Zhongguo Zhen Gongfu (CFC). Pro-Sanda revival

[kenpeters8]

Whats not realistic is expecting a fight to be 1 on 1. Ground grappling will get you kicked in the face if there are more than 2 people involved. Also, dont you want to know who the best pure striker/wrestler/grappler is? MMA cant tell you that.

Do you even train? LOL! Obviously not!

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Okay so the Chinese fans are "idiots" because they prefer Kickboxing. I guess we're all idiots on this forum as well.

Ya, Boxing fans never talk about how superior their sport is...

No dude, you missed the point. If you read their comments you'll know what I'm talking about. I watch kickboxing and I have no problem with people who does. However, when they start to comment things like "Sanda only wins matches through wrestling and we should get rid of wrestling because its impractical and not in conformation to internationally recognized matches (like K 1), the level of striking is so poor because there are no knockouts." You know the guy is an idiot who never trained in his life, and in fact most of these guys haven't because MA is still more of a luxury over there and we just have a bunch of keyboard warriors making these comments. Most boxing fans I know at least recognize that the top boxers would probably lose to the top MMA fighter.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

To the Cung Le clueless fan boys that's so excited about Cung Le's throwing or takedown skills, you guys need to remember and keep this in mind. Cung Le couldn't even throw Scott Smith in MMA. Wanderlei Silva, Michael Bisping, he couldn't even throw them! Cung Le's throwing and takedown skills is OVERRATED! It only works on weaker opponents.

People who have no idea of Le's wrestling background and matches are the ones who are clueless.
You haven't watched the Smith fight have you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFvebmE9bOM
Look at 2:30 where Le picked Smith up and ragdolled him effortlessly.
Le took Cote down at will and you think he can't take Smith down?


There is a difference between not able to and not trying to. I have yet to see Le even making attempts at takedowns and getting stuffed (except the sole instance of getting rocked by Wanderlei at the end of their fight) Cung Le has little ground game and hence he does not want to take the fight to the ground and get submitted. He has stated this himself:

"The first time I saw MMA, it was crazy," Le remembers. "It was light guys against heavy guys. It wasn't until they established weight classes, and then Scott said he was doing his first event in San Jose, that I started training for it at AKA and learned enough to defend against submissions. I was picking everyone up and slamming them, but I had to fight the armbars, chokes and triangles. So I decided I wasn't going to go down to the ground because I'm underwater when I go down."

Add to this is the fact that wrestling wastes lots of your energy and he just didn't attempt them.


Le's wrestling abilities are noted by many fighters.

Frank Shamrock said he could never take down Le when they were sparring whereas Le would take him down at will, but then he will submit Le.

Anthony Johnson said that when he wrestled with Le, it's always a war. Considering AJ is larger than Le, and effortlessly stuffed all of Phil Davis's takedowns, you can only imagine Le's wrestling is on levels of wrestling based fighters like Davis, Bader, Evans, and Sonnen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GteYwPsEpY

Le limited 30% of his moves from Sanshou because he tried to avoid the ground, basically he got rid of offensive wrestling all together.

 

[kenpeters8]

People who have no idea of Le's wrestling background and matches are the ones who are clueless.
You haven't watched the Smith fight have you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFvebmE9bOM
Look at 2:30 where Le picked Smith up and ragdolled him effortlessly.
Le took Cote down at will and you think he can't take Smith down?


There is a difference between not able to and not trying to. I have yet to see Le even making attempts at takedowns and getting stuffed (except the sole instance of getting rocked by Wanderlei at the end of their fight) Cung Le has little ground game and hence he does not want to take the fight to the ground and get submitted. He has stated this himself:

"The first time I saw MMA, it was crazy," Le remembers. "It was light guys against heavy guys. It wasn't until they established weight classes, and then Scott said he was doing his first event in San Jose, that I started training for it at AKA and learned enough to defend against submissions. I was picking everyone up and slamming them, but I had to fight the armbars, chokes and triangles. So I decided I wasn't going to go down to the ground because I'm underwater when I go down."

