MarcoRugeAss
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Choque - The official thread
- Thread starter RTD1
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Nothing unbelievable about it, has absolutely nothing to do with you either so please don't use it as an excuse.
No doubt I would, since you are in a higher weight category. For someone who I have a strength advantage though, that kind of throw would be a non-starter.
G
greenocelot
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delete*
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greenocelot
Guest
Hi guys, I have not read the entire thread so I am not sure if anyone introduced this, but I found this in another forum. It was translated by someone named borbotto. http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123572&page=20&p=2837560
I read on the web a story about Tanabe’s jiu-jitsu* school, which supposedly beat the Kodokan of early years in a tem match. Well, this is my version (Cesare Barioli)
From the book “The adventure of judo” from the series “Body Mind Heart” by A.I.S.E.
Tanabe, Kodokan’s problem
In 1886Yokoyama and Yamashita were hired by the Police Department as a result of Kodokan’s victory over Totsuka-ryu, but they found themselves isolated. With the purpose of encouraging greater harmony, a tournament among the instructors was organized In January ’91.
And Tobari from Kodokan was choked by Tanabe Matazaemon, from Fusen-ryu.
“About that I remember an episode in the years around 1891, concerning a match at the Metropolitan Police Headquarters, where the most prestigious names in the combat arts gathered from everywhere, among which some katame specialists. As a matter of fact, the experts from Kodokan were not uncomfortable dealing with nage, but they had considerable difficulties confronting the katame experts. Naturally this led us to strengthen our weak point, although with an incomplete result if, in another similar occurrence, although in Kyoto at the Butokukai headquarters, those of ours less used to katame experienced moments of suffering against the experts of that strategy. (Kano Jigoro, Shin-nihon-shin, 1926)
Tobari spent a year specializing in ne-waza, but the second tournament produced the same result: win by Tanabe, who dreamed of capitalizing on his sudden fame to gain prestige for jiu-jitsu, issuing an official challenge to Kodokan.
During one of these matches Isogai Hajime (who would later become a 10-dan, but at the time was only third) was choked in Kyoto in 1889 and realized that to become a complete judoist** knowledge of ne-waza was needed as well as throwing techniques; that is the beginning of the research on the ground carried out by the main judokas from the Kansai district, where the famous Sumitake Shimmen came from, who used to get a choke in while standing to then complete it one the ground and taught this tactic to Ushijima Koichi. At this point we must acknowledge that the Kodokan owes something to Tanabe, for the progress made in ne-waza after that.
It bears to say that Tobari had been a student of Inoue, like Yokoyama before he entered the Kodokan. So Tanabe, having met him twice in jiu-jitsu matches, knew him well and exploited his weak points.
Tanabe beat Tobari a third time, when the latter accepted his challenge at the Izumi Police office, in 1892. What occurred was that Tobari, having arrived at the designated place, found Kanaya from Kito-ryu, who had gone for the same reason. The arrival of the second challenger generated an argument and Tobari had a fisticuff with Kanaya, with the result that both came out beaten and worn out.
Later the first match was fought by Tanabe and Tobari. The latter, shaken by the anger from the previous occurrence, was subjected to tomoe-nage and the choke that jiu-jitsu calls ebi-jime (lobster’s pincer) and judo gyaku-juji-jime (reverse-hand cross choke).
After four secondary matches Kanaya and Tanabe fought too, but after 30’ the referee declared hikiwake (tie); and while the first demanded extra time, the latter yelled “We continue then” and threw him with a leg sweep, while the referees were laughing convulsedly.
In Kodokan judo, only 30% of training takes place in ne-waza, on the ground, and 79% in tachi-waza, standing, moreover the refereeing rules tend to penalize the first. In the beginning of the Taisho era (1912) victory on the ground was considered incomplete, as the Shihan had stated that it would not allow to face multiple opponents.
Old jiu-jutsu, on the other hand, used to get the holds to complete them on the ground; and Yokoyama Sakujiro was famous for tying a 55’ match with jiu-jutsuka Murai; but we know that Yokoyama had practiced a lot of jiu-jutsu.
Therefore in ground fighting, which is the final stage of real combat, early Judo was inferior to Jiu-jitsu, to the point that Tanabe stated there was no need to fear Kodokan. However, in 1898, in the Osaka dojo, he was defeated, thrown on his head by Kimotsuki from Kodokan (though he had his payback the following day, by sitting on the ground after the initial greeting, to refuse to fight standing in the first place).
