brain to get the necessary glucose? Ballpark figures please. Are we talking minutes or hours?

The brain can also use ketones.

 

[Sinister]

First things first, the main purpose of low/no carb nutrition is not body fat loss, that's just a happy side-effect. The most important purpose this aspect of nutrition performs, is controlling insulin.

1) Super-compensation (which you've called "carb loading"), is done to maximize a period of insulin secretion. Depletion of glycogen is done to maximize this effect. When done properly, it's the ONLY way to actually gain lean muscle mass while otherwise doing low/zero carb eating.

2) The body can make glycogen out of just about anything, the liver is fantastic for this. It's a biological mechanism that usually only happens during starvation (particularly to protein). True low/no-carb regimens are supposed to mimic the effects of starvation, minus the eventual Death part.

3) I don't know where you got that from, but the brain can function just fine without glucose. In fact, the period of time after the initial depletion of blood-glucose where you go from a miserable to a euphoric state is when the brain switched to being fueled by ketone bodies. Now, if you're not in ketosis, the brain can use what little blood-glucose you have, but there's no set time period for glucogenesis that I'm aware of, because it can be determined by many variables.

4) Adaptability is necessary. And you also can use added supplementation to provide nutrients that aren't carbohydrates, but assist in keeping up speed and power. For instance, creatine monohydrate can be mixed with an insulin mimetic, rather than a sugar, and you'll get the same result. But typically the longer you stay low/zero carb, the better your body will adapt and like endurance, muscle efficiency in-terms of speed and power should be easy to increase.

A few of my clients on very low-carb, or carb-cycling regimens are leaner, and stronger than they were prior to. As am I myself. But it takes time, biological processes don't happen over night, nor in a matter of weeks/months in some cases.

P.S. - Nice AV of Liston. I also Box.

 

[bubbylcox]

ive been doing it for 6 weeks and I have lost 39 pounds

 

[ss4vegeta1]

Its very hard to do no carb, at least for me. I did it a few years ago when I didn't know much about nutrition. But that was worse. That was a no carb low fat diet. Imagine that hell. My biggest problem now is sticking to my diet. But I am always on the go as a fulltime student and fulltime worker. Training was really hard this year. MANY times I had to not go to the gym cause I had to finish up on school work or get that extra nap in for energy.

 

[Sinister]

I don't care what your nutrition, workout, and work scheduling is...naps are AWESOME.

 

[miaou]

3) I don't know where you got that from, but the brain can function just fine without glucose. In fact, the period of time after the initial depletion of blood-glucose where you go from a miserable to a euphoric state is when the brain switched to being fueled by ketone bodies. Now, if you're not in ketosis, the brain can use what little blood-glucose you have, but there's no set time period for glucogenesis that I'm aware of, because it can be determined by many variables.

Good post. What happens when on a very-low-carb diet (but not zero-carb), the dietary glucose is just enough to cover anaerobic exercise energy needs?

Do you get in a state of partial ketosis (so to speak) or is it that all systems that would normally require glucose share the dietary glucose and get the rest from proteolysis and the free amino acid pool, and the brain makes no adaptations at all towards using ketone bodies?

I don't know if I am stating my question clearly enough(!).

 

[ss4vegeta1]

I don't care what your nutrition, workout, and work scheduling is...naps are AWESOME.

Chill dude I meant sleep in the place of the word nap. Naps are awesome. What I meant is I would have to sleep a little more before waking up. But napping though my day is something more people including myself should do more.

 

[Sinister]

Good post. What happens when on a very-low-carb diet (but not zero-carb), the dietary glucose is just enough to cover anaerobic exercise energy needs?

Do you get in a state of partial ketosis (so to speak) or is it that all systems that would normally require glucose share the dietary glucose and get the rest from proteolysis and the free amino acid pool, and the brain makes no adaptations at all towards using ketone bodies?

I don't know if I am stating my question clearly enough(!).

Nah there's no state of partial ketosis. You can have low blood-sugar, but you have to be careful you don't go hypo. Your second paragraph is more accurate, the body will find ways to make glucose at least for the brain and for muscle glycogen as long as it can. This is, of course, assuming that a person is slightly hyperinsulinemic and the body is doing everything to keep stored fat stored. People who lean more towards hypoglycemia have a bit different biological processes.