Add to this is the fact that wrestling wastes lots of your energy and he just didn't attempt them.


Le's wrestling abilities are noted by many fighters.

Frank Shamrock said he could never take down Le when they were sparring whereas Le would take him down at will, but then he will submit Le.

Anthony Johnson said that when he wrestled with Le, it's always a war. Considering AJ is larger than Le, and effortlessly stuffed all of Phil Davis's takedowns, you can only imagine Le's wrestling is on levels of wrestling based fighters like Davis, Bader, Evans, and Sonnen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GteYwPsEpY

Le limited 30% of his moves from Sanshou because he tried to avoid the ground, basically he got rid of offensive wrestling all together.

Whatever clueless fan boy.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Whatever clueless fan boy.

Clueless isn't a sin, but a person who is clueless and dense at the same time is helpless. You clearly haven't even watched the fights you are pretending to talk about yet you have the stupidity to comment on it, the only thing you are doing, is embarrassing yourself.

 

[SuperLuigi]

He is clearly trying to get a rise out of people and failing miserably.

 

[Ghos]

He is clearly trying to get a rise out of people and failing miserably.

This probably the worst part of the forum to try and troll on. :icon_lol:

 

[ironwolf]

Okay so the Chinese fans are "idiots" because they prefer Kickboxing. I guess we're all idiots on this forum as well.

Ya, Boxing fans never talk about how superior their sport is...

Chinese fans really suck. I've been to lots of fights and when a non Chinese person wins it's dead silence, not just that but Chinese spectators are just incredibly rude to no. Chinese competitors in general, throwing garbage and spitting at foreigners who win. It's ridiculous. I've even seen fights break out because somebody cheered for the non Chinese guy.

I've done Muay Thai and kickboxing matches here and had to get escorted by security out the back door because people wanted to attack the foreigners for wi. I g tournaments.

I'm not Chinese ftr, I've lived in China for a long time though.

As for the unified rules, lots of interclub events use it.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Ya I've certainly noticed a negative attitude towards foreigners. They literally only cheer when the Chinese fighter seemingly lands something. Maybe they are idiots, but I don't think they are because they don't want to watch wrestling in Sanda.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Chinese fans really suck. I've been to lots of fights and when a non Chinese person wins it's dead silence, not just that but Chinese spectators are just incredibly rude to no. Chinese competitors in general, throwing garbage and spitting at foreigners who win. It's ridiculous. I've even seen fights break out because somebody cheered for the non Chinese guy.

I've done Muay Thai and kickboxing matches here and had to get escorted by security out the back door because people wanted to attack the foreigners for wi. I g tournaments.

I'm not Chinese ftr, I've lived in China for a long time though.

As for the unified rules, lots of interclub events use it.

Ya I've certainly noticed a negative attitude towards foreigners. They literally only cheer when the Chinese fighter seemingly lands something. Maybe they are idiots, but I don't think they are because they don't want to watch wrestling in Sanda.

This mentality is actually relevant to my complaint. I'm generalizing of course, but American fans for the most part watch a sport for entertainment and the skills involved. Chinese fans tend to watch Chinese fighters win; except trained people, many generally don't care about the skill set involved and appreciate martial arts for martial art's sake cause they never trained for their life. Sanda doesn't give the audience enough KO, hence these idiots wants to get rid of the wrestling element of it. They can't appreciate some of the difficult throws because they don't understand them. You ever wonder why Wu Lingfeng events are generally presented as China vs Foreigners?

 

[Snubnoze707]

When I watched the full event of the last WLF that was posted on the networks YouTube channel, as soon as they announced Jomthong the winner it immediately cut to homeboy in the lightning suit interviewing Chinese fighters in the ring. Didn't even show Jomthong celebrate or given anything for winning the tournament.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

No disrespect to the athletes or the art, but I really can't enjoy watching Sanda.

I'd much rather see K-1 rules become more popular in China and I'd like to see more Chinese fighters on the international stage.