Since as a result Kimotsuki wanted to learn ne-waza, Tanabe stayed in Osaka for ten days expressly to teach him.
A famous match was held, in 1898 as well, between Tanabe and Hirooka, a jujutsuka who had moved to the Kodokan. The bout took place during the Budo Championships in Kyoto in the presence of the Heir Prince and owes its fame to the subsequent prohibition of leg locks: because Tanabe applied one on his opponent to drag him on the ground and wounded him.
The rebirth of jiu-jitsu was slower than that of gekiken; let’s say it was the last to find its place in the new Society.
In the news section of a newspaper of May 19 ’86, a year after Mishima’s arrival, we read: -There is a school at the Prefecture of Police that practices sixteen control holds from several jiu-jutsu schools. The purpose is to make the officers more effective.- Clearly practice was selected in view of professional application. Maybe from those experiences Rentai-ho-no-kata, which is still practiced today and includes the techniques to arrest and immobilize a criminal, was born. Anyway in the meantime some masters found a job as instructors for officers.
We have to acknowledge that the first bouts between judo and jiu-jitsu are shrouded in legend and those who had the luck to witness them cannot agree on the dates, the places, not even the results. But the Great Prefecture Demonstration could have not taken place when Oseko Sadakyo was still Prefect, since he is not mentioned in the documents of the Kodokan. Even the hypothesis that it took place at Yoko-yan is to be discarded, because the hall was built in 1887. If the reform issued by Mishima recommended to improve the physical capabilities of the Police, the match must have had the purpose to formulate adequate programs.
The witnesses of the time did not give the event the importance that it later acquired. The community did not assign a particular meaning to the victory of Kodokan, it simply became aware that –A new school had defeated the others-. Among the events of that troubled era it was not meaningful.
In 1895, after Japan’s victory over China, Yamashita went to Kyushu with a few companions and defeated the opponents who wished to confront them. In 1999* Hisogai Hajime, having become an instructor at the Kyoto Budo-senmon-gakko (Bu-sen), showed his abilities against the local jiu-jutsuka. These events contributed to gain prestige for the new school and its champions; Saigo, Tomita, Yamashita and Yokoyama became famous; but without their renown no one would remember their opponents: Nakamura Hansuke, Terushima Taro, Kochi Entaro…
I read on the web a story about Tanabe’s jiu-jitsu* school, which supposedly beat the Kodokan of early years in a tem match. Well, this is my version (Cesare Barioli)
From the book “The adventure of judo” from the series “Body Mind Heart” by A.I.S.E.
Tanabe, Kodokan’s problem
In 1886Yokoyama and Yamashita were hired by the Police Department as a result of Kodokan’s victory over Totsuka-ryu, but they found themselves isolated. With the purpose of encouraging greater harmony, a tournament among the instructors was organized In January ’91.
And Tobari from Kodokan was choked by Tanabe Matazaemon, from Fusen-ryu.
“About that I remember an episode in the years around 1891, concerning a match at the Metropolitan Police Headquarters, where the most prestigious names in the combat arts gathered from everywhere, among which some katame specialists. As a matter of fact, the experts from Kodokan were not uncomfortable dealing with nage, but they had considerable difficulties confronting the katame experts. Naturally this led us to strengthen our weak point, although with an incomplete result if, in another similar occurrence, although in Kyoto at the Butokukai headquarters, those of ours less used to katame experienced moments of suffering against the experts of that strategy. (Kano Jigoro, Shin-nihon-shin, 1926)
Tobari spent a year specializing in ne-waza, but the second tournament produced the same result: win by Tanabe, who dreamed of capitalizing on his sudden fame to gain prestige for jiu-jitsu, issuing an official challenge to Kodokan.
During one of these matches Isogai Hajime (who would later become a 10-dan, but at the time was only third) was choked in Kyoto in 1889 and realized that to become a complete judoist** knowledge of ne-waza was needed as well as throwing techniques; that is the beginning of the research on the ground carried out by the main judokas from the Kansai district, where the famous Sumitake Shimmen came from, who used to get a choke in while standing to then complete it one the ground and taught this tactic to Ushijima Koichi. At this point we must acknowledge that the Kodokan owes something to Tanabe, for the progress made in ne-waza after that.
