Crime BREAKING: Orlando Gay Night-Club Attacked (50 Dead, 50+ Hospitalized) Pt. 3

[TheComebackKid]

Here you are again focusing on this one issue.

Christianity has been anti gay forever ....is not just marriage...they literally think gays are repulsive, a disgrace.

They been spreading this way of thinking for centuries, only until recently have they tone it down, I'm guessing because the internet doesn't forget.

What if you I were to say homosexuality and mass murder are repulsive and a disgrace? Am I still laying the ground for gay slaughter?

So if you are not attracted or have sex with anything...that means your gay since you arnt hetero, according to ur genius logic?

That would make them non-sexual altogether. But if you are sexual then there are only two groups: hetero and gay.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I'm sure both had mental issues, and I think that's relevant to the discussion. I think all things are relevant to the discussion: who he was, his mental illness history, his inspirations, etc. I do bristle when people on the left want to completely overlook the link to Islam or pretend it's offensive to even suggest such a thing, so I've spent a lot of time attacking that viewpoint the past few threads.

True. I don't think there's a 1:1 ratio between religiosity and risk of radicalization. However I don't say that to absolve the religion because the ideology that attracts and inspires these individuals clearly has multiple roots within the Islamic tradition(13th century Salafism, 18th century Wahhabism, 20th century Islamism) and its precisely its claim to be the true form of Islam that makes it legitimate in the eyes of its recruits. So denying the connection the way the likes of Dahlia Mogahed do is counter-productive obscurantism, plain and simple.

 

[Thames]

No its not. There's no due process involved in getting put on a watch list. Owning a firearm is a protected right in this country but more importantly so is freedom of speech and religion. If we're going to start restricting people's rights without due process where is this going to end? Are we going to empower the federal government to be able to search the homes of terror suspects without a warrant just because they got flagged and put on a watch list? Are we going to take away their right to a fair and speedy trial and have them tried in military courts because they're terror suspects?

We live in a free society of over 300 million people. We're completely delusional if we think we can create a society where terrorism is impossible. Maybe we should stop infringing on the rights of citizens and ask why the US is allied with multiple countries that export terrorism instead but I guess that might lead to a little scrutiny of the foreign donors to the Clinton Foundation and Obama can't exactly have that before November.

Good point.
I'm usually a staunch defender of rule of law, and I can respect that you are even more so than me.

I personally believe that the only way to combat domestic terrorism, is with the use of intelligence services. It certainly has to walk on a very thin line, with regards to rule of law and fundamental freedom principles.
But in an age where so many innocent lives can be taken in a matter of minutes, simply by the way of one deranged lunatic. You have to ask yourself, if adhering to these principles word by word, is actually the rational approach?

I know Benjamin Franklin quotes is about to me send my way. And I can completely understand where those sentiments are coming from.
I'm just on the fence on the issue. If the intelligence services know that a guy is e.g. a ISIS sympathizers, perhaps its even known that he has expressed willingness to commit terrorist acts, and you see him go to a gun store to pick up an AR-15.
Then what is the correct course of action to you?

Btw this is the Obama clip I was talking about:

 

[goldennirvana]

As if you can believe ANYTHING the news reports.

 

[in the]

True. I don't think there's a 1:1 ratio between religiosity and risk of radicalization. However I don't say that to absolve the religion because the ideology that attracts and inspires these individuals clearly has multiple roots within the Islamic tradition(13th century Salafism, 18th century Wahhabism, 20th century Islamism) and its precisely its claim to be the true form of Islam that makes it legitimate in the eyes of its recruits. So denying the connection the way the likes of Dahlia Mogahed do is counter-productive obscurantism, plain and simple.

I don't know how many "but Christianity!" arguments I've had over the past few days, even from Christians. What a bunch of self-loathing individuals. Anyway, the guy made sure he was doing this for jihad, serving ISIS, so it's a blatant lie for some people to say it had "nothing to do with Islam." Of course, Islam isn't the only talking point, but it should be at the front in my personal opinion. I don't think this happens if he is Amish, but that's just me. Then the talking point is more about the specificity within the religion, which you posted. But we can't even get to that point in the discussion with many (if not most) people because they just want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend the problem doesn't exist. That's the wrong approach because it quells the discussion from going forward to the next point: that not all Muslims are to blame, but we have to be honest about the sects and the textual doctrine within the religion.