It's strange to me that you see Chinese fighters do so well against top level competition in K-1 rules at the shows they do in China but then we don't get to see that talent on international shows.

The whole Sanda thing has always come off as political to me. The Chinese just want to have their own thing I guess. The Chinese perception of sports is that you compete for the honor of the party/motherland. What better way to just invent your own martial art that only you really compete in to maintain face and stay number one.

Again, people don't appreciate Sanda because they think its just another redundant sport that combines kickboxing and wrestling. Its not. There are ALOT of moves they do there that are either not found or rarely used in other combat sports. In fact, the wrestling element is what makes Sanda unique. Sanda style wrestling isn't the typical MMA wrestling. Its called fast wrestling and there are lots of moves used there not seen in MMA. If you watch enough Sanda fights you can tell. Sanda wrestling came from Shuaijiao which, similar to Judo, is more about clinch wrestling and also kick wrestling. The idea is to use wrestling as a counter to strikes; wrestling moves are executed at the same time an opponent is striking, whether catching a kick and execute many kinds of takedowns from there or use the momentum of their punch to get into the clinch and immediately execute a throw that off balances them or throws them. This is why clinch time is only 2 seconds, the idea is to execute a wrestling move as fast as possible without the opponent being prepared and aware. This is different from constant wrestling pressure in MMA.
Sanda and CMA generally do not compartmentalize striking and wrestling into different things and thats the beauty of it.
Jon Jones and GSP actually uses some of these moves that they use commonly in Sanda and that's why they can take down guys who have more accomplished wrestling credentials. There are lots of these moves that MMA can still look into, but China, being more focused on kickboxing market at his moment, doesn't really try to hone the grappling aspect of Sanda and try MMA instead. Sanda is one of the rare sports where fighters have the potential to transition to both kickboxing and MMA.




Also, since 2011 the rules changed a bit in Amateur matches, above waist throws where you land with the opponent and gets up right away don't score 3 points anymore, but only 2, the same way as a throw where the executor remain standing.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Apparently, I've missed recent updates. It seems either CFC has changed their rules to the old King of Sanda rules last year or they are having different rule sets for different events and its really confusing (anyone who keeps an eye on this could shed some light).

Knees are allowed and the ring is used, and it seems that CFC is trying to make Sanda international by inviting foreign fighters to fight in King of Sanda rule (whereas platform was used for national matches, its confusing...). There are also much more spectacles for this. This is one of CFC's big event last year and might appear more interesting for people who likes knees in the clinch. Zhang Kaiyin fights again and knocks his Thai opponent out in 30 seconds (from 13:13) yet its not even listed in his professional record in wiki. I don't know why he isn't fighting in major events, it might be because of the Chinese Martial Association, but he is only fighting cans recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe7-BjzR-tg

Here is Fang Bian's latest CFC fight last year but it seems to be kickboxing rule... (he apparently fights for both Wu Lingfeng and CFC):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8md0zqG2mis

Also, these matches is interesting in answering the question of wrestling vs knee in clinch fighting. The thing is 80% of the time, the wrestler would throw the knee based fighter on to the floor but in that 20% of time when the Thai clincher does get a good hold and the Sanshou figher cannot get out, hes often in deep water and hope the 2 second or 5 seconds are up.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Thanks for the updates, there is no way I would get this info otherwise.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Ok, after further digging, I think CFC holds ALL kinds of matches on a single card. Weird. It has Sanda matches, K 1 matches, Unified Rule matches, and even roped fisted MT matches. It also seem they don't broadcast a single card so I got some of the dates of the matches confused:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shycxVA0zmE

Wu Lingfeng is Henan broadcast whereas CFC is Shanxi.

 

[ironwolf]

Is love to get a shot at wulinfeng. It always shows so late at night on tv that the only people who really watch it are usually in bars...even locally it's on like after 12am.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

I should probably just make this into a general Sanda thread.

But here are some new updates about the Sanda scene.

