RICKSON GRACIE (The FUTURE of Jiu-Jitsu, ENDORSES Ryron & Rener's Curriculum, Gracie University)

[deadlizard]

I don't disagree with what they did and how they shook up the MA world.

But the art has progressed and grown into something that they're no longer the "authority" on the subject. Rorion realized this and grabbed on to the accomplishments of prior champions as a way to prove their "unique" approach works.

How would you feel if the techniques to promote the SD aspect of BJJ was taught by a non-Gracie affiliated school? And they claim that their SD curriculum is better and is the "true" self defense application of jiu jitsu? In addition, they claimed that GJJ is not realistic and is a false form of the jiu jitsu taught in Japan? In addition, they have a cult like following with five thousand students?

Some its marketing of course, you can't denied that Gracie's did and unique approach to fighting, where they the only ones in the world putting up strategies to fight on the ground? Probably not but at that time, they were the ones with most success or marketing it the best.

Gjj is nothjng more than a approach to fighting..it his however a ma foucus on fighting

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I don't disagree with what they did and how they shook up the MA world.

But the art has progressed and grown into something that they're no longer the "authority" on the subject. Rorion realized this and grabbed on to the accomplishments of prior champions as a way to prove their "unique" approach works.

How would you feel if the techniques to promote the SD aspect of BJJ was taught by a non-Gracie affiliated school? And they claim that their SD curriculum is better and is the "true" self defense application of jiu jitsu? In addition, they claimed that GJJ is not realistic and is a false form of the jiu jitsu taught in Japan? In addition, they have a cult like following with five thousand students?

well, the thing is there is no other SD curriculum in bjj outside the ones the gracies teach, the other type involves mma. I think they market specifically the Gracie SD curriculum, which in my opinion, is quite solid. GJJ is a fighting art, there might be others, they did however put ther SD system on the line via vale tudo fights and the latter UFC.

Bjj however as you said has evolved, and many places do not really embrace the GJJ fighting style. Lots of bjj academies are purely sportive, and some have MMA as an option for fighting, neither is wrong, and I disagree tht sport bjj does not get you ready for a fighting scenario, nevertheless, it certaly lacks on several sd aspects, if you are in a sport bjj academy and never happen to train for mma, you might have a hard awakening once you are on the ground and someone pounding your face.

I started in pure sportive academy, which does zero nothing but sport bjj. Once I started training for mma, I realzed its a whole different thing, I couldnt close the distance etc. I watched the combatives dvd and they gave me a very easy approach to it, aslo fighting of your back, the punch block series is very good easy to understand too, since they Ive been incorporating combatives into my classes to new guys (no I did not take the onli course nor I paid a penny for the dvd) I soundly do not agree when people tell me tht I shouldnt be dooing SD or rolling with strikes that if they want to learn tht they should join an mma gym, I believe you can learn how to fight in a bjj class, hell YOU MUST learn how to fight in a bjj class, the combatives course makes it so much easy to tech the techniques in a fighting scenario.

I sound like a Gracie zombie, I know, but im not, not even close, I just like their material.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Gracie Combatives IS Gracie Jiujitsu self defense. All through combatives, regardless of the position, being safe and minimizing risk of getting punched is #1 priority. Standing, body lock, rear body lock, bottom side mount, and most of all from the guard. Not a single gi reliant technique or weapon defense is taught in Combatives. When Rener and Ryron are talking self defense, this is what they mean; being punch safe from EVERY position if possible.

I've been to and trained with plenty of friends from typical BJJ gyms and none had ever had anyone talk to them about being punched from bottom side mount, guard, bottom mount etc.

 

[JoelThomas]

I've been to and trained with plenty of friends from typical BJJ gyms and none had ever had anyone talk to them about being punched from bottom side mount, guard, bottom mount etc.

I consider it this way. The odds of any blue belt and up "sport" only bjj player *not* being able to intuitively stop punches, reverse position, and escape/end a street fight against an untrained and unarmed opponent is exactly zero. There are no magic punch stopping moves. They're painfully obvious for anyone who has a reasonable amount of experience grappling.

Similarly, the odds of anyone getting into a street fight (that they couldn't avoid) with an untrained, unarmed opponent in a scenario that can only be won with the use of "Gracie Combatives" self-defense techniques is practically zero. And any Gracie Breakdown video they peddle as reinforcing the validity of their techniques could be met with a hundred morbid realities of people getting sucker punched, stomped, stabbed, shot, and then robbed for nothing other than bad luck and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Basically, people are buying a fairy tale. Which makes sense at this point, because Rickson, obviously.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

I consider it this way. The odds of any blue belt and up "sport" only bjj player *not* being able to intuitively stop punches, reverse position, and escape/end a street fight against an untrained and unarmed opponent is exactly zero. There are no magic punch stopping moves. They're painfully obvious for anyone who has a reasonable amount of experience grappling.

