Zhongguo Zhen Gongfu (CFC). Pro-Sanda revival

[Mafanofe]

Zhou Zhipeng won the national military boxing championship I think, and went to fight in Wulingfeng so he is primarily a puncher. Not every Chinese fighter in Wu Linfeng has a sanshou background although most of them trained it at some point, even if their primary style wasn't Sanda. Zhou also did traditional Chinese martial arts before boxing however.

Sanda fighters typically have weak hands while having some of the best kicks (you see similar characteristic with Cung Le too), like MT fighters from Thailand, they don't have a lot of punch combos and just go into the clinch for throws. Most of these Sanda fighters has to refine their hands in preparing kickboxing matches. Wang Weihao is one of those who is very traditional in style. He was able to beat Saenchai because of his kicks, but lost to Kraus because of his weaker hands.
Also, if we include Sanda fighters outside of China, Salikhov Muslim is also one of the best strikers, he beat Fang Bian in kickboxing before, although that was four years ago before Fan Bian started his pro-kickboxing career. Muslim is also fighting M 1 Global right now (WW), and might enter the UFC in the future, no one really pays attention to his progress. Lets see how far he goes. I am willing to bet the top Sanda fighters, especially those with strong wresting background, could hang well with high ranked but more striking based UFC fighters with just a year or two of a good training camp. We'll see how far Salikhov goes.

Yeah,another fighter who i start like to watch when i met him in his fight vs buakaw ins Zhang Chunyu,the dude is also new and very cool

 

[Da Killa]

I am willing to bet the top Sanda fighters, especially those with strong wresting background, could hang well with high ranked but more striking based UFC fighters with just a year or two of a good training camp. We'll see how far Salikhov goes.

I'm skeptical. UFC is desperately looking for Chinese talent so that they can better market UFC in China. If Sanda fighters could easily make the transition to MMA we would have already seen it happen.

 

[ironwolf]

I'm skeptical. UFC is desperately looking for Chinese talent so that they can better market UFC in China. If Sanda fighters could easily make the transition to MMA we would have already seen it happen.

Yup. Unfortunately the mma scene in china is a total joke.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

I'm skeptical. UFC is desperately looking for Chinese talent so that they can better market UFC in China. If Sanda fighters could easily make the transition to MMA we would have already seen it happen.

The same reason Chinese fighters don't fight Glory or K 1. Add to the fact that MMA is just not that popular.
You need to know a few things about Chinese sports administrations. Every fighter, or athelete for that matter in China is under the contract of the state, and in the case of Sanda, the Chinese Martial Association, which formally declared years ago that they will "occasionally allow their fighters to participate in K 1 and never sent their fighters to fight for violent events like MMA." Sanda fighters who fight in MMA are usually either retired or took some off time.
Just because the UFC is looking for them doesn't mean the Chinese Martial Association is going to negotiate. The CMA are the ones providing the training facilities, and their primary focus is the world sanda cups followed by their own sanctioned professional Sanda competitions. Kickboxing and MMA has never been their goal.

Like all other sports, state trained atheletes are the best in China. Most Chinese fighters who competed in MMA today are not state trained, but rather trained in private clubs. These guys have mediocre striking and also mediocre bjj, relying on the later against fighters with no experience on the ground (and hence they get murdered in the UFC). When the best full time MMA striker is Wang Guan, you know the best strikers in China hasn't fought in MMA or took it seriously (Wu Lingfeng and Sanda is much more popular). As of now, only Zhao Zilong is a highlevel Sanda fighter with a decent resume fighting in MMA seriously. However, he is still not elite and his best performance was winning king of Sanda 85kg + in 2002, in a weak division (the champion of this division lost to the lighter 75 kg Yuan Yuhao and Liu Hailong) and he got lucky KO (he was destroyed in the 2003 rematch), his best amateur win was only 3rd place in national competition in 2000 (he is usally placed in 5-12th in other tournaments). For Chinese fighters to do well in the UFC, it would be a striker with a good takedown defense (elite Sanda fighters with some basic bjj training), not a second tier grappler who focuses on submissions.

Bao Ligao and Bateer competed in MMA, and they are undefeated, but they never took it seriously or tried a title shot. Bateer is a good example of someone who seriously wants to enter the UFC but the Chinese Martial Association just didn't give him the opportunity.

I personally believe if Aotegen Bateer gets a good training camp and hone his overall grappling for a year, he will easily be the best MMA fighter in China (if he isn't already). Salikhov Muslim is an example of an elite Sanda fighter going MMA, lets look at his career and see whether my theory stands.