It bears to say that Tobari had been a student of Inoue, like Yokoyama before he entered the Kodokan. So Tanabe, having met him twice in jiu-jitsu matches, knew him well and exploited his weak points.
Tanabe beat Tobari a third time, when the latter accepted his challenge at the Izumi Police office, in 1892. What occurred was that Tobari, having arrived at the designated place, found Kanaya from Kito-ryu, who had gone for the same reason. The arrival of the second challenger generated an argument and Tobari had a fisticuff with Kanaya, with the result that both came out beaten and worn out.
Later the first match was fought by Tanabe and Tobari. The latter, shaken by the anger from the previous occurrence, was subjected to tomoe-nage and the choke that jiu-jitsu calls ebi-jime (lobster’s pincer) and judo gyaku-juji-jime (reverse-hand cross choke).
After four secondary matches Kanaya and Tanabe fought too, but after 30’ the referee declared hikiwake (tie); and while the first demanded extra time, the latter yelled “We continue then” and threw him with a leg sweep, while the referees were laughing convulsedly.
In Kodokan judo, only 30% of training takes place in ne-waza, on the ground, and 79% in tachi-waza, standing, moreover the refereeing rules tend to penalize the first. In the beginning of the Taisho era (1912) victory on the ground was considered incomplete, as the Shihan had stated that it would not allow to face multiple opponents.
Old jiu-jutsu, on the other hand, used to get the holds to complete them on the ground; and Yokoyama Sakujiro was famous for tying a 55’ match with jiu-jutsuka Murai; but we know that Yokoyama had practiced a lot of jiu-jutsu.
Therefore in ground fighting, which is the final stage of real combat, early Judo was inferior to Jiu-jitsu, to the point that Tanabe stated there was no need to fear Kodokan. However, in 1898, in the Osaka dojo, he was defeated, thrown on his head by Kimotsuki from Kodokan (though he had his payback the following day, by sitting on the ground after the initial greeting, to refuse to fight standing in the first place).
Since as a result Kimotsuki wanted to learn ne-waza, Tanabe stayed in Osaka for ten days expressly to teach him.
A famous match was held, in 1898 as well, between Tanabe and Hirooka, a jujutsuka who had moved to the Kodokan. The bout took place during the Budo Championships in Kyoto in the presence of the Heir Prince and owes its fame to the subsequent prohibition of leg locks: because Tanabe applied one on his opponent to drag him on the ground and wounded him.
The rebirth of jiu-jitsu was slower than that of gekiken; let’s say it was the last to find its place in the new Society.
In the news section of a newspaper of May 19 ’86, a year after Mishima’s arrival, we read: -There is a school at the Prefecture of Police that practices sixteen control holds from several jiu-jutsu schools. The purpose is to make the officers more effective.- Clearly practice was selected in view of professional application. Maybe from those experiences Rentai-ho-no-kata, which is still practiced today and includes the techniques to arrest and immobilize a criminal, was born. Anyway in the meantime some masters found a job as instructors for officers.
We have to acknowledge that the first bouts between judo and jiu-jitsu are shrouded in legend and those who had the luck to witness them cannot agree on the dates, the places, not even the results. But the Great Prefecture Demonstration could have not taken place when Oseko Sadakyo was still Prefect, since he is not mentioned in the documents of the Kodokan. Even the hypothesis that it took place at Yoko-yan is to be discarded, because the hall was built in 1887. If the reform issued by Mishima recommended to improve the physical capabilities of the Police, the match must have had the purpose to formulate adequate programs.
The witnesses of the time did not give the event the importance that it later acquired. The community did not assign a particular meaning to the victory of Kodokan, it simply became aware that –A new school had defeated the others-. Among the events of that troubled era it was not meaningful.
In 1895, after Japan’s victory over China, Yamashita went to Kyushu with a few companions and defeated the opponents who wished to confront them. In 1999* Hisogai Hajime, having become an instructor at the Kyoto Budo-senmon-gakko (Bu-sen), showed his abilities against the local jiu-jutsuka. These events contributed to gain prestige for the new school and its champions; Saigo, Tomita, Yamashita and Yokoyama became famous; but without their renown no one would remember their opponents: Nakamura Hansuke, Terushima Taro, Kochi Entaro…
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So all the jujitsu schools like kito Ryu, Danzan, and the like, which in moderns times is considered mcdojo because they just do forms, and only practice on compliant training partners, and is mostly artsy fartsy unrealistic moves, once had hard sparring?
