Question about Sprints

[4daLuLZ]

Yeah couldn't agree more, 70 sec 400m reps are enough for me to be redlining by the end. Few guys i run with are repping in the low 60s and it's so hard to imagine the effort you have to put in to shave 3-4 seconds off for each rep

I do 12 reps at 95 seconds each. One minute breaks. 3 times a week in the morning.
Dying by the middle.
The last few reps are 5-6 seconds slower, the last is on the money again.

Can run a 60 - 63 (depending on day / correct pacing) second flat out sprint.

Generally work on blocks of 4 - 6 weeks depending on intensity. Then a 4 - 7 day super easy week to break up the blocks.

Training for 3x3 amateur boxing competition.

 

[4daLuLZ]

It's not an and/or, it's a continuum. In the one end you have LISS which is aerobic conditioning, cardiovascular "health", ability to recover, development of oxidative enzymes, capillary density, oxidative fiber characteristics, eccentric cardiac hypertrophy and so on. On the other, you have HIT which is aerobic threshhold/anerobic conditioning, ability to dispose of lactate, anerobic fiber characteristics, power production and concentric cardiac hypertrophy. The two exist on a continuum and overlap at some point, but at the ends they do not replace each other.

You have to decide where you are on that continuum and what the sport requires. For any aerobic sport, sprints are a very useful supplement for performance, but the foundation is LISS. If HIT was what they said, then the Crossfit champ would truly the fittest man on earth.

You can do heavy resisted, high intensity, balls to the wall training from here and to eternity, but if your aerobic foundation and conditioning is not up to par, you will still not be fresh and recovered in boxing or MMA. You do not build up that system as effectively by doing HIT.

Best practice, which is both from evidence and clinical experience, has shown time and time again that the individuals with the ability to keep their conditioning throughout a fight are the guys who do not neglect their LISS work. It is as much about learning to control your output and put a sustained effort, as it is the adaptions.

My resting heart rate is about 45 - 48. Weight about 170lbs maybe 2-3 below.
Can run for about an hour or two at about 7 - 7.5 kmph if I want to keep that heart rate below 140. Say 135 - 140.
Am I aerobically developed enough ?

 

[NurseKnuckles]

What did you actually run for 5k?

19:52

 

[NurseKnuckles]

What length/height were the hills?

Short. 25-40 yards.

 

[Sano]

My resting heart rate is about 45 - 48. Weight about 170lbs maybe 2-3 below.
Can run for about an hour or two at about 7 - 7.5 kmph if I want to keep that heart rate below 140. Say 135 - 140.
Am I aerobically developed enough ?

Developed for what? Either way, it sounds pretty good yes.

It's always hard to say, and what is enough really. Economy in what you do matters a lot too. Your resting HR is low, which is good, but that could be partly genetic. You can run 7,5-15km in one go which is solid, but the pace is low and you're light. I wouldn't up the distance, unless you want to be a marathon runner. What I mean is that context matters.

Sounds good though! How often do you run, and how do you feel when doing whatever sport it is you do?

 

[Thorpedo28]

I do 12 reps at 95 seconds each. One minute breaks. 3 times a week in the morning.
Dying by the middle.
The last few reps are 5-6 seconds slower, the last is on the money again.

Can run a 60 - 63 (depending on day / correct pacing) second flat out sprint.

Generally work on blocks of 4 - 6 weeks depending on intensity. Then a 4 - 7 day super easy week to break up the blocks.

Training for 3x3 amateur boxing competition.

If you are able to run a 60 second 400m then surely 95s arent going to putting any pressure on at all?!

Also 3 track sessions a week is a lot dude and you probably aren't giving yourself enough time to recover, do you do any other running? If not i would probably ditch the middle session in the week and run for 6-7 miles instead at a really steady pace.

The 4-6 week blocks with a middle easy week seems similar to me, i have signed up to my first marathon and will be certainly having a deload week every 4-5 weeks to aid recovery

 

[4daLuLZ]

If you are able to run a 60 second 400m then surely 95s arent going to putting any pressure on at all?!

Also 3 track sessions a week is a lot dude and you probably aren't giving yourself enough time to recover, do you do any other running? If not i would probably ditch the middle session in the week and run for 6-7 miles instead at a really steady pace.

The 4-6 week blocks with a middle easy week seems similar to me, i have signed up to my first marathon and will be certainly having a deload week every 4-5 weeks to aid recovery

Yeah you would think but those 95s are brutal. Don't knock it till you've tried it. That's a 19m 5k pace. The first 3-4 are fairly easy. I have to concentrate to not break pace and go too fast .....but after that ? Fuhgedaboudit.
I reach >95% HR but not full EPOC / breathlessness / oxygen debt.