 

[Harukaze]

The same reason Chinese fighters don't fight Glory or K 1. Add to the fact that MMA is just not that popular.
You need to know a few things about Chinese sports administrations. Every fighter, or athelete for that matter in China is under the contract of the state, and in the case of Sanda, the Chinese Martial Association, which formally declared years ago that they will "occasionally allow their fighters to participate in K 1 and never sent their fighters to fight for violent events like MMA." Sanda fighters who fight in MMA are usually either retired or took some off time.
Just because the UFC is looking for them doesn't mean the Chinese Martial Association is going to negotiate. The CMA are the ones providing the training facilities, and their primary focus is the world sanda cups followed by their own sanctioned professional Sanda competitions. Kickboxing and MMA has never been their goal.

Like all other sports, state trained atheletes are the best in China. Most Chinese fighters who competed in MMA today are not state trained, but rather trained in private clubs. As of now, only Zhao Zilong is a highlevel Sanda fighter with a decent resume fighting in MMA seriously. However, he is still not elite and his best performance was winning king of Sanda 85kg + in 2002, in a weak division (the champion of this division lost to the lighter 75 kg Yuan Yuhao and Liu Hailong) and he got lucky KO (he was destroyed in the 2003 rematch), his best amateur win was only 3rd place in national competition in 2000 (he is usally placed in 5-12th in other tournaments).

Bao Ligao and Bateer competed in MMA, and they are undefeated, but they never took it seriously or tried a title shot. Bateer is a good example of someone who seriously wants to enter the UFC but the Chinese Martial Association just didn't give him the opportunity.

I personally believe if Aotegen Bateer gets a good training camp and hone his overall grappling for a year, he will easily be the best MMA fighter in China (if he isn't already). Salikhov Muslim is an example of an elite Sanda fighter going MMA, lets look at his career and see whether my theory stands.

Just a question for you: remember the old Chinese MMA league Art of Fighting? I recall there were A LOT of sanda guys fighting. Were they over-the-hill pro's too? Do you recall? Thanks!

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Just a question for you: remember the old Chinese MMA league Art of Fighting? I recall there were A LOT of sanda guys fighting. Were they over-the-hill pro's too? Do you recall? Thanks!

You mean the AOW FC? The first MMA organization in China. Yeah, there were lots of guys from Sanda background, a few like Wu Haotian even had Shuaijiao background (he was national 2nd place in 70 KG). But yes, none of them were high level Sanda except Bao Ligao.

Bao Ligao and Bateer are the only two elite Sanda fighters that participated in MMA in China. By elite, I mean actively fighting and winning Sanda cups while in MMA; Zhao Zilong never won a Sanda cup outside of a pro match, and has long retired.

Salikhov Muslim and Hussin Ojagi are the other two fighter outside of China who has. Ojagi only fought once (and lost from submission) so he didn't really take MMA even half seriously. Muslim is actually serious and was training with top level MMA fighters and wrestlers to prepare. Even Cung Le isn't really "elite" in terms of accomplishments because he only won two bronze in the world cups, and his best win was against a sick Nashun Gerile in 1999 (who was only 6th in China that year).


Also, I never understood why the new RUFF adopted unified rules, pride rules benefits Sanda fighters so much more than UFC rules.

 

[Harukaze]

You mean the AOW FC? The first MMA organization in China. Yeah, there were lots of guys from Sanda background, a few like Wu Haotian even had Shuaijiao background (he was national 2nd place in 70 KG). But yes, none of them were high level Sanda except Bao Ligao.

Bao Ligao and Bateer are the only two elite Sanda fighters that participated in MMA in China. By elite, I mean actively fighting and winning Sanda cups while in MMA; Zhao Zilong never won a Sanda cup outside of a pro match, and has long retired.

Salikhov Muslim and Hussin Ojagi are the other two fighter outside of China who has. Ojagi only fought once (and lost from submission) so he didn't really take MMA even half seriously. Muslim is actually serious and was training with top level MMA fighters and wrestlers to prepare. Even Cung Le isn't really "elite" in terms of accomplishments because he only won two bronze in the world cups, and his best win was against a sick Nashun Gerile in 1999 (who was only 6th in China that year).

Yeah, that's it! Good memory and good post, thanks for the info!

 

[Pem123]

i really enjoy sanda rules, i think the double leg and throw make it more interesting.


Can't wait to see elite strikers, fight in sanda rules with thinking that its going to be just another kickboxing rules.

and get outwrestled like Grappling dummy.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Can't wait to see elite strikers, fight in sanda rules with thinking that its going to be just another kickboxing rules.

and get outwrestled like Grappling dummy.