Zhang Kaiyin won both the 2013 and 2014 Sanda world cup, he is probably pound for pound, the best Sanda fighter in China in these years (and certainly one of the top in the world). Sanda fighter tends to be more well known in the 75-80 kg category. The heavy weight Sanda fighters who are 90 kg are never popular in the world scene, namely Bian Qingge (just won 2013 world cup at 90 kg) and Huang Lei (who is THE top fighter when weight is taken into account).


For Sanda fighters in kickboxing and Wu Lingfeng I would rank their striking abilities/accomplishments as follows:

1) Fang Bian (knocked out Simon Marcus, picked apart Kaoklai, fought 40 matches and is undefeated)
2) Zhang Kaiyin (knocked out Lam, defeated JWP, KOed Longern)
3) Aotegen Bateer (Drawed Yod, defeated Kaoklai, ok, and a controversial win over Sudsakorn but hes also the best striker in Chinese MMA right now, although he doesn't fight much)


I did not include Zhou Zhipeng because he has a boxing rather than a Sanda background.



Here is someone new you should look out for; a newbie whose only 22 right now just arrived on the scene in 2012 named Zhang Kun; who shocked everyone by picking apart Zhang Kaiyin in 2012 and again in 2013, then he lost a decision to Aotegen Bateer in the national championships but won first place in a rematch against Bateer in another national competition the same year. He lost in a close decision to Zhang Kaiyin in a pro CFC fight in 2013 (I showed the video in my first post). Yet in 2014, he again defeated Zhang in the 75 KG and became the national champion (and the CFC middle weight pro-Sanda champion). Basically, he defeated Zhang 3 times to demonstrate that he was unquestionably better, defeating Bateer once by a wide margin. He also won the Asian Olympics Sanda championship at 70 KG last year.

Pay attention to him in either Wu lingfeng or Chinese MMA. He has tremendous potentials. His wrestling is better than Zhang and Bateer and his striking is good enough to take these two on as well.

Here is a video of him picking apart Zhang Kaiyin in the national finals. Casually outwrestling the later, and almost knocking Kaiyin down in the 2nd round: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1635696897 Red: Zhang Kaiyin, Black: Zhang Kun

 

[SuperLuigi]

Spoiler

I should probably just make this into a general Sanda thread.

But here are some new updates about the Sanda scene.

Zhang Kaiyin won both the 2013 and 2014 Sanda world cup, he is probably pound for pound, the best Sanda fighter in China in these years (and certainly one of the top in the world). Sanda fighter tends to be more well known in the 75-80 kg category. The heavy weight Sanda fighters who are 90 kg are never popular in the world scene, namely Bian Qingge (just won 2013 world cup at 90 kg) and Huang Lei (who is THE top fighter when weight is taken into account).


For Sanda fighters in Wu Lingfeng I would rank their striking abilities/accomplishments as follows:

1) Fang Bian (knocked out Simon Marcus, picked apart Kaoklai)
2) Zhang Kaiyin (knocked out Lam, defeated JWP, KOed Longern)
3) Aotegen Bateer (Drawed Yod, defeated Kaoklai, ok, and a controversial win over Sudsakorn but hes also the best striker in Chinese MMA right now, although he doesn't fight much)


I did not include Zhou Zhipeng because he has a boxing rather than a Sanda background.



Here is someone new you should look out for; a newbie whose only 22 right now just arrived on the scene in 2012 named Zhang Kun; who shocked everyone by picking apart Zhang Kaiyin in 2012 and again in 2013, then he lost a decision to Aotegen Bateer in the national championships but won first place in a rematch against Bateer in another national competition the same year. He lost in a close decision to Zhang Kaiyin in a pro CFC fight in 2013 (I showed the video in my first post). Yet in 2014, he again defeated Zhang in the 75 KG and became the national champion (and the CFC middle weight pro-Sanda champion). Basically, he defeated Zhang 3 times to demonstrate that he was unquestionably better, defeating Bateer once by a wide margin. He also won the Asian Olmpics Sanda championship at 70 KG last year.

