Opinion Should they ban assault weapons?

[Long Dark Blues]

Clearly 61% of sherdoggers love guns more than they love their children

Lol, shut up.

 

[plataoplombo]

I think these types of events have in a way become the popular way to kill people. Similar thing was happening in Europe last year when the go to way of taking out large amounts of people was to plow into them while driving a van. What is the difference between an AR-15 and any other semi auto weapon.

 

[Trotsky]

Clearly 61% of sherdoggers love guns more than they love their children

Or they understand American constitutional jurisprudence and the need to narrowly tailor infringement on constitutional rights. Banning firearms on arbitrarily, largely aesthetic bases is clearly not sufficiently narrow and accurate tailoring.


(or, what is more likely, is that they just like guns, but whatever).

 

[Dolomite]

I think high capacity magazine bans are reasonable, but a lot of people are going to disagree with me.

Like the 1994 - 2004 ban? What effect did that have on violent crime?

I'd personally like to see higher standards for issuing CC licenses,

This guy was years away from being allowed to apply for one.

I'm ok with extending waiting periods,

Can you point to one State where waiting periods have the direct result of lowering violent crime?

and I'd support a universal database of owners (on face value).

Yes, you support registration. Of course you do.

I can understand the opposing point of views, but I'm going to get called an idiot for my opinion anyway.

Hey - You're not an idiot.

Ultimately, imo, the best long term way to reduce gun violence is to reduce the guns in circulation.

I'd like small legislation that make gun ownership a minor hassle. Critics will say that this is just punitive to law abiding owners, but that would be kind of the point;

What a fucking idiotic thing to fucking write.

 

[Broken arrow]

it sure seems better suited for assault than hunting

Doesn’t really matter what you think it seems like. In reality, it’s a semi-automatic rifle that looks scary to people that know nothing about it

 

[zebby23]

Or they understand American constitutional jurisprudence and the need to narrowly tailor infringement on constitutional rights. Banning firearms on arbitrarily, largely aesthetic bases is clearly not sufficiently narrow and accurate tailoring.


(or, what is more likely, is that they just like guns, but whatever).

I like drugs... But I can't have them

 

[Gregolian]

Or they understand American constitutional jurisprudence and the need to narrowly tailor infringement on constitutional rights. Banning firearms on arbitrarily, largely aesthetic bases is clearly not sufficiently narrow and accurate tailoring.


(or, what is more likely, is that they just like guns, but whatever).

The moment I saw a gun control supporting legislature tell Tucker Carlson that a "barrel shroud" is a "thing on the back that flips up" I can no longer take the politicians or celebrities that squawk on this matter seriously.

 

[Trotsky]

The moment I saw a gun control supporting legislature tell Tucker Carlson that a "barrel shroud" is a "thing on the back that flips up" I can no longer take the politicians or celebrities that squawk on this matter seriously.

There is definitely a problem of information asymmetry on the issue, where (as is the case with many topics) the persons with the most information about a complicated topic are the ones who are hobbyists and distinctly pro-firearm.

Also, I have no idea what a barrel shroud is. I've never owned a gun.

 

[LukeSkyrocker]

Guns should be an earned privilege not a constitutional right. Like yknow.. a car. Stupid Americans

 

[Gregolian]

There is definitely a problem of information asymmetry on the issue, where (as is the case with many topics) the persons with the most information about a complicated topic are the ones who are hobbyists and distinctly pro-firearm.

Also, I have no idea what a barrel shroud is. I've never owned a gun.

I know they exist on shotguns and they're essentially something that helps disappate the heat.

Given the gun in question during this video I saw I would imagine the lady was talking about banning the hand guard:

It's the thing between the main body of the gun and the front site/end of the barrel... AKA, THE ONLY THING THAT KEEPS ME FROM BURNING MY HAND WHEN I SHOOT IT!

 

[Gregolian]

Guns should be an earned privilege not a constitutional right. Like yknow.. a car. Stupid Americans

They are... they're not fucking cheap if you don't want something that will become a brick in 5 shots.

 

[sub_thug]

Not to cop out, but everyone is going to have a different definition of what is "reasonable". For instance, I think high capacity magazine bans are reasonable, but a lot of people are going to disagree with me. I'd personally like to see higher standards for issuing CC licenses, I'm ok with extending waiting periods, and I'd support a universal database of owners (on face value). I can understand the opposing point of views, but I'm going to get called an idiot for my opinion anyway.
Ultimately, imo, the best long term way to reduce gun violence is to reduce the guns in circulation. There are a lot of ways to do that, but if the goal is to have an immediate, demonstrable change, the methods are probably going to be unreasonable. I'd like small legislation that make gun ownership a minor hassle. Critics will say that this is just punitive to law abiding owners, but that would be kind of the point; You reduce the amount of legal guns in circulation, you have the effect of eventually lowering the amount of illegal guns in circulation or gun related crime all together.
There are other ways to effect gun crime without going into gun control, like tackling income inequality or other broad economic changes, etc. And I'm supportive of that as well. It's probably easier politically to attack gun violence without actually mentioning guns.

I appreciate your response. As a gun owner and someone with a lot of experience using them in both private and professional capacities, I have my own views on the subject. I will use those views to address some of your points below.