G
greenocelot
Guest
Hi RTD1, I found it a forum, but I will do some reserach and get back to you by tomorrow.
G
greenocelot
Guest
I think it is by someone named Cesare Barioli and called “L’avventura del judo” collana “Corpo Mente Cuore”.
I don't speak Italian, but here is a link to the profile of the guy who translated it, he might be able to help you further; I am very sorry that I can't. http://www.bullshido.net/forums/member.php?u=163028
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Cesare Barioli, a pioneer of Judo in Italy...
http://www.ibs.it/code/9788876963681/barioli-cesare/avventura-del-judo.html
I'm seeing a lot of people wearing "Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Established 1925." shirts. What is the significance of this date?
From BJJheroes.com:
This must be in error. Per Choque, Donato Pires established the Academia Jiu Jitsu at "Rua Marques de Abrantes n.106 in the Flamengo Beach area" on September 6, 1930. The Gracies did not hijack it and turn it into Academia Gracie until late 1932.
The legendary account of Helio teaching the bank executive, Mario Brandt, who showed up one day when Carlos was running late (remember, Helio never trained until this point, only observed Carlos) supposedly occurred when Helio was 16, so this would have put it sometime between October 1, 1929 and September 30, 1930. Given the above, it's more likely it was towards the end of that one year period.
If we work backwards, the first mention of Carlos Gracie in the papers was regarding his "demonstration" with Geo Omori in March 1929.
Then going back to the beginning, we have Carlos Gracie's supposed tutelage under Maeda (of which there is no evidence, and if anything it was under Maeda's student Jacyntho Ferra) during some period between 1917-1920.
So what is the significance of the 1925 date?
From BJJheroes.com:
This must be in error. Per Choque, Donato Pires established the Academia Jiu Jitsu at "Rua Marques de Abrantes n.106 in the Flamengo Beach area" on September 6, 1930. The Gracies did not hijack it and turn it into Academia Gracie until late 1932.
The legendary account of Helio teaching the bank executive, Mario Brandt, who showed up one day when Carlos was running late (remember, Helio never trained until this point, only observed Carlos) supposedly occurred when Helio was 16, so this would have put it sometime between October 1, 1929 and September 30, 1930. Given the above, it's more likely it was towards the end of that one year period.
If we work backwards, the first mention of Carlos Gracie in the papers was regarding his "demonstration" with Geo Omori in March 1929.
Then going back to the beginning, we have Carlos Gracie's supposed tutelage under Maeda (of which there is no evidence, and if anything it was under Maeda's student Jacyntho Ferra) during some period between 1917-1920.
So what is the significance of the 1925 date?
Last edited:
Nevermind, I found it. It comes from Reila Gracie, and she's clearly mistaken.
http://web.archive.org/web/20130508181023/http://www.ibjjf.org/mentor.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20130508181023/http://www.ibjjf.org/mentor.htm
Looks like Volume 2 is out now. I just bought it for my Kindle. Oddly, it only covers 1950-1960. I guess there's going to be a Choque 3 at some point that covers 1961 - 1996 (since Jiu Jitsu In The South Zone picks up in 1997)?
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I'd like to recommend this book, Old School 2nd Edition by Ellis Amdur.
He's a student of Ko-ryu. His 2nd edition of Old School covers jiujitsu.
The Table Of Contents are here:
http://www.edgework.info/documents/OldSchoolToC.pdf
He has a chapter on Yoshin ryu - a jiujitsu tradition. Ellis actually
likes BJJ and I think he encouraged his sons to practice capoeira and BJJ.
He puts alot of the history of jiujitsu into context.
The book is available for purchase here:
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/oldschool.aspx
Choque vol 1 and 2 can be try but definitely puts jiujitsu, Judo, Luta Livre, Catch Can, and grappling and vale tudo contests into context. In the youtube clip of Carlson and Santana fighting, I thought Carlson used open hands strikers to prevent breaking his hands but according to the Choque author in Vol 2, he notes that some fights prohibited closed-fist strikes but palm strikers were allowed based on negotiated rules for a fight.
He's a student of Ko-ryu. His 2nd edition of Old School covers jiujitsu.
