Zhan zhuang / Yiquan / Taikiken

[Hotora86]

I essentially agree but at the same time when some arts come into contact with other arts they sometimes lose what makes them special. For example, when you look at japanese goju ryu, alot of what I've seen is basically shotokan. They don't fight close range or out of a cat stance like they used to. Also sometimes techniques get forgotten, which is unfortunate. Hopefully now that we have the net and video this won't happen as much.

I don't think Shotokan is to blame, rather uniformity and vanity. I think Japanese Goju guys wanted to join tournaments and such so they changed their sparring to the most popular format around. But that's adapting in the wrong way, "dumbing down" and limiting the art for superficial reasons (like wanting to compete in tournaments and win medals). From a sports point of view it makes sense but we're aiming for a practical martial art, not a fun sport. The Olympics killed WTF TKD because of the same attitude IMHO.

 

[CFGroup]

Yeah I definitely agree - you get a lot of breathing techniques in karate that are just basically nonsense or just for the sound.

Most of the breathing techniques I use are from kundalini yoga. You ever tried it? I highly recommend some of their breathing techniques - it feels dizzying at first but I noticed that after doing it regularly it has made an impact on my alertness over time especially when tiring. I know it's a big thing in some bjj/karate circles.

Hell just breathing in from your nose and out from your mouth makes a huge difference to your cardiac output. After cycling regularly nowadays I've made more of a conscious effort to do that and it's made a big difference in how long I'm lasting in sparring compared to before.

Hey man try just breathing through your nose on you cycle rides. It puts a drag on you diaphragm and breathing structure increasing it's efficiency. I use to regulate my breathing in my 4 mile runs with it to balance my speed to my breathing. 8 strides per full inhale and outhale. Then breath through my mouth for the last 220 yard sprint and close up for the cool down jog trying to regain balanced breathing as quickly as possible. It really helped me conserve energy in competition and heavy training.

You can do the same type of thing with cycling if you have really hard hills in your route. The sprint and cool down are the important parts to focus on, that's the high output sparring 1 min rest equivalent to get your wind back. Cycling increases extended breathing endurance, running increases short high output endurance in my experience. Both combined translated the best to training.

 

[Hotora86]

http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/four-paradoxes-of-standing-meditation/

More food for thought on Zhan Zhuang and Wang Xiangzhai himself.

Some of the statements seem slightly controversial:

• "His standing meditation training produced superior results in a shorter time period, when compared to methods used in boxing, Judo, and other styles of Kung Fu."
• "This is exercise of the muscular and vascular systems, exercise for all cells of the body."
• "Martial artists today cannot hope to match his great accomplishment, unless they are willing to stand first, and ask questions later."

 

[Thycidides]

I don't think Shotokan is to blame, rather uniformity and vanity. I think Japanese Goju guys wanted to join tournaments and such so they changed their sparring to the most popular format around. But that's adapting in the wrong way, "dumbing down" and limiting the art for superficial reasons (like wanting to compete in tournaments and win medals). From a sports point of view it makes sense but we're aiming for a practical martial art, not a fun sport. The Olympics killed WTF TKD because of the same attitude IMHO.

I see this sentiment expressed a lot but I don't think a lot of the people doing so have thought about the implications.

What exactly is a practical martial art? MMA? Boxing? I'm pretty sure you and most karate fans are much more comfortable sparring in a manner similar to WTF TKD than pro mma or even ammy boxing.

Similarly some people imply Olympic judo is for pussies because the ruleset is limited and only a few throws really score. but they would shit themselves if they had to randori with Teddy Rinner.

I imagine similarly Olympic TKD training and sparring is actually pretty intense and some of the people saying it is weak would have trouble going to a work out with Olympic teams or would suddenly sign up fort TKD tournament if full contact punches where winning moves.

One of the reasons injury rate in MMA Is so high is a lot of things are going on and a lot of things can go wrong. The complexity means more injuries are more likely... I would like the ammy version to have more limitations so I could compete and train in it and not worry about going to work next day.

 

[Hotora86]

What exactly is a practical martial art? MMA? Boxing? I'm pretty sure you are much more comfortable sparring in a manner similar to WTF TKD than pro mma.

Not with my hands hanging at my waist I'm not...

Sorry, I'm not trying to bash WTF TKD, it has its merits for sure BUT it is from TKD practitioners themselves I have heard vocal disappointment with the Olympic rules. The same kind of gripes are voiced by the Judo community every year with techniques getting banned and ground grappling further limited.

I'm sorry if I have opened a Pandora's box with my imprudent comment on WTF TKD, I really don't want to argue about it and this thread is about something else anyway...

 

[Thycidides]

Not with my hands hanging at my waist I'm not...