This happened in 2009, when Kaoklai decided to join the King of Kungfu Pro Sanda tournament. He had some takedown training, but was completely lost when Hossein Ojaghi just caught his kicks and dumped him over and over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjjBczbUBhk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrLd9QDPODI



Btw, I also found the video of Fang Bian vs Zhang Kaiyin

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzc5ODE1NTA4.html?from=y1.2-1-98.3.5-2.1-1-1-4

 

[SuperLuigi]

Salikhov Muslim and Hussin Ojagi are the other two fighter outside of China who has. Ojagi only fought once (and lost from submission) so he didn't really take MMA even half seriously. Muslim is actually serious and was training with top level MMA fighters and wrestlers to prepare. Even Cung Le isn't really "elite" in terms of accomplishments because he only won two bronze in the world cups, and his best win was against a sick Nashun Gerile in 1999 (who was only 6th in China that year).

There was also Bagazit Atayev, who won gold at heavyweight in the Sanda world championships. He fought in Pride and was on a long win streak against mid level guys until he got KO'd by Ubereem and retired shortly after.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

There was also Bagazit Atayev, who won gold at heavyweight in the Sanda world championships. He fought in Pride and was on a long win streak against mid level guys until he got KO'd by Ubereem and retired shortly after.

It seems he won gold in 1999, 2001, 2003, 2005, and 2013. But other than 1999, he usually fights at 90KG +, probably the shittiest division in Sanda where no one even fights. Heck the best Chinese Sanda fighters like Huang Lei and Bian Qingge only fight up to 90 kg. Pat Barry won silver in 2003 as well, same year, but again, divisions above 80 kg are just weak in the early 2000s. I mean Liu Hailong, Bao Ligao, and Yuan Yugao who only weighed 75-80 kg, defeated the 85 kg+ king of Sanda in no weight contest. The 90 kg guys never got the super king of Sanda ever (the champion of all the weight divisions) despite been heavier (China is weak in 85 kg + division until like around 2007). Today, its a bit different but the best Sanda fighters is still no heavier than 90 kg.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Wow, I didn't realize Bagazi Atayev actually defeated Cung Le in 1999 and Cung Le only got bronze. But Cung said that he ate an contaminated apple and suffered dysentery 10 days before the match.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Btw, one important thing to note. The highest level of Sanda competition and award for a Chinese figher is not the world cup. It's the Chinese national Olympics followed by the Asian Olympics.

The value and depth of Sanda competition can be generalized in the following order:

1) Chinese National Olympics (Over 5 million yuan, or some 850,000 usd of award, including housing etc.)
2) Asian Olympics (Almost as much award)
3) World Championship (20,000 yuan of award, or 3,400 usd as well as 20-30% raise in salary)
3) World Cup
4) National Championship (10,000-20,000 yuan, as well as 10-20% raise in salary)
5) National Champion competition


Pro Sanda CFC only gives an award of around 160,000-190,000 yuan for winners. But the highest winner of the tournament earns 1.5 million yuan. This is still inferior to what one gets in winning the national and Asian Olympics.

Wu Lingfeng and RUFF MMA pays roughly the same. The average Wulingfeng fighter gets paid around 30,000-50,000 yuan or 6,000-10,000 usd a fight (This is only comparable to what a second tier sanda fighter makes for a pro fight). Yilong gets at least over 100,000 yuan a fight or some 20,000 usd. The highest price Wu Lingfeng gave was probably over 2 million Yuan for winning a tournament (400,000 usd) which is higher than K 1 Max, while the highest RUFF gave to fighters for winning a tournament is 1 million.

Therefore MMA is probably the lowest paying of the pro-matches.


What's funny is that Yi Long is probably the highest paid fighter in China, even more than Fang Bian, who only earned 30,000 yuan (5,000 usd) for his fight against Simon Marcus (in fact Marcus got over 100,000 for that fight)!!!

Under the Chinese national sports system, there is no such thing as a division between a professional fighter and an amateur fighter. Under the state trained system, all fighters in China are professionals, in the sense that they are paid and fed by the state for "amateur" fights. Rather the distinction is between state sanctioned matches and business ones (so called pro matches made by private organizations we see in most capitalist countries) and the level of talent in the later is actually less (unlike boxing).

 

[CPH]

But Cung said that he ate an contaminated apple and suffered dysentery 10 days before the match.

LOL he suffered a Gevorg Patrosyan. It happens.

 

[Da Killa]

The same reason Chinese fighters don't fight Glory or K 1. Add to the fact that MMA is just not that popular.
You need to know a few things about Chinese sports administrations. Every fighter, or athelete for that matter in China is under the contract of the state, and in the case of Sanda, the Chinese Martial Association, which formally declared years ago that they will "occasionally allow their fighters to participate in K 1 and never sent their fighters to fight for violent events like MMA." Sanda fighters who fight in MMA are usually either retired or took some off time.
Just because the UFC is looking for them doesn't mean the Chinese Martial Association is going to negotiate. The CMA are the ones providing the training facilities, and their primary focus is the world sanda cups followed by their own sanctioned professional Sanda competitions. Kickboxing and MMA has never been their goal.