Pay attention to him in either Wu Kingfeng or Chinese MMA. He has tremendous potentials. His wrestling is better than Zhang and Bateer and his striking is good enough to take these two on as well.

Here is a video of him picking apart Zhang Kaiyin in the national finals. Casually outwrestling the later, and countering his strikes: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1635696897 Red: Zhang Kaiyin, Black: Zhang Kun

Cool stuff. Can you do a similar breakdown for the women?

 

[Mafanofe]

I should probably just make this into a general Sanda thread.

But here are some new updates about the Sanda scene.

Zhang Kaiyin won both the 2013 and 2014 Sanda world cup, he is probably pound for pound, the best Sanda fighter in China in these years (and certainly one of the top in the world). Sanda fighter tends to be more well known in the 75-80 kg category. The heavy weight Sanda fighters who are 90 kg are never popular in the world scene, namely Bian Qingge (just won 2013 world cup at 90 kg) and Huang Lei (who is THE top fighter when weight is taken into account).


For Sanda fighters in kickboxing and Wu Lingfeng I would rank their striking abilities/accomplishments as follows:

1) Fang Bian (knocked out Simon Marcus, picked apart Kaoklai, fought 40 matches and is undefeated)
2) Zhang Kaiyin (knocked out Lam, defeated JWP, KOed Longern)
3) Aotegen Bateer (Drawed Yod, defeated Kaoklai, ok, and a controversial win over Sudsakorn but hes also the best striker in Chinese MMA right now, although he doesn't fight much)


I did not include Zhou Zhipeng because he has a boxing rather than a Sanda background.



Here is someone new you should look out for; a newbie whose only 22 right now just arrived on the scene in 2012 named Zhang Kun; who shocked everyone by picking apart Zhang Kaiyin in 2012 and again in 2013, then he lost a decision to Aotegen Bateer in the national championships but won first place in a rematch against Bateer in another national competition the same year. He lost in a close decision to Zhang Kaiyin in a pro CFC fight in 2013 (I showed the video in my first post). Yet in 2014, he again defeated Zhang in the 75 KG and became the national champion (and the CFC middle weight pro-Sanda champion). Basically, he defeated Zhang 3 times to demonstrate that he was unquestionably better, defeating Bateer once by a wide margin. He also won the Asian Olympics Sanda championship at 70 KG last year.

Pay attention to him in either Wu lingfeng or Chinese MMA. He has tremendous potentials. His wrestling is better than Zhang and Bateer and his striking is good enough to take these two on as well.

Here is a video of him picking apart Zhang Kaiyin in the national finals. Casually outwrestling the later, and countering his strikes: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/1635696897 Red: Zhang Kaiyin, Black: Zhang Kun

I really like Zhou Zhipeng,he have fast and hard hands,every time cool to watch

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Zhou Zhipeng won the national military boxing championship I think, and went to fight in Wulingfeng so he is primarily a puncher. Not every Chinese fighter in Wu Linfeng has a sanshou background although most of them trained it at some point, even if their primary style wasn't Sanda. Zhou also did traditional Chinese martial arts before boxing however.

Sanda fighters typically have weak hands while having some of the best kicks (you see similar characteristic with Cung Le too), like MT fighters from Thailand, they don't have a lot of punch combos and just go into the clinch for throws. Most of these Sanda fighters has to refine their hands in preparing kickboxing matches. Wang Weihao is one of those who is very traditional in style. He was able to beat Saenchai because of his kicks, but lost to Kraus because of his weaker hands.
Also, if we include Sanda fighters outside of China, Salikhov Muslim is also one of the best strikers, he beat Fang Bian in kickboxing before, although that was four years ago before Fan Bian started his pro-kickboxing career. Muslim is also fighting M 1 Global right now (WW), and might enter the UFC in the future, no one really pays attention to his progress. Lets see how far he goes. I am willing to bet the top Sanda fighters, especially those with strong wresting background, could hang well with high ranked but more striking based UFC fighters with just a year or two of a good training camp. We'll see how far Salikhov goes.