When I do all out sprint blocks, then I usually only do 2 a week. I figure cuz they're sub maximal sprint - runs, that I can do 3 a week. The middle session of the week, I've marked as variable. I'll do them half volume (6 instead of 12) if I feel overtrained but so far I haven't needed to. I monitor myself carefully for overtraining.
Still sleeping fine. Get my morning wood. Not feeling frazzled / unable to concentrate as when I was I the last week of my all out sprint block which was 2 X (3x400m) + 2x100m + 1x50m break between reps and 5m between sets.

If I feel slightly off, then I'll skip the session and move it to the next day.
I do one day of LISS. Hour long morning session of cycling / shadowboxng / running (20 minute each).

First marathon, eh ?

Brutal. I've done a couple halfs. 1:40 but God are they long.
Can't imagine doing it twice as long.

 

[4daLuLZ]

Developed for what? Either way, it sounds pretty good yes.

It's always hard to say, and what is enough really. Economy in what you do matters a lot too. Your resting HR is low, which is good, but that could be partly genetic. You can run 7,5-15km in one go which is solid, but the pace is low and you're light. I wouldn't up the distance, unless you want to be a marathon runner. What I mean is that context matters.

Sounds good though! How often do you run, and how do you feel when doing whatever sport it is you do?

Developed enough to stay concentrating on anaerobic / lactic development.

HR isn't genetic. I used to compete full time. Had a HR of 48-50. Then stopped for 5 years. HR came back up to 70-75bpm.
It went back to my training "normal" real fast though. I guess muscle memory ?

That pace is only to keep that HR @ 135-140. I can bang out a 50m 10k with about a 7 - 8 in perceived effort. 48m if I try to kill it. 5k in 22:30 - 23.
Or do you mean that pace is slow for that given HR ?

I run about 3-4 times a week. Including evening sport sessions plus 2 weight training ones.
I take 1.5 - 2 days off a week.

Was gassing in sparring real hard in the beginning. But it's improving now. Oh yeah

Still can't go 3 rounds all out. But it's 1 Rd all out, 1 round 75-80 % and last round fairly gassed but not dying. It was half a round all out, 1 round of getting beat up when I started but not now.
Body "heaviness" is how I would describe the feeling of gassing.
Not my heart lungs. Recovery is ok but could be better. No more lactate burn but a feeling of "heaviness" is there.

I think it's a mix of muscular endurance and lactate clearance issues. That and nerves.

5 years off does mess your game up. But it's coming back.....I hope.

 

[Sano]

Developed enough to stay concentrating on anaerobic / lactic development.

HR isn't genetic. I used to compete full time. Had a HR of 48-50. Then stopped for 5 years. HR came back up to 70-75bpm.
It went back to my training "normal" real fast though. I guess muscle memory ?

That pace is only to keep that HR @ 135-140. I can bang out a 50m 10k with about a 7 - 8 in perceived effort. 48m if I try to kill it. 5k in 22:30 - 23.
Or do you mean that pace is slow for that given HR ?

I run about 3-4 times a week. Including evening sport sessions plus 2 weight training ones.
I take 1.5 - 2 days off a week.

Was gassing in sparring real hard in the beginning. But it's improving now. Oh yeah

Still can't go 3 rounds all out. But it's 1 Rd all out, 1 round 75-80 % and last round fairly gassed but not dying. It was half a round all out, 1 round of getting beat up when I started but not now.
Body "heaviness" is how I would describe the feeling of gassing.
Not my heart lungs. Recovery is ok but could be better. No more lactate burn but a feeling of "heaviness" is there.

I think it's a mix of muscular endurance and lactate clearance issues. That and nerves.

5 years off does mess your game up. But it's coming back.....I hope.

HR is genetic in the way it responds to the training and how low it'll get with how much volume. Just as woman naturally have a higher resting heart rate than men, about 10bpm, while being equally conditioned. Yeah it definitely responds to training no matter what, I wasn't saying that you naturally had that low a HR without training. If you did, you would have bradycardia.

Sounds like you would benefit from the sprint training more than the LISS at this moment yes, not that you should cut the longer sessions out completely. I would tone them down to 2 times a week and then do sprints 2-3 times a week for about 3-4 weeks, take a break for a week or two and then see where you are at. Imo, increasing sprint volume should be done in blocks as they are very demanding. Especially with all the other training you're doing. There are plenty of sprint/HIT protocols out there you could follow, I would start conservatively and then build up the number of sets gradually in the 3-4 weeks.

