illegal immigration and the US workforce

[helltoupee]

hello helltoupee,



yep. i noted that in my response to him.



yep! i also noted this in my response to him.

i'm still waiting for Colby to reply.

- IGIT

They also pay into social security without ever collecting:

According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), unauthorized immigrants -- who are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits -- have paid an eye-popping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade.

"They are paying an estimated $15 billion a year into Social Security with no intention of ever collecting benefits," Stephen Goss, chief actuary of the SSA. "Without the estimated 3.1 million undocumented immigrants paying into the system, Social Security would have entered persistent shortfall of tax revenue to cover payouts starting in 2009," he said.

 

[cooks1]

Go to places where the really low wage jobs are. Fast Food Restaurants, Manual crop picking, Dishwashers, Cashiers, Amusement Park/Movie attendants and the like, personal and non-medical home care aides, lawn maintenance workers, maids, etc......You will almost always, always find these places in a perpetual state of hiring. The demand for these workers already outstrips the supply by quite a bit. The rules of capitalism dictate that when the demand for these jobs outstrips supply, wages should increase. But the fact of the matter is they are not. The hard cold reality is that the law of labor supply and demand as it relates to low wage workers is no longer correct or applicable. Most companies have just decided that they are not going to pay more for these jobs.

So-even if the immigrant supply of labor for these jobs dissipates, you are not likely to see a meaningful increase in wages for these jobs.

 

[Rod1]

but is this an accurate analogy to draw? we're not talking about a phenomenon where local economies are being stimulated at the cost of the national economy. we're talking about the local economy benefiting, full stop.

right?

- IGIT

[/QUOTE]

Again, if Jose lives in town A and sends dollars elsewhere, his family will use said dollars turn them into local currency, the individual who exchanged the dollars will use them to buy American goods and services, which benefits America, but these good and services are quite likely not to come from town A which Jose helped decapitalize to a degree.

 

[Last Samurai]

Hi IGIT,

I'm planning on selling my assets and moving to Florida where I plan to purchase an apple garden and live out my days pressing juice for the locals.

In keeping with the spirit of the President's MAGA initiative I've decided to only hire Americans to do the job and pay them $15/h.

Does this sound a winning idea or what.

Cheers

 

[HunterSdVa29]

illegal immigrants tend to not speak the language, so the types of jobs they get (besides the fact they don't have SSNs or are not paying into taxes most likely) aren't ones that would warrant higher wages if say americans took them.

a dishwasher is a dishwasher, a fruitpicker is a fruitpicker.

legal immigration is much different as there's requirements to even gain admittance (basically an earn your keep status that we don't even apply to our own mooching poor haha), which is the exact reason say Nigerian Immigrants are financially some of the most well off subset of Americans (b/c it's doctors and engineers etc.. coming over from there, not some random farmer who can't read)

There's actually one solid reason we can never get TOO crazy on immigration here in the US: our War industry. When you engage in conflicts all over the world, you then also need Interpreters for those regions, even moreso if there isn't a common language (Afghanistan they speak Dari, Pashtu with smaller groups speaking Arabic, Turkmen, Uzbek, etc...)

 

[Seano]

heya Seano,

this thread isn't really a left vs right thing, and as Rod1 has pointed out, the right has historically been okie dokie with illegal immigration for the very reasons you cited in your post.

- IGIT

I believe my post was relevant to all the things you said.

I pointed out that our polices aren't good for our citizens or illegal immigrants.

 

[IGIT]

Again, if Jose lives in town A and sends dollars elsewhere, his family will use said dollars turn them into local currency, the individual who exchanged the dollars will use them to buy American goods and services, which benefits America, but these good and services are quite likely not to come from town A which Jose helped decapitalize to a degree.

hi Rod1,

but if one goes with the rationale that a rising tide lifts all boats, then Jose's money benefits the US as a while, right?

i may leave this part of things aside, i think, since Jack's explanation indicates the sum total of these dollars is so infinitesimally tiny that its not worth getting in a twist over.

- IGIT

 

[helltoupee]

illegal immigrants tend to not speak the language, so the types of jobs they get (besides the fact they don't have SSNs or are not paying into taxes most likely) aren't ones that would warrant higher wages if say americans took them.

Most illegals are overstays. Which means they have a SSN and obtained the right to work when they were legal.

Given an employer only verifies right to work at time of hire, many of them continue to pay taxes, social security, etc. without ever collecting. I posted a link above from the SSA that stated without illegal contributions to SSA, there would be a shortfall. They also pay tax anytime they buy something (sales tax) and where they live (property tax either directly via ownership or indirectly through rent).

So they do pay taxes. At least most. The rest of your post I agree with.

 

[IGIT]

I believe my post was relevant to all the things you said.

I pointed out that our polices aren't good for our citizens or illegal immigrants.

hi ho Seano,

i just didn't see the point of the "the left wants this and the left wants that" part of your post. with respect, i consider all of that a distraction.

as to your second point, i'm trying to figure out whether its actually good for our citizens. i know it lowers the cost of things, whether its for a piece of fruit or the cost of dining out (something i do with great regularity).

whether its good for the illegal immigrants or not? hmmm. i think they'd say its probably good. crime in some central american countries is really kind of insane - and there's no work there for many of those folks.

- IGIT

 

[My Spot]

What about another category: Those that arrived with visas, but have overstayed? (i.e. came on a tourist visa/ student visa and stayed)

 

[IGIT]

Most illegals are overstays. Which means they have a SSN and obtained the right to work when they were legal.