Sorry, I'm not trying to bash WTF TKD, it has its merits for sure BUT it is from TKD practitioners themselves I have heard vocal disappointment with the Olympic rules. The same kind of gripes are voiced by the Judo community every year with techniques getting banned and ground grappling further limited.

I'm sorry if I have opened a Pandora's box with my imprudent comment on WTF TKD, I really don't want to argue about it and this thread is about something else anyway...

Actually I could just as easily made my response to the link about standing meditation being superior to what judo athletes do. I kind doubt that is true. If this guy is so clever with his method he could easily train judo for a year and go on to toss around other beginners at a tournament and or train someone else to do the same.

This guy sounds like he has no idea haw hard pro athletes train know days.

 

[Hotora86]

Actually I could just as easily made my response to the link about standing meditation being superior to what judo athletes do. I kind doubt that is true. If this guy is so clever with his method he could easily train judo for a year and go on to toss around other beginners at a tournament and or train someone else to do the same.

This guy sounds like he has no idea haw hard pro athletes train know days.

Having done Judo I would have to disagree with him as well, that's why I said his opinions are "controversial". Though he doesn't specify what kind of "superior results" he means. If he means "health benefits without risk of injury" then perhaps. If he means "fighting skills" then HAHAHA.

I think that similarly to some Aikido devotees (stepping on thin ice again) he is forgetting that the founder personally studied and tested many other martial systems before distilling his own combat experience into an art, which: 1) is great for someone with a similar skillset OR 2) can be an excellent supplement to other arts. For example, I personally felt that Aikido was complementing my Judo and vice versa.

The fact that Zhan Zhuang / Taikiken training is used as a supplement to Bagua and Kyokushin respectively seems to prove my point.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

For example, I personally felt that Aikido was complementing my Judo and vice versa.

I know this is the standup forum but could you explain in what ways aikido helped your judo game?

 

[Thycidides]

I know this is the standup forum but could you explain in what ways aikido helped your judo game?

Some of the footwork and drills are more or less the same in both. Especially if you train with a coach who is in his 40's and retired from competition like I do. Old man judo is more or less Aikido or at least very similar.

Its kind of frustrating for me because I'm young and competitive, but I understand most peoplea are not as competitive as I am

People shit on Aikido but most people I know would prefer to spend 30 min doing aikido kata than 30 min intense judo randori.

 

[Hotora86]

I know this is the standup forum but could you explain in what ways aikido helped your judo game?

As mentioned above by @Thycidides, Judo and Aikido share drills & footwork and many old Judoka "retire" to Aikido where they can still use their Judo skills in a less aggressive, less competitive and injury-prone setting.

Both arts also use similar mechanics but explain and practice them differently. A personal example: in Judo the coach would tell me to "pull this arm down and raise the other" before executing a certain throw. This was slightly confusing to me as a beginner and I would often focus on one arm too much. Explaining a similar looking throw my Aikido sensei said "imagine turning a huge wheel" - and immediately I understood the motion and executed it fluidly with both hands. I tried the same approach in Judo and my technique improved.

On the other hand I've noticed that for many "arm throws" of Aikido - if the opponent is resisting well and refuses to be thrown, you can always add some hip / leg and effort to the technique - and suddenly you get a very Judo-like throw.

This leads me to the Kuzushi aspect. Kuzushi (unbalancing) is a major part of every Judo, Aikido and Jujitsu technique. There are many articles written on the subject, like the ones below:
http://judoinfo.com/kuzushi/
http://judoinfo.com/kuzushi1/
(both great reads for a Judoka BTW)

To me, Judo is (greatly simplified) "Kuzushi + effort".
Aikido on the other hand (again simplified) "Kuzushi - effort".

I have heard some people (even Judoka) say that "Aikido is perfect Judo". I understand it like this: if Kuzushi is done perfectly (especially if the opponent can't resist OR has just taken a hit (atemi!)) he will be thrown to the ground effortlessly in 'perfect' fluid motion.

This is the goal of Aikido technique - but also of Judo technique! Only in Judo you never imagine such a scenario since everyone's resisting in randori and most throws are forced. But even in Judo competition, given certain conditions and appropriate skill, some throws look beautifully effortless, Aikido-like.

Of course, before you learn to walk you have to learn to crawl - and before you learn to throw people effortlessly you have to try throwing resisting opponents to see when and where effort should be applied and when and where it isn't necessary.

 

[Azam]

http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/four-paradoxes-of-standing-meditation/

More food for thought on Zhan Zhuang and Wang Xiangzhai himself.

