Losing Faith in the State, Some Mexican Towns Quietly Break Away

[grihenrumet]

Thought it was a bit weird. A bit unclear about events surrounding Mirelles arrest and especially what happened to the autodefensas after. Just seem rushed and not really that informative to me (the latter half of the doc)

Well his arrest I think was illegal firearms possession charges I think but as to the Auto defensas apparently they were infiltrated by the Knights Templars cartel in that area then they (The Autodefensas) started to behave like cartels themselves so that's why the mex gov stepped in and put an end to them also they prob fear vigilantism spreading ...usurping their power by creating a shadow goverment not subservient to their will http://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-the-warlord-of-the-viagras-mexicos-hardest-cartel-yet

 

[Arkain2K]

Yep, but the government doesnt likes competition so as of now that model would only work in native settlements, not regular ones.

The Mexican Supreme Court says indigenous communities can be semi-autonomous, but I'm a little fuzzy on the definition. Does this means the town also has to be at certain designated geographical locations (like our federally-recognized Indian Reservations) to meet the criteria, or any town anywhere can jump on the "uses and customs" train as long as they claim to have an indigenous population majority at the time of declaration?

The town recruited outside legal expertise to exploit provisions of Mexican law that allow communities with indigenous majorities to set up a form of self-government, incorporating traditional “uses and customs” into their rule.

I'm glad things worked out for Cherán, but their selfless communal blueprint is probably being abused everywhere else, where the new town leaders are quickly paid for and the self-defense police quickly turns into the cartel they're supposed to fight.

 

[Rod1]

The Mexican Supreme Court says indigenous communities can be semi-autonomous, but I'm a little fuzzy on the definition. Does this means the town also has to be at certain designated geographical locations (like our federally-recognized Indian Reservations) to meet the criteria, or any town anywhere can jump on the "uses and customs" train as long as they claim to have an indigenous population majority at the time of declaration?

I think they have to have an indigenous majority, which usually means they speak a native tongue or something like that.

Its ripe for abuse though or to some really backward shit to go on on these towns.

 

[Rod1]

Well his arrest I think was illegal firearms possession charges I think but as to the Auto defensas apparently they were infiltrated by the Knights Templars cartel in that area then they (The Autodefensas) started to behave like cartels themselves so that's why the mex gov stepped in and put an end to them also they prob fear vigilantism spreading ...usurping their power by creating a shadow goverment not subservient to their will http://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-the-warlord-of-the-viagras-mexicos-hardest-cartel-yet

Nah, Mexican government intervened in order to protect the narco-governor.

Those autodefensas who were infiltrated were the ones that werent targeted by government.

 

[Thunderflash500]

Every liberal cuck "bro you think guns will protect you from the government? They have jets idiot!"

Well it worked here!

 

[Rod1]

Every liberal cuck "bro you think guns will protect you from the government? They have jets idiot!"

Well it worked here!

Except it didnt, if the Mexican army wanted they would take the town in a day.

They kicked out organized crime and the town police, they are still under federal jurisdiction.

 

[Arkain2K]

I think they have to have an indigenous majority, which usually means they speak a native tongue or something like that.

Its ripe for abuse though or to some really backward shit to go on on these towns.

I know what you mean, tribal laws in villages far away from civilizations are quite ghastly (especially in the Middle East, war-torn Africa, and South Asia), where modern laws are ignored.

Looks like the law-abiding, tax-paying Cheran indigenous population are church-goers and there are women on their town's ruling council, so at least we know there's no shitty stuff like forced child brides or genital mutilations there.

 

[Rod1]

I know what you mean, tribal laws in villages far away from civilizations are quite ghastly (especially in the Middle East, war-torn Africa, and South Asia), where modern laws are ignored.

Looks like most of the Cheran population are church-goers, and there are women on the ruling council, so at least we know there's no forced child brides or genital mutilations there.

Most indigenous populations are church goers, but they are stuck in the XIX century, so thats XIX century catholic morals.

Cheran seems like it was a nice town who simply used the "uses and customs" precedent to avoid the federal or state government coming to reestablish the municipal government.

The nickname given to uses and customs is "Abuses and customs"

 

[Rod1]

For example, the most common criticism is the leniency towards child abuse,, (@WiolentOne is right here) there is a big problem with those communities having women being married young or abused (think hillbilly) and then the fathers and the community leaders claiming that in order to repair her honor she must be married to the abuser. Or if the abuser is already married (catholic monogamy after all) he must pay with some sort of tribute.

Although since they are still beholden to federal and state law, a grieved party can still travel to a city and put a complaint there, but a lot of times they prefer to solve it within its own community. Or the authorities simply dont care about native issues and letting it go.