It's frustrating. I'm rambling at this point, but the past few days should open the eyes to a lot of people who now see the utter defense that some people on the left have for an ideology that is playing them like fools (do you really think CAIR gives two shits about intersectionalism and critical race theory? They are only talking about "systems of oppression" to pull the veil over the gullible).

 

[in the]

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Nope but Christianity is partly to blame for this as well since they encourage policy that is pro Israel no matter what on hope that things will escalate to bring the apocalypse.

Why don't you blame anti-finance leftists for 9/11? Do you blame critics of police corruption/brutality when cops are murdered? Why or why not?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Good point.
I'm usually a staunch defender of rule of law, and I can respect that you are even more so than me.

I personally believe that the only way to combat domestic terrorism, is with the use of intelligence services. It certainly has to walk on a very thin line, with regards to rule of law and fundamental freedom principles.
But in an age where so many innocent lives can be taken in a matter of minutes, simply by the way of one deranged lunatic. You have to ask yourself, if adhering to these principles word by word, is actually the rational approach?

I know Benjamin Franklin quotes is about to me send my way. And I can completely understand where those sentiments are coming from.
I'm just on the fence on the issue. If the intelligence services know that a guy is e.g. a ISIS sympathizers, perhaps its even known that he has expressed willingness to commit terrorist acts, and you see him go to a gun store to pick up an AR-15.
Then what is the correct course of action to you?

Btw this is the Obama clip I was talking about:

We'll never be able to stop all terrorist attacks which means we have to accept a certain level of risk at some point and in my mind we're pretty much at that point if not past it years ago.

I agree that the intelligence community is at the forefront of this fight but that doesn't mean we should empower them more and more in a fit of anger and sadness every time an attack like this occurs. IMO they're powerful enough already and 9/11 excluded I believe the US has a better track record than many Western European countries. Our Muslims are better assimilated and our intelligence services cooperate better than the agencies of the various EU countries as evidenced by the Paris and Brussels attacks.

Inciting violence or making overt, specific threats are not protected by the 1st amendment. To be fair to cross that line is rather difficult in the US but if a person does then charge them and now you can work to take their rights away in a court of law.

Beyond that my view is one that would definitely not get me elected if I was running for president; the executive is far too powerful as is. In my mind there's a lot we can do but not a lot, if anything, we should do because it would involve further infringement on our rights.

Really, the terrorism we're facing is horrible and tragic but its not en existential threat. The fear right after 9/11 is that a terrorist organization might obtain a WMD of some sort and attack a major US city. But to me that seems increasingly unlikely because such an attack would be such a monumental logistical challenge for a terrorist cell that our intelligence community would more than likely catch wind of it before it happened. Which is not to say its possible but rather it seems terrorists are increasingly moving towards using small arms and makeshift bombs and organizing around smaller cells or radicalizing lone wolves. Its scary but its not an existential threat, not even close.

If we as US citizens are going to brag about being free to the rest of the world we should probably not beg for a police state on our knees. Unfortunately protection of the Bill of Rights seems to be done only partially by either side. The conservatives seem more willing to restrict the rights of Muslims and to restrict free speech to crackdown on radicalism while vigorously defending the 2nd amendment. What's the point in saying the 2nd amendment is there to protect the rest if you give up the rest of the Bill of Rights to keep the 2nd?

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Here you are again focusing on this one issue.

Christianity has been anti gay forever ....is not just marriage...they literally think gays are repulsive, a disgrace.

They been spreading this way of thinking for centuries, only until recently have they tone it down, I'm guessing because the internet doesn't forget.


So if you are not attracted or have sex with anything...that means your gay since you arnt hetero, according to ur genius logic?

Homosexuality is an abomination. People shouldn't not condemn bad behaviors just because some people who oppose those behaviors commit violent acts against participants of those behaviors.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I don't know how many "but Christianity!" arguments I've had over the past few days, even from Christians. What a bunch of self-loathing individuals. Anyway, the guy made sure he was doing this for jihad, serving ISIS, so it's a blatant lie for some people to say it had "nothing to do with Islam." Of course, Islam isn't the only talking point, but it should be at the front in my personal opinion. I don't think this happens if he is Amish, but that's just me. Then the talking point is more about the specificity within the religion, which you posted. But we can't even get to that point in the discussion with many (if not most) people because they just want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend the problem doesn't exist. That's the wrong approach because it quells the discussion from going forward to the next point: that not all Muslims are to blame, but we have to be honest about the sects and the textual doctrine within the religion.