But this very issue is why the medical community (and subsequently, athletic community) confuses people by saying glucose is the "preferred" fuel source for the body. That is not accurate, it's the first used, but not the most used at all throughout the course of the day barring specific conditions. Just more people (especially in today's carb-heavy days) have those specific conditions than the medical community likes to acknowledge.

 

[Sinister]

Chill dude I meant sleep in the place of the word nap. Naps are awesome. What I meant is I would have to sleep a little more before waking up. But napping though my day is something more people including myself should do more.

I'm perfectly chill, just relaying that naps rule, period.

 

[mean beans]

I'm perfectly chill, just relaying that naps rule, period.

Naps are hard beat for bringing back your concentration and attention level after working all day.

I used to have two jobs and with a 30 minute nap in between it was no problem, without the nap it was a drag. You would be surprised how much you can refresh your concentration and attention levels. Even a 20 minute nap.

 

[onesh0t]

I can't nap. Takes me about 20 min to get to sleep. Then about 7 hours to wake up. Lose - lose situation.

 

[hitmanz]

***Long post- only the knowledgeable/patient need read***

Everytime I try a zero carb diet I get great results in terms of losing bodyfat and gaining definition. Also, everytime I try it, it seems to be easier than the time before, which would imply that one's body adjusts over time. Even when I don't zero carb, my carbs remain around 100g per day, so they're fairly low by most standards. The amazing thing is, even by removing those few carbs (100g approx), I start to lose fat immediately (I'm not fat, but am smooth most of the time with my abs slightly visible at 210lb, 5'11"), even though I replace the calories with protein and/or fat.

/QUOTE]

Please share your meal plan for an average day.

 

[Corrosion]

I've switched to a pretty low carb diet (not zero carbs...that seems impossible unless you only eat meat) and lost 20 lbs in three weeks. My performance has dropped off considerably, but I think that has more to do with eating too little.

1) Super-compensation (which you've called "carb loading"), is done to maximize a period of insulin secretion. Depletion of glycogen is done to maximize this effect. When done properly, it's the ONLY way to actually gain lean muscle mass while otherwise doing low/zero carb eating.

So, you accomplish "super-compensation" with strictly PWO carbs? Or just any high carb meal?

 

[Steakeater**]

I've switched to a pretty low carb diet (not zero carbs...that seems impossible unless you only eat meat) and lost 20 lbs in three weeks. My performance has dropped off considerably, but I think that has more to do with eating too little.



So, you accomplish "super-compensation" with strictly PWO carbs? Or just any high carb meal?

glycogen supercompensation works best when your muscle glycogens are empty, so id steer away from PWO carbs, or at least carb load after a workout if you had PWO carbs last w/o

 

[Corrosion]

glycogen supercompensation works best when your muscle glycogens are empty, so id steer away from PWO carbs, or at least carb load after a workout if you had PWO carbs last w/o

For the record, I mean PWO = Post-workout

Wouldn't glycogen stores be lowest after a workout or in the morning?

 

[Steakeater**]

For the record, I mean PWO = Post-workout

Wouldn't glycogen stores be lowest after a workout or in the morning?

Thats liver glycogen, for both w/o and morning

muscle glycogen gets depleted from workouts, endurance, weights, etc. and muscle glycogen can hold much more carbs/glycogen than the liver

 

[Corrosion]

Thats liver glycogen, for both w/o and morning

muscle glycogen gets depleted from workouts, endurance, weights, etc. and muscle glycogen can hold much more carbs/glycogen than the liver

Ahhh okay. I thought that is what he was talking about. Thanks.

 

[Steakeater**]

Ahhh okay. I thought that is what he was talking about. Thanks.

This is how cyclical ketogenic diets, like UD2 and Anabolic diet, lets you eat all those carbs on the weekends and get stronger but still lose bodyfat at the same time. You you eat no or low carbs throughout the week and when you carb load, all those carbs get stored into glycogen instead of fat.

Then after the supercompensation, you basically kick ass on your Monday workout.

There were stories of people losing fat while eating 5000+ calories of carbs alone on the weekends.