I think @biscuitsbrah had a pretty interesting one from Joel Jamieson?

Is your best 5k time 22:30? If so, yeah then you would probably benefit from the speedwork, considering the aerobic base you have.

Btw, going all out, I mean, sparring is just as much about learning how to be efficient with your energy, but you probably already know that.

 

[4daLuLZ]

Is your best 5k time 22:30? If so, yeah then you would probably benefit from the speedwork, considering the aerobic base you have.

Btw, going all out, I mean, sparring is just as much about learning how to be efficient with your energy, but you probably already know that.

My best time is 21m flat but that was when i was competing
Will get there and past, one day soon. 20m flat is the goal.
The 22:30 is a bit slow though. I don't really concentrate on fast 5k runs anymore as I think that works the wrong energy systems for me. I think.
Either go faster for less distance or go slower but longer......is what I'm thinking.

Yeah, yeah ....by sparring "all out" I don't mean full retard. I mean with the same intensity I'd fight at....or should fight at.
However, high level amateur fights, outside North America n Western Europe at any rate, are very high paced. See the WSB series / World Championships etc.

More so than when I competed and especially in N.A where it was.
I remember a more "pro" level pacing.
At least that's how I remember it.
The scoring and judging criteria have changed.

 

[Thorpedo28]

Yeah you would think but those 95s are brutal. Don't knock it till you've tried it. That's a 19m 5k pace. The first 3-4 are fairly easy. I have to concentrate to not break pace and go too fast .....but after that ? Fuhgedaboudit.
I reach >95% HR but not full EPOC / breathlessness / oxygen debt.

When I do all out sprint blocks, then I usually only do 2 a week. I figure cuz they're sub maximal sprint - runs, that I can do 3 a week. The middle session of the week, I've marked as variable. I'll do them half volume (6 instead of 12) if I feel overtrained but so far I haven't needed to. I monitor myself carefully for overtraining.
Still sleeping fine. Get my morning wood. Not feeling frazzled / unable to concentrate as when I was I the last week of my all out sprint block which was 2 X (3x400m) + 2x100m + 1x50m break between reps and 5m between sets.

If I feel slightly off, then I'll skip the session and move it to the next day.
I do one day of LISS. Hour long morning session of cycling / shadowboxng / running (20 minute each).

First marathon, eh ?

Brutal. I've done a couple halfs. 1:40 but God are they long.
Can't imagine doing it twice as long.

My 5k pb is 20:34 and that was after beers the night before so hoping for 20 mins before the end of the year, no kids at the moment so thought i'll tick it off the list before that changes!
Yeah my half pb is 1:38 but in much better shape now so hoping to go sub 1:35 next month.

Just done 6 x 3 min session with a couple of sub 18mins 5k guys (couldn't keep up) but feel utterly broken now!

Currently around 30 miles a week but aiming to build up to 40-50 along with 2-3 gym sessions

 

[4daLuLZ]

My 5k pb is 20:34 and that was after beers the night before so hoping for 20 mins before the end of the year, no kids at the moment so thought i'll tick it off the list before that changes!
Yeah my half pb is 1:38 but in much better shape now so hoping to go sub 1:35 next month.

Just done 6 x 3 min session with a couple of sub 18mins 5k guys (couldn't keep up) but feel utterly broken now!

Currently around 30 miles a week but aiming to build up to 40-50 along with 2-3 gym sessions

Great numbers. Better than mine, at any rate. Only your half M times seem low in comparison. I'm sure you'll crush 1:38 in no time. Think lower. 1:35ish.

I don't put up half that mileage. Less than 25 miles / week.
Not enough to drop time at the rate I should or can. However, running is incidental to my sport and it's a conscious decision to hold back.

By 6x3 you probably covered ~800mts ?
Thats a good hard run.

You should try that routine of mine for one session. For you, that'd be 12 runs of 400mts in 85 seconds. One minute rest.

Comes out to 17:50ish 5k time. Great at building that leg strength and especially in teaching that race pace.
The first 2 should feel real breezy but then you start feeling it. By the 6th you're just wishing for the end.

 

[JonJonesLines]

I was heavy, 6 months removed from back surgery and my wife signed us up for a 5k. She's a great runner (ran xc in college), in her mid 30's, and breaks 20 every time.