Similarly, the odds of anyone getting into a street fight (that they couldn't avoid) with an untrained, unarmed opponent in a scenario that can only be won with the use of "Gracie Combatives" self-defense techniques is practically zero. And any Gracie Breakdown video they peddle as reinforcing the validity of their techniques could be met with a hundred morbid realities of people getting sucker punched, stomped, stabbed, shot, and then robbed for nothing other than bad luck and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Basically, people are buying a fairy tale. Which makes sense at this point, because Rickson, obviously.

It goes beyond moves, its mindset. Sorry but I'm gonna disagree with your viewpoint of someone who has never trained their BJJ with a guy trying to knock their head off being able to somehow flip the switch and avoid all the habits that would put the in danger, but would win them points matches at tournaments. To me that's approaching the mindset of kung fu guys who can stop takedowns without ever seeing a real takedown.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I consider it this way. The odds of any blue belt and up "sport" only bjj player *not* being able to intuitively stop punches, reverse position, and escape/end a street fight against an untrained and unarmed opponent is exactly zero. There are no magic punch stopping moves. They're painfully obvious for anyone who has a reasonable amount of experience grappling.

Similarly, the odds of anyone getting into a street fight (that they couldn't avoid) with an untrained, unarmed opponent in a scenario that can only be won with the use of "Gracie Combatives" self-defense techniques is practically zero. And any Gracie Breakdown video they peddle as reinforcing the validity of their techniques could be met with a hundred morbid realities of people getting sucker punched, stomped, stabbed, shot, and then robbed for nothing other than bad luck and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Basically, people are buying a fairy tale. Which makes sense at this point, because Rickson, obviously.

there is actually system called punch block series, its quiete good.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Gracie Combatives IS Gracie Jiujitsu self defense. All through combatives, regardless of the position, being safe and minimizing risk of getting punched is #1 priority. Standing, body lock, rear body lock, bottom side mount, and most of all from the guard. Not a single gi reliant technique or weapon defense is taught in Combatives. When Rener and Ryron are talking self defense, this is what they mean; being punch safe from EVERY position if possible.

I've been to and trained with plenty of friends from typical BJJ gyms and none had ever had anyone talk to them about being punched from bottom side mount, guard, bottom mount etc.

its been my experience too

 

[Alonbenav]

So much of the self defense curriculum resembles judo with no kuzushi to me. And watching some of the white and blue belts do the techniques is even more painful. I started at a Pedro Sauer school with a BB who came to the US with Rickson way back in the day (or so the story goes) and the SD training was an absolute joke. I'd take my current instructor's aggressive standup, which focuses on closing the distance and setting up throws and takedowns over that shit every single day of the week.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

So much of the self defense curriculum resembles judo with no kuzushi to me. And watching some of the white and blue belts do the techniques is even more painful. I started at a Pedro Sauer school with a BB who came to the US with Rickson way back in the day (or so the story goes) and the SD training was an absolute joke. I'd take my current instructor's aggressive standup, which focuses on closing the distance and setting up throws and takedowns over that shit every single day of the week.

the 36 SD helio sd techniques are bullshit.

the new combatives Ryron and Rener have put it though, damn good.

 

[Powerchutek]

I am curious as to how many of those who are exceedingly critical of the Gracie approach are black belts. Two key tenets of BJJ I have been taught are humility and freedom in the art. I am not a black belt and don't presume to harshly condemn men with much more experience than me--decades and decades in this case. I have my opinions, but it is extreme arrogance to just dismiss them and their intentions. BJJ is also different from some other arts in that it allows for creativity and evolution. It can and does change for the better. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity or qualifications of these men, and appreciate that they seem to be working to improve the art. I don't train in their system, but I have learned from them and am thankful for their work.

 

[Codger]

I had a look at the combatives system - it's good and practical for what it is. anyone thinking they can adapt their sport BJJ under vicious battering is kidding themselves . without practice you freeze. however not sure BJJ itself is ideal for a lot of SD situations.

 

[Codger]

When I say champion, I am talking about ibjjf world champions.

The real champions

The real champions at point based BJJ with a limited rule set.

It's not all that surprising that clubs who focus on producing competitors for a very specific rule-set get good at that rule-set. Not sure what that proves other than specific training produces specific results. That being true, training with punches in mind should produce people who are better at that.

When our club does the odd bit with gloves and some training with striker vs a BJJer aiming for takedowns, it becomes quickly apparent that plenty of people would get their heads caved in as they take punches trying to get it to the ground and can't escape mount without opening themselves to fight-ending head punches. If you've been training knee elbow escapes for 3 years then that's what you tend to do when mounted, rather than the GC sequence which is actually pretty sorted at that scenario.

if people don't give a fuck about self defence of other street situations then that's fine but don't try to pretend it's as applicable as training aimed at those things because it clearly isnt.

 

[Was at Pride GP 2000]

so what if I don't train? Doesn't make my point less valid.

T-bone will back me up on this one.

No actual it does make your opinion point less.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The real champions at point based BJJ with a limited rule set.