It's frustrating. I'm rambling at this point, but the past few days should open the eyes to a lot of people who now see the utter defense that some people on the left have for an ideology that is playing them like fools (do you really think CAIR gives two shits about intersectionalism and critical race theory? They are only talking about "systems of oppression" to pull the veil over the gullible).

On my social media the past few days the only person who has made the point that homophobia is far too common in the Muslim community and partially to blame for this is a Muslim while all the non-Muslims are playing apologist. Its like I'm in an episode of the Twilight Zone or something.

 

[xcvbn]

Have a feeling the police took out a decent amount of patrons...it's a fucking night club- 300 people couldn't bum rush 1 dude with a rifle? Full on bystander effect or what?

And his ties to Islam and ISIS are highly fucking questionable.

Careful what you watch and read on this one. MSM and every politician has been very quick to have figured this thing out and will stick with their stories no matter what else comes out.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

A Balkans style conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe is now inevitable. Infact it has already started, it's just that the violence is only one way at the moment and Europeans haven't started defended themselves......YET.

I don't think so.

But hey who knows when Germany allowed more than a million Muslims within its borders last year, knowing that a good part will have to leave.

Guess what happens when these 20 year olds from tribal areas are told that they need to fuck off.....They say fuck you come get me. And hide. And loot because they don't get help from the state anymore.

So maybe Balkan style shit isn't that crazy actually.

 

[in the]

Amazing how having the balls to address issues can gain you an audience. The Democrats should take notice.

 

[in the]

On my social media the past few days the only person who has made the point that homophobia is far too common in the Muslim community and partially to blame for this is a Muslim while all the non-Muslims are playing apologist. Its like I'm in an episode of the Twilight Zone or something.

My gay friends and liberal Christian friends are trying to spin this on a consortium of gun control, homophobia (which I agree here), and Islamophobia, and to the shame of their faith, many of my liberal Christian friends keep bringing up the past when it comes to the church's treatment of gays or the present, how Brazil (a predominantly Christian nation) has the highest number of murders for the LGBT community, and thus Christianity is to blame. I'm trying not to lose my head over it (or just being an asshole like I can be on this forum) and replying rationally. Amazing, a Muslim kills dozens of gay people, and some Christians themselves want to spin those real-life deaths into a debate on Christianity. Cuckstianity?

 

[in the]

Have a feeling the police took out a decent amount of patrons...it's a fucking night club- 300 people couldn't bum rush 1 dude with a rifle? Full on bystander effect or what?

And his ties to Islam and ISIS are highly fucking questionable.

Careful what you watch and read on this one. MSM and every politician has been very quick to have figured this thing out and will stick with their stories no matter what else comes out.

I haven't seen any conclusive evidence so far that he had ties to ISIS, only that he was inspired by their call to make June/Ramadan a time for killing Americans and Europeans. But who knows, a lot of what we think we know will change over time.

 

[nostradumbass]

Dan Patrick didnt tweeted "Reap what they sow" the hate and the general mood against gays is set up by most religions.

Here in Mexico one bureacrat from the most catholic state tweeted "Im deeply sad that 50 died... it should had been 100", so no, fuck all religions attacking gay people because of their condition.

The difference is that others are willing to call out dumbasses who say shit like that. Violence against anybody for no reason isn't acceptable in any church or town I've ever been to. I'm no Christian, but I have been to more than a few churches, and there are very few fire and brimstone churches around anymore. There's Westboro, but most of them seem to focus on the "Jesus loves everybody", singing a few songs.

 

[SammyPops]

westernise them, big macs, baseball, and cold beer

 

[in the]

I'd love for a competitor to Facebook to rise up the ranks.
Facebook Doubles Down: BANS Pamela Geller For Criticizing Islam

 

[TheGreatA]

I suppose this will go down as an internal problem within the gay community. They need to figure out how to accommodate their Muslim brothers. The LGBT crew has some soul-searching to do in this regard.

 

[KnightTemplar]

The worry is that things like this tend to now precede a major terror attack. In the month before the Charlie Hebdo shooting and just before the Paris massacre there were smaller, probe attacks, possibly to draw away security forces and with ISIS promoising to target the European Championship currently being held in France then we should fear the worst.

And this attack was only 55 miles from Paris. The attacker had already spent time in jail for terrorist related offences.