I ran long (5 mile trail) 1x a week, lifted 3x a week, and rode the Airedyne 3x a week (30 sec on, 30 sec off for 15 minutes). I ended up breaking my PR by 45 seconds and 20mins and beat my wife in a sprint at the end haha

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Of course, just saying its a greuling session.

As it 8 x 800
Pyramid sessions such as 200,400,600,800,800,600,400,200

I used 100,200,300,400,400,300,200,100 at about 75%

 

[KnightTemplar]

It's not an and/or, it's a continuum. In the one end you have LISS which is aerobic conditioning, cardiovascular "health", ability to recover, development of oxidative enzymes, capillary density, oxidative fiber characteristics, eccentric cardiac hypertrophy and so on. On the other, you have HIT which is aerobic threshhold/anerobic conditioning, ability to dispose of lactate, anerobic fiber characteristics, power production and concentric cardiac hypertrophy. The two exist on a continuum and overlap at some point, but at the ends they do not replace each other.

You have to decide where you are on that continuum and what the sport requires. For any aerobic sport, sprints are a very useful supplement for performance, but the foundation is LISS. If HIT was what they said, then the Crossfit champ would truly the fittest man on earth.

You can do heavy resisted, high intensity, balls to the wall training from here and to eternity, but if your aerobic foundation and conditioning is not up to par, you will still not be fresh and recovered in boxing or MMA. You do not build up that system as effectively by doing HIT.

Best practice, which is both from evidence and clinical experience, has shown time and time again that the individuals with the ability to keep their conditioning throughout a fight are the guys who do not neglect their LISS work. It is as much about learning to control your output and put a sustained effort, as it is the adaptions.

On that bolded point: a 2014 meta-analysis found that people suffering from various forms of cardiovascular disease, including high blood pressure and obestity who completed a course of HIIT-style training developed almost twice the VO2 Max of people with similar conditions who completed a course of Moderate Intensity Continuous Training.

To clarify, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd just like your opinion on this.

 

[Sano]

On that bolded point: a 2014 meta-analysis found that people suffering from various forms of cardiovascular disease, including high blood pressure and obestity who completed a course of HIIT-style training developed almost twice the VO2 Max of people with similar conditions who completed a course of Moderate Intensity Continuous Training.

To clarify, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd just like your opinion on this.

Can you link the review?

I've seen simular studies before. Well, usually VO2max increase is neck and neck during the same timeframe, but obviously you invest less actual training time in HIT. A few issues with studies like those are that they are all very short sigthed, they use untrained subjects and that VO2max is far from the only thing that ties into cadiovascular health. Taking someone from a shit VO2 max, to a less shit VO2max in a short time doesn't tell us everything. It's more of an performance measurement really.

The studies I've read comparing the two, they are almost always 2-4 weeks long. Take someone who is untrained and introduce a HIT program and they will rapidly increase their VO2max. The thing is, HIT training is most effective in that timeframe, and then it start dropping off. If the studies were longer, like 8-16 weeks, then I'm sure you would see the LSD training group pull ahead. They would certainly be able to sustain aerobic effort for a longer period of time. Take into consideration training over the years, then the picture changes even more. VO2 might, or it might not, tie into that because there are so many other things going on.

I've seen other studies where already trained subjects performed HIT training for several weeks and did not noticeable improve their VO2max, but they did however improve their power production and ability to sustain near max effort. Better ability to transport lactic acid away from the blood and other by products too.

Recovery is another important one. You simply cannot get near the same training volume with HIT, and the training certainly do not foster recovery. With LSD it does. Think about the physiology of it. How can you expect your entire cardiovascular system to adapt to seconds of stimuli? The endothel cells like to be oxyginated for longer periods of time, and same with the heart. HIT also stimulates the sympathetic nervous system which means less recovery, more anxiety and higher blood pressure (oversimplification). There is also a reason why national guidelines suggests LSD for high blod pressure and cardiac disease, and in some cases advices against HIT/heavy resistance training. There's a lot more, but I wont go into the specifics of it because that will take forever. If you want to, I wrote these two going in depth (including commentating on some of the evidence):

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/cardio-level-relation-with-blood-pressure.3486937/#post-128248557
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/work-out-or-sleep.3570645/#post-131870143

 

[therealdope]

On that bolded point: a 2014 meta-analysis found that people suffering from various forms of cardiovascular disease, including high blood pressure and obestity who completed a course of HIIT-style training developed almost twice the VO2 Max of people with similar conditions who completed a course of Moderate Intensity Continuous Training.