It's not all that surprising that clubs who focus on producing competitors for a very specific rule-set get good at that rule-set. Not sure what that proves other than specific training produces specific results. That being true, training with punches in mind should produce people who are better at that.

When our club does the odd bit with gloves and some training with striker vs a BJJer aiming for takedowns, it becomes quickly apparent that plenty of people would get their heads caved in as they take punches trying to get it to the ground and can't escape mount without opening themselves to fight-ending head punches. If you've been training knee elbow escapes for 3 years then that's what you tend to do when mounted, rather than the GC sequence which is actually pretty sorted at that scenario.

if people don't give a fuck about self defence of other street situations then that's fine but don't try to pretend it's as applicable as training aimed at those things because it clearly isnt.

while I partly agree with you, high level guys will adapt very fast. The striker vs Bjj part is really not that realistic if its done by both bjjers in a bjj class, because the "striker" rolls knows whats coming and all its coming.

It is much more realistic to cross train with real strikers vs grapplers, this is something not that unheard in gyms that holds both MT and Bjj separatly, it is way way easier to take a pure striker in that class of styles than it is to take a bjj classmate even if its been played under those circunstances. Nonetheless, if you have no basic concept of closing the distance, it becomes evident that a basic concept on setting up tds and how to close the distance is need it.

 

[JoelThomas]

It goes beyond moves, its mindset. Sorry but I'm gonna disagree with your viewpoint of someone who has never trained their BJJ with a guy trying to knock their head off being able to somehow flip the switch and avoid all the habits that would put the in danger, but would win them points matches at tournaments. To me that's approaching the mindset of kung fu guys who can stop takedowns without ever seeing a real takedown.

You think the level of intensity at which you roll with strikes in the gym--no doubt with gloves, on mats, with friends--is in any way preparing you to be tackled onto concrete by a guy on bath salts? Thinking that your mind is prepared for self-defense by practicing Gracie Combatives is like thinking you're ready for the front lines after a few rounds of paintball.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

You think the level of intensity at which you roll with strikes in the gym--no doubt with gloves, on mats, with friends--is in any way preparing you to be tackled onto concrete by a guy on bath salts? Thinking that your mind is prepared for self-defense by practicing Gracie Combatives is like thinking you're ready for the front lines after a few rounds of paintball.

So you think rolling with a guy punching in you in the face doesn't prepare you for a random joe on the streets trying but NEVER rolling with punches in the gym does?

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this topic my friend.

 

[Balto]

I've never understood the focus on teaching BJJers special grappling only strategies to clinch with strikers.

I've found by far the easiest way to clinch with a striker is just to throw some strikes back. I trained striking for many years before I even got into BJJ. Clinches happen all the time naturally. They are not hard to get into at all. They are actually much harder to avoid after a decent combination than they are to get into.

It's not like it takes some superlative striking level to gain this ability. A couple of months of training is all it takes to get the basic ability to force clinches without being knocked out immediately on your first attempt to close distance.

By far the best complement to "street" BJJ I've ever found is a little bit of boxing or MT. Yet I always see rather elaborate ways being taught to clinch with a striker without actually striking yourself. Just keep your hands up, chin down, throw a few punches yourself, and the clinch comes naturally. Definitely seems like the easiest way to me.

 

[JoelThomas]

So you think rolling with a guy punching in you in the face doesn't prepare you for a random joe on the streets trying but NEVER rolling with punches in the gym does?

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this topic my friend.

The previous post referred to mental preparation, not technical. The difference in technical preparation we can disagree to be negligible.

 

[deadlizard]

No actual it does make your opinion point less.

No. There are plenty of LARPers that do not train that are experts in self defense.

 

[deadlizard]

I've never understood the focus on teaching BJJers special grappling only strategies to clinch with strikers.

I've found by far the easiest way to clinch with a striker is just to throw some strikes back. I trained striking for many years before I even got into BJJ. Clinches happen all the time naturally. They are not hard to get into at all. They are actually much harder to avoid after a decent combination than they are to get into.

It's not like it takes some superlative striking level to gain this ability. A couple of months of training is all it takes to get the basic ability to force clinches without being knocked out immediately on your first attempt to close distance.

By far the best complement to "street" BJJ I've ever found is a little bit of boxing or MT. Yet I always see rather elaborate ways being taught to clinch with a striker without actually striking yourself. Just keep your hands up, chin down, throw a few punches yourself, and the clinch comes naturally. Definitely seems like the easiest way to me.

Bro, don't you get it? What you're describing is MMA. It's not a true form of SD.

SD is specific for an environment where you need to defend yourself. It's not even closely related to BJJ, MT, MMA, or any MA you can think of. There are rules in all those "sports" you describe. We train to neutralize bro!

But we can't spar. When you spar, you have "rules". It takes away from the essence of true self defense. Don't fucking water down my art bro.

EDIT: by the way, if I get into a real fight with Rafa, I would totally GnP him to death. His years of training is worthless against my SD techniques. But I can't spar against him. He has to really try to rob me in order for my techniques to work.