Given an employer only verifies right to work at time of hire, many of them continue to pay taxes, social security, etc. without ever collecting. I posted a link above from the SSA that stated without illegal contributions to SSA, there would be a shortfall. They also pay tax anytime they buy something (sales tax) and where they live (property tax either directly via ownership or indirectly through rent).

So they do pay taxes. At least most. The rest of your post I agree with.

hey ho helltoupee,

they also help pay for our roads, since they have to use the same gas stations as the rest of us (gasoline tax!).

- IGIT

 

[Seano]

hi ho Seano,

i just didn't see the point of the "the left wants this and the left wants that" part of your post. with respect, i consider all of that a distraction.

as to your second point, i'm trying to figure out whether its actually good for our citizens. i know it lowers the cost of things, whether its for a piece of fruit or the cost of dining out (something i do with great regularity).

whether its good for the illegal immigrants or not? hmmm. i think they'd say its probably good. crime in some central american countries is really kind of insane - and there's no work there for many of those folks.

- IGIT

I don't really care what your opinion is of my posts. I had a thought and I expressed it.

 

[IGIT]

Hi IGIT,

I'm planning on selling my assets and moving to Florida where I plan to purchase an apple garden and live out my days pressing juice for the locals.

In keeping with the spirit of the President's MAGA initiative I've decided to only hire Americans to do the job and pay them $15/h.

Does this sound a winning idea or what.

Cheers

hello there Last Samurai,

In the last 10 years, Brody says he's had only one American ask for a job as an apple picker, and he wanted too much money.

But now, the pay is inching up. Like most growers in the region, Brody says he needs more workers. He's offering an extra dollar per bin of apples picked; in his productive Red Delicious orchards, he's offering $15 per bin. At that rate, a fast worker can make $120 a day.


And yet, Americans still aren't applying for those jobs.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130840422

best wishes.

- IGIT

 

[Rod1]

hi Rod1,

but if one goes with the rationale that a rising tide lifts all boats, then Jose's money benefits the US as a while, right?

i may leave this part of things aside, i think, since Jack's explanation indicates the sum total of these dollars is so infinitesimally tiny that its not worth getting in a twist over.

- IGIT

Yes, it benefits the US as a whole, which is what i said, but it may not be good for the local economy.

Although one could argue that cheap labor benefits the local economy through higher economic output.

 

[IGIT]

I don't really care what your opinion is of my posts. I had a thought and I expressed it.

hello Seano,

i am glad you expressed yourself!

i just think the automotive mode, where you reflexively attack the left - no matter what the topic at hand is - is a rather unfortunate trait that you have.

i understand that you probably can't help yourself, but i just thought i'd comment on it, friend.

- IGIT

 

[lecter]

Ironically illegal immigration in the US labour pool is mostly beneficial for our economy, while there are some uncomfortable problems with legal immigration which need to be addressed.

I'd propose that we continue to outlaw the hiring of illegal aliens and block a pathway to citizenship for most of them but also don't enforce those laws very strictly or in many areas not at all.
Qualified illegal aliens who went to college can get a pathway to citizenship like suggested in this bill
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/h...tatus-for-dreamers-who-meet-criteria.3491743/
I'd add some further restrictions though, looking at the future, a lot of college degrees or fields of work will be significantly less valuable, you can't add too many long term problems for a short term benefit, citizenship doesn't go away.

 

[nostradumbass]

>leftist wants a livable wage for everyone
>american businesses get around this by hiring slave labor
>righties want to punish the slaves but not the employers

What does "punish the slaves" even mean? Fascinating that you view trying to stop people working under the table for slave wages, forcing companies to pay American market value for work "punishing the slave but not the employer". Neither one is punishment, it's a solution to a problem.

In the case of a drug epidemic, the effective strategy is to try to cut off the supply of the drug, not run around chasing every individual who uses the drug.

 

[Jack V Savage]

back to your response, are you saying that if Mr. Trump was able to completely staunch the flow of undocumented immigrants to this country, along with somehow expelling the current ones that reside here, working class wages would see a net positive increase?

I think the most likely effect on working-class wages would be slightly negative.

What I was saying was that there are two main things to consider--increased value and thus demand for labor and increased supply of labor. So you can't really know the bottom-line effect just by thinking about it--you have to look at the evidence.

 

[Rational Poster]

What does "punish the slaves" even mean? Fascinating that you view trying to stop people working under the table for slave wages, forcing companies to pay American market value for work "punishing the slave but not the employer". Neither one is punishment, it's a solution to a problem.

In the case of a drug epidemic, the effective strategy is to try to cut off the supply of the drug, not run around chasing every individual who uses the drug.

We're talking about people, not drugs.

You cannot solve the illegal immigrant issue by focusing solely on the illegals. As you seem to indicate, that's difficult. It's very hard to focus on individuals.

Americans need to be held responsible as well, and more specifically American corporations and small businesses that hire illegals.

If there were no jobs here for them they would stop coming here.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

Most illegals are overstays. Which means they have a SSN and obtained the right to work when they were legal.

Given an employer only verifies right to work at time of hire, many of them continue to pay taxes, social security, etc. without ever collecting. I posted a link above from the SSA that stated without illegal contributions to SSA, there would be a shortfall. They also pay tax anytime they buy something (sales tax) and where they live (property tax either directly via ownership or indirectly through rent).

So they do pay taxes. At least most. The rest of your post I agree with.

well my bad

I assumed the term illegal immigrant was referring to those that immigrated you know, illegally. Like from the onset, not the I stayed past my student or work visa