The Table Of Contents are here:
http://www.edgework.info/documents/OldSchoolToC.pdf
He has a chapter on Yoshin ryu - a jiujitsu tradition. Ellis actually
likes BJJ and I think he encouraged his sons to practice capoeira and BJJ.
He puts alot of the history of jiujitsu into context.
The book is available for purchase here:
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/oldschool.aspx
Choque vol 1 and 2 can be try but definitely puts jiujitsu, Judo, Luta Livre, Catch Can, and grappling and vale tudo contests into context. In the youtube clip of Carlson and Santana fighting, I thought Carlson used open hands strikers to prevent breaking his hands but according to the Choque author in Vol 2, he notes that some fights prohibited closed-fist strikes but palm strikers were allowed based on negotiated rules for a fight.
Kano -> Maeda -> (Ferro / Pires) -> Carlos -> Helio
Tanabe would be parallel to Kano, it was his victories against the Kodokan guys at the Tokyo PD that led to the expansion of Ne Waza in judo.
Geo Omori would be sort of parallel to Maeda in Brazil.
Anyway, I'm most of the way through Volume 2 now, I'm in the 1959 chapter.
So far not as interesting as Volume 1. Probably because it covers 11 years vs over 100 years, and also because it's not as "new" having read Vol 1 already.
The key themes are:
- Helio gets his ass kicked by Kimura and then again by Santana and retires.
- The rise of Carlson Gracie. You can tell Helio and Carlos are pretty much done at this point, it's all Carlson and to a much lesser extent, Robson. Carlson fights Santana like 7 or so times.
- Waldemar Santana and Takeo Yano are key players during this time.
- Fadda gets mentioned quite a bit.
- Kimura comes back at the end, fights Sanatana twice, beating him the first time and drawing the second.
- Judo is getting huge in Brazil and a lot of the old jiu jitsu guys are converting to judo.
So far not as interesting as Volume 1. Probably because it covers 11 years vs over 100 years, and also because it's not as "new" having read Vol 1 already.
The key themes are:
- Helio gets his ass kicked by Kimura and then again by Santana and retires.
- The rise of Carlson Gracie. You can tell Helio and Carlos are pretty much done at this point, it's all Carlson and to a much lesser extent, Robson. Carlson fights Santana like 7 or so times.
- Waldemar Santana and Takeo Yano are key players during this time.
- Fadda gets mentioned quite a bit.
- Kimura comes back at the end, fights Sanatana twice, beating him the first time and drawing the second.
- Judo is getting huge in Brazil and a lot of the old jiu jitsu guys are converting to judo.
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That's what I meant but didn't really convey it very well thanks. Half way through choque vol 1 myself at the min, but finding I have to do it small pieces.
I finished reading it this morning. The Epilog speaks of 1950-1960 as being the golden years of BJJ, with a decline and rebirth to come. Volume 3 will cover 1961-1999.
Some random shit I picked up from Volume 2:
- Apparently there were other belt systems in use in BJJ before the old white/light blue/dark blue. A white/red/brown/black system was being used by some during the 1950's.
- Helio believed that judo was fake jiu jitsu created by the Japanese to trick foreigners and hide the real art from the non-Japanese.
- The Gracies came up with a point system during the 1950's but later abandoned it. 1 point for a throw/takedown, 1 point for maintaining a dominant position for 1 minute, after which the fighters would be separated and restarted. That was it.
- The Gracies recruited a lot of random big tough street fighters to use as academy "representatives" after teaching them some rudimentary jiu jitsu. If they lost a fight or got injured in training, they got kicked out of the academy. The Gracies kept the vast majority of the entrance fees and purses, the fighters got hardly anything.
Some random shit I picked up from Volume 2:
- Apparently there were other belt systems in use in BJJ before the old white/light blue/dark blue. A white/red/brown/black system was being used by some during the 1950's.
- Helio believed that judo was fake jiu jitsu created by the Japanese to trick foreigners and hide the real art from the non-Japanese.
- The Gracies came up with a point system during the 1950's but later abandoned it. 1 point for a throw/takedown, 1 point for maintaining a dominant position for 1 minute, after which the fighters would be separated and restarted. That was it.
- The Gracies recruited a lot of random big tough street fighters to use as academy "representatives" after teaching them some rudimentary jiu jitsu. If they lost a fight or got injured in training, they got kicked out of the academy. The Gracies kept the vast majority of the entrance fees and purses, the fighters got hardly anything.
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