To clarify, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd just like your opinion on this.

I find that almost impossible to believe unless you mean "achieved twice the gains".

 

[KnightTemplar]

Can you link the review?

I've seen simular studies before. Well, usually VO2max increase is neck and neck during the same timeframe, but obviously you invest less actual training time in HIT. A few issues with studies like those are that they are all very short sigthed, they use untrained subjects and that VO2max is far from the only thing that ties into cadiovascular health. Taking someone from a shit VO2 max, to a less shit VO2max in a short time doesn't tell us everything. It's more of an performance measurement really.

The studies I've read comparing the two, they are almost always 2-4 weeks long. Take someone who is untrained and introduce a HIT program and they will rapidly increase their VO2max. The thing is, HIT training is most effective in that timeframe, and then it start dropping off. If the studies were longer, like 8-16 weeks, then I'm sure you would see the LSD training group pull ahead. They would certainly be able to sustain aerobic effort for a longer period of time. Take into consideration training over the years, then the picture changes even more. VO2 might, or it might not, tie into that because there are so many other things going on.

I've seen other studies where already trained subjects performed HIT training for several weeks and did not noticeable improve their VO2max, but they did however improve their power production and ability to sustain near max effort. Better ability to transport lactic acid away from the blood and other by products too.

Recovery is another important one. You simply cannot get near the same training volume with HIT, and the training certainly do not foster recovery. With LSD it does. Think about the physiology of it. How can you expect your entire cardiovascular system to adapt to seconds of stimuli? The endothel cells like to be oxyginated for longer periods of time, and same with the heart. HIT also stimulates the sympathetic nervous system which means less recovery, more anxiety and higher blood pressure (oversimplification). There is also a reason why national guidelines suggests LSD for high blod pressure and cardiac disease, and in some cases advices against HIT/heavy resistance training. There's a lot more, but I wont go into the specifics of it because that will take forever. If you want to, I wrote these two going in depth (including commentating on some of the evidence):

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/cardio-level-relation-with-blood-pressure.3486937/#post-128248557
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/work-out-or-sleep.3570645/#post-131870143

Unfortunately not. I was quoting from the Wiki page on HIIT.

Excellent response. Thank you for taking the time for such an indepth answer.

 

[Sano]

Unfortunately not. I was quoting from the Wiki page on HIIT.

Excellent response. Thank you for taking the time for such an indepth answer.

No worries. I've spent a lot of time on the topic both in school and as a leisurely activity.

I checked the wikipedia page and have seen the metanalysis before that was mentioned. This one, however, I had not seen and it actually goes a little more in depth with other factors than just VO2max : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25771785

A few things. The secondary outcomes are good risk factors for cardiovascular disease, but again they don't paint the entire picture. We already know that HIT is good for some metabolic ailments (mostly transporting glucose and insulin away from the bloodstream). The protocol they are talking about is 4x4 min at 85-95% HRmax with 4x3 (or 3x3) minutes of active "recovery" at 60-70% HRmax between sets, which is a total of 28 minutes continous work. Not exactly what I think about when I think HIT. Lastly the authors mention small sample size and big variability in secondary outcomes, so there's that.

It's still interesting, but you'd have to read the study in it's entirety to make an informed opinion and consider which outcomes they didn't measure and what the context is.

 

[KnightTemplar]

No worries. I've spent a lot of time on the topic both in school and as a leisurely activity.

I checked the wikipedia page and have seen the metanalysis before that was mentioned. This one, however, I had not seen and it actually goes a little more in depth with other factors than just VO2max : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25771785

A few things. The secondary outcomes are good risk factors for cardiovascular disease, but again they don't paint the entire picture. We already know that HIT is good for some metabolic ailments (mostly transporting glucose and insulin away from the bloodstream). The protocol they are talking about is 4x4 min at 85-95% HRmax with 4x3 (or 3x3) minutes of active "recovery" at 60-70% HRmax between sets, which is a total of 28 minutes continous work. Not exactly what I think about when I think HIT. Lastly they authors themselves mention small sample size and big variability in secondary outcomes, so there's that.

It's still interesting, but you'd have to read the study in it's entirety to make an informed opinion and consider which outcomes they didn't measure and what the context is.

Agreed. It's sometime's difficult to define HIIT. I've seen the term used to discribe everything from 20 second sprints on a stationary bike to 200 meter hill "sprints", although I would venture to suggest that hill repeats would probably be more a more accurate discription.