Like all other sports, state trained atheletes are the best in China. Most Chinese fighters who competed in MMA today are not state trained, but rather trained in private clubs. These guys have mediocre striking and also mediocre bjj, relying on the later against fighters with no experience on the ground (and hence they get murdered in the UFC). When the best full time MMA striker is Wang Guan, you know the best strikers in China hasn't fought in MMA or took it seriously (Wu Lingfeng and Sanda is much more popular). As of now, only Zhao Zilong is a highlevel Sanda fighter with a decent resume fighting in MMA seriously. However, he is still not elite and his best performance was winning king of Sanda 85kg + in 2002, in a weak division (the champion of this division lost to the lighter 75 kg Yuan Yuhao and Liu Hailong) and he got lucky KO (he was destroyed in the 2003 rematch), his best amateur win was only 3rd place in national competition in 2000 (he is usally placed in 5-12th in other tournaments). For Chinese fighters to do well in the UFC, it would be a striker with a good takedown defense (elite Sanda fighters with some basic bjj training), not a second tier grappler who focuses on submissions.

Bao Ligao and Bateer competed in MMA, and they are undefeated, but they never took it seriously or tried a title shot. Bateer is a good example of someone who seriously wants to enter the UFC but the Chinese Martial Association just didn't give him the opportunity.

I personally believe if Aotegen Bateer gets a good training camp and hone his overall grappling for a year, he will easily be the best MMA fighter in China (if he isn't already). Salikhov Muslim is an example of an elite Sanda fighter going MMA, lets look at his career and see whether my theory stands.

All the state interference is just one more reason I don't like Sanda.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

All the state interference is just one more reason I don't like Sanda.

On the other hand, it is thanks to state organizations, China can even compete competetively in the world combat sports scene. It was these trained atheletes and those early Sanda vs other style matches that drove many fans to take up combat sports and it was these atheletes that trained people in styles like Sanda and boxing.

I think elite Sanda fighters would have done really well in Pride rules. Pride rules is virtually just an extension of Sanda rules. Soccer kicks and stomps just flows smoothly with the Sanda takedowns (where one remain standing) and because of all the knees on the ground, Sanda guys can just be good wrestlers with some basic submission defense. I think Bao Ligao would have easily climbed to the elite Pride divisions when Pride was around. Bao Ligao had one of the best wrestlings in the 75 kg/+ division in China; training in Mongolian wrestling since a kid, and he virtually never got taken down (only Liu Hailong did it a few times through fast wrestling), he also had lots of Judo and submission training in the early days of AOW. His striking is also top notch and arguably better than Cung Le's (I think he has more power).

I never understood why these new MMA organizations like RUFF in China adopted unified UFC rules, they probably have no idea about MA; Pride rules suits Sanda fighters so much more.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Pride rules suits Sanda fighters so much more.

How so?

 

[heavenly kaghan]

How so?

Like I said, Sanda takedowns emphasize on standing on your feet while executing the takedown; such as kick catching, trips, and also clinch wrestling, which plays right into soccer kicks and stomps. These types of standing takedowns can also prevent themselves from getting submitted and because of kicks and knees to a downed opponent, they would have no worries executing many takedowns they would other wise be afraid to do because of wasting energy with no way to finish the opponent because they suck at submissions (like Cung Le). Sanda fighters also train to only have 2 seconds of wrestling, pride rules allow knees to the face of a downed opponent, which means elite free style guys would have much more trouble of prolonged wrestling attempts and double leg shoots, enough for Sanda fighters to stuff a good number, threaten them with knees, and and keep the fight standing.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Ya but guys that train lengthy takedowns and wrestling can also knee and kick you in the face while you're down, while also threaten with submission.

There is no shortcut to MMA, you have to know it all. Wouldn't make a difference with Pride rules...

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Ya but guys that train lengthy takedowns and wrestling can also knee and kick you in the face while you're down, while also threaten with submission.

There is no shortcut to MMA, you have to know it all. Wouldn't make a difference with Pride rules...

You can't know it all, you will always be weak at one area and there is always the opportunity cost in time to train what matters to you. Sanda guys will still have to train BJJ, but they don't need to be high level in it. They will be proficient in what they do best, and that is stand ups.

Kick catching and fast wrestling is a Sanda specialties, it isn't as effective in the UFC, but in pride, it can wreck damage with the stomps and kicks. Wrestlers can take you down, but then they will have to adapt to Sanda style wrestling too.

Lots of guys can do well in MMA without strong submissions, just look at Chuck Liddell, Gus, Rumbles, and Cung Le. You have to know basics, but you do not have to be top level in every field, its not needed or even possible. You can't deny that pride rules is much less favorable to submission artists.