Thanks to social media though, its all changing.

For example in this case an evangelical pastor (@ripskater not a catholic problem only) molested an 8 years old girl, but because he was a religious figure it was treated like a lesser crime (like having sex with a post-pubescent minor) and the community decreed the pastor had to pay with 20 liters of beer.

The father of the girl of course decided it was complete BS since it was a fucking 8 years old girl and went to social media and NGOs which forced the State government to go to the town and arrest the pastor.

Still i wouldnt be surprised if the family is going to be ostracized by the evangelical community of that particular town.

 

[Thunderflash500]

Except it didnt, if the Mexican army wanted they would take the town in a day.

They kicked out organized crime and the town police, they are still under federal jurisdiction.

Sounds like it worked great. That's the point. They aren't fighting jets they are fighting corrupt police and gangsters. A PRIME example why we should kill people who try to disarm the public.

 

[Rod1]

Sounds like it worked great. That's the point. They aren't fighting jets they are fighting corrupt police and gangsters. A PRIME example why we should kill people who try to disarm the public.

Limiting the types of weapons that are available doesnt necesarly means disarming a population, neither is the registration and regulation of said weapons.

 

[WiolentOne]

For example, the most common criticism is the leniency towards child abuse,, (@WiolentOne is right here) there is a big problem with those communities having women being married young or abused (think hillbilly) and then the fathers and the community leaders claiming that in order to repair her honor she must be married to the abuser. Or if the abuser is already married (catholic monogamy after all) he must pay with some sort of tribute.

Although since they are still beholden to federal and state law, a grieved party can still travel to a city and put a complaint there, but a lot of times they prefer to solve it within its own community. Or the authorities simply dont care about native issues and letting it go.

Thanks to social media though, its all changing.

For example in this case an evangelical pastor (@ripskater not a catholic problem only) molested an 8 years old girl, but because he was a religious figure it was treated like a lesser crime (like having sex with a post-pubescent minor) and the community decreed the pastor had to pay with 20 liters of beer.

The father of the girl of course decided it was complete BS since it was a fucking 8 years old girl and went to social media and NGOs which forced the State government to go to the town and arrest the pastor.

Still i wouldnt be surprised if the family is going to be ostracized by the evangelical community of that particular town.

Altho, i definitely think Christianity played a role, i have also noticed that small communities tend to be more forgiving. Its sort of a necessity when you have several large families/clans going back several generations living together as group.

To punish 1 person severly is to punish many.

 

[Greoric]

Which is why @Greoric's points never have any substance.

That's an assertion (and a wildly unsupportable one), not an argument.

 

[Undying Poster]

Greoric is my favorite crazy person in the WR

 

[panamaican]

That's an assertion (and a wildly unsupportable one), not an argument.

It wasn't meant as an argument. It's a hyperbole laced opinion meant to convey a general impression, not to persuade.

 

[Arkain2K]

Limiting the types of weapons that are available doesnt necesarly means disarming a population, neither is the registration and regulation of said weapons.

That's also another interesting point in this discussion.

ALL of the automatic assault weapons (mainly AR-15) currently being used by Cherán's own patrol are government property (illegally) seized from the police's armory when the townsfolks forced the cops out 6 years ago.

I highly doubt any of the townsfolks have registered those stolen firearms with the Mexican government since, or offer to pay for them.

Technically, Big Brother can roll in and get their shit back if they really wanted.

 

[Rod1]

That's also another interesting point in this discussion.

ALL of the automatic assault weapons (mainly AR15) currently being used by Cherán's own patrol are government property (illegally) seized from the police's armory when the townsfolks forced the cops out 6 years ago.

I highly doubt any of the townsfolks have registered those firearms with the Mexican government since.

Mireles didnt needed an AR-15s to start his uprising though.

 

[Rod1]

Technically, Big Brother can roll in and get their shit back if they really wanted.

Technically yes, they can and they would find little resistance in terms of arms.

In political terms? that would be different, in the end its biggest weapon was the law an the supreme court that validated their autonomy.

If the supreme court had ruled against them, rest assured they wouldnt exist anymore as an independent community.

Also i would rather have experienced hunters with bolt action cal 22 rifles than random drugged idiots with AR-15s like the cartels field.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Good to see indigenous people uniting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation

Has been happening.

They declared war against Mexico State. These guys go further than that little town, and have been at it for a while.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation

Has been happening.

They declared war against Mexico State. These guys go further than that little town, and have been at it for a while.

yeah I'm aware of the zapatistas. wish they werent commies. i still respect them tho.