Some of the statements seem slightly controversial:

• "His standing meditation training produced superior results in a shorter time period, when compared to methods used in boxing, Judo, and other styles of Kung Fu."
• "This is exercise of the muscular and vascular systems, exercise for all cells of the body."
• "Martial artists today cannot hope to match his great accomplishment, unless they are willing to stand first, and ask questions later."

Yeah those are pretty controversial statements. It's important to note though that this isn't coming from Wang Xiangzhai himself but from his students & their students. Unfortunately people who weren't there first hand tend to exaggerate - you have that happening throughout martial arts regardless of style.

From what I've read of Wang Xiangzhai he was a very reasonable man, didn't over-inflate his abilities or what was possible with yiquan and pretty much kept to himself.

I will say though the biggest benefit I did get from the little yiquan training I did - was mainly footwork/parrying. It really helped my parrying - just less thought and more instinctively parrying without any thinking involved.

Standing meditation does produce results but it's take years for it to develop. It requires life long practice. It's anything but short. Those are words that are also said by Wang & Sawai. The other two statements seem like gibberish.

 

[CFGroup]

There's a hive of Judo/Aikido BB's around Boston and their Waza and Ukemi is amazing!

One in particular is competition age and a regular on the NE tourny circuit.

The mechanics are the same, the approach is what differs.

The traditional arts focus on minutia and perfection of technique that translates amazingly to resistance skill.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

The standing meditation stuff is very interesting and seems like it would be a very worthwhile supplementary exercise. The Yiquan itself to me is well.....

I've read the founder did the Bruce Lee thing and felt Xing Yi Quan he saw was essentially falling into the classical mess route and attempted to fix it by dropping the Xing and making Yi Quan but from what ive seen it looks like its worse off that the Xing yi ive seen applied in practical terms.

 

[Hotora86]

The standing meditation stuff is very interesting and seems like it would be a very worthwhile supplementary exercise. The Yiquan itself to me is well.....

I've read the founder did the Bruce Lee thing and felt Xing Yi Quan he saw was essentially falling into the classical mess route and attempted to fix it by dropping the Xing and making Yi Quan but from what ive seen it looks like its worse off that the Xing yi ive seen applied in practical terms.

That's interesting. What have you seen?

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

That's interesting. What have you seen?

If this was what the founder reduced XingYi Quan too then it seems to be just flail flail push flail flail push push.

 

[Hotora86]

If this was what the founder reduced XingYi Quan too then it seems to be just flail flail push flail flail push push.

Thanks for the vids.

The bag work was shit.
Tui Shou and San Shou wasn't as bad.
Sparring was meh.
Other than that it looks to me like these guys can't rent a proper matted dojo to save their life!

Like I said before, Wang (founder) studied every art he could get his hands on for decades before he founded Yiquan - that's why it 'worked' for him. These guys seem to have studied nothing but a bit of Wing Chun. Give them a year under a legit boxing coach and the "intent" and "flow" of Yiquan may actually be beneficial IMO.

 

[CFGroup]

Thanks for the vids.

The bag work was shit.
Tui Shou and San Shou wasn't as bad.
Sparring was meh.
Other than that it looks to me like these guys can't rent a proper matted dojo to save their life!

Like I said before, Wang (founder) studied every art he could get his hands on for decades before he founded Yiquan - that's why it 'worked' for him. These guys seem to have studied nothing but a bit of Wing Chun. Give them a year under a legit boxing coach and the "intent" and "flow" of Yiquan may actually be beneficial IMO.

It's all about context. Most of those clips looked painfully sophomoric, but what is effective with gloves and an established starting bell is already known. The push hands was the best part because the goal is to destabilize your opponent in traditional times to recover a weapon.

 

[wang xiangzhai]

Wait, hold on second. You guys are talking Yiquan and not @ the old man himself. I'm disappoint son.

Anyways, seeing that you guys think the bag work is shit we better leave at that. I'll see myself out. Laters.

 

[Hotora86]

Wait, hold on second. You guys are talking Yiquan and not @ the old man himself. I'm disappoint son.

Anyways, seeing that you guys think the bag work is shit we better leave at that. I'll see myself out. Laters.

Oh come on, old bro. Don't give up so easily. Was it you in one of those bagwork vids?

Srsly tho, I am eager to hear any input, especially from someone who has trained Zhan Zhuang or Yiquan himself.

BTW I recently hurt my left knee and I have a suspicion that Zhan Zhuang may have had something to do with it - not the practice itself but rather the warm-up exercise - knees together and rotating clockwise and anti-clockwise. Maybe I was doing it too fast, not sure.

 

[dudeguyman]

will look into it, but i'm very skeptical with anything from Chinese culture in this day an age. though reading through some of these guys posts it may be beneficial in some way.