High capacity mags: I wouldn't have an issue with banning them, but I think it's just highly ineffective. Most pistol mags won't have more than 15 rounds, but the size of the magazine tends to be dependent on the gun and caliber of the bullet. It's quite common to see 15-round mags with Glocks or pistols chambered for 9mm. For a 1911, a .45 caliber pistol, typically, you will see 6-8 rounds in those mags. I haven't seen any data to suggest that larger capacity handguns are used more often or more effectively than say, a 1911. Since long-guns make up 3% of the murder rate when a firearm is used, limiting their magazine capacity probably wouldn't have much of an effect. For what it's worth, I went through a course where I had to change out one 30-round mag for another and effectively put a shot on target in under 2 seconds. So changing mags is not inherently difficult. Finally, at the end of the day, it's a box with a spring. Manufacturing them with 3D printers isn't difficult, and controlling the production of these is unlikely to occur. I guess that what I am saying is that I think implementing this is a lot of work to produce virtually no meaningful gain, so maybe we can use our time and effort in a better way in order to reduce violence.

CC licenses: This is a really hard one to address because it varies so much by state. When I got my Texas one, I had to go through a 8-hour class, show competency on a pistol, undergo a background check, give them my fingerprints, and apply. It was a pretty lengthy process that took about 2 months (although there was a backlog at the time). When I was in Pennsylvania, I had to go down to the courthouse, stand in line, fill out some paperwork, and that was it. I was done in about 20 minutes. I think training is great, and I am all for having high standards. Despite feeling this way, I haven't seen a clear linkage between states that have really high standards and low crime rates where a gun is a factor versus states that have lower standards and higher gun crimes.

Waiting periods: Some states don't have waiting periods. I have never waited for a gun in my life (other than the 10-20 minutes it takes to do a background check while I am at the counter). I just don't see how they'll be helpful, and I haven't seen any data to support that they are. If you have some good data, please share it with me.

Databases: This has a bunch of second and third-order effects. To have an accurate database, you would need all existing gun owners to self-report. You would also need to end all person-to-person sales, any gifts, etc. And to what end? Please elaborate why you think this might be good or helpful, as I'd like to hear your point of view. As it seems now, this is a lot like the High Capacity Mags thing: A lot of work for negligible yield.

Income inequality: I think that this gets at something very real. While I don't think that people are totally motivated out of desperation, I think changing things up in places that have high amounts of crime where a gun is used would be helpful. Most cities in America are seeing reduced levels of violent crime in general, so this is good! Something is obviously working, although the pace is a little slow for most people's temperaments most of the time. Some still have a long way to go in reducing this crime, but the only one where things are really bad is Chicago. They also have a lot of issues with drugs and insufficient policing (expressed in numbers of LEOs and/or their effectiveness relative to other departments), at least in the South Side of Chicago (where virtually all the crime occurs). I think cleaning up the area is probably the best solution, although that's going to be a slow process. If we use a Relief, Recovery, Reform model, I think we need to immediately clamp down on the crime and lock up the bad guys/those who want to be criminals (let's face it, some people consciously choose to be violent criminals because they think it will make them rich, they think it's romantic because they've seen too many movies or something, or don't want to be proficient at things that are productive to society), whereas others enter into criminality because of its availability or because they don't see other options as meaningful chances to build a future. Once you can get a little bit of order, you need to rebuild some of the property to raise the property values of those neighborhoods so that people want to live there, and work to raise levels of education and bring in businesses that will create avenues for those educated people to enter into. It's going to be a little bit stick and a little bit carrot.

I hope that this maybe helps move the dialogue along.

 

[Gregolian]

For what it's worth, I went through a course where I had to change out one 30-round mag for another and effectively put a shot on target in under 2 seconds.

Granted Lucas is a damn trainer and sends probably close to 100k rounds down range a year:

 

[FacePunch]

Anyone capable with a shotgun could get the same kind of casualty count, or near to it.

Ridiculous, false, and uninformed statement.

 

[Luminaire]

Ridiculous, false, and uninformed statement.

Virginia Tech kid did more damage with a couple pistols.

Better outlaw those as well.

 

[Higus]

Like the 1994 - 2004 ban? What effect did that have on violent crime?

IIRC, it lowered crimes committed with AWs, but it shifted to crimes being committed to other guns with high capacity magazines that didn't fall under a designated AW categories. I'd argue it was a failure because of a loophole and a limited scope, but that's just conjecture.

This guy was years away from being allowed to apply for one.

Irrelevant to the conversation. I was asked a broad question on what types of legislation I find reasonable.

Can you point to one State where waiting periods have the direct result of lowering violent crime?

I've seen articles that say either no effect or a positive effect.
http://www.pnas.org/content/114/46/12162
Here's the best study I could find. tl;dr:

Waiting period laws that delay the purchase of firearms by a few days reduce gun homicides by roughly 17%. Our results imply that the 17 states (including the District of Columbia) with waiting periods avoid roughly 750 gun homicides per year as a result of this policy. Expanding the waiting period policy to all other US states would prevent an additional 910 gun homicides per year without imposing any restrictions on who can own a gun.

Whether or not you think the findings are significant enough to justify waiting periods is a different conversation

Yes, you support registration. Of course you do.

You're not an idiot.

Am I supposed to be impressed that the US has a lower rate of firearm homicides per capita than most 3rd world countries? Let's at least compare apples to apples.

What a fucking idiotic thing to fucking write.

 

[Last Samurai]

Doesn’t really matter what you think it seems like. In reality, it’s a semi-automatic rifle that looks scary to people that know nothing about it

you're right, I know nothing about it.
I'm quite confused about what function the AR-15 serves in society, apart from being a great tool for killing large amounts of people. care to explain?

 

[Teppodama]

Or they understand American constitutional jurisprudence and the need to narrowly tailor infringement on constitutional rights. Banning firearms on arbitrarily, largely aesthetic bases is clearly not sufficiently narrow and accurate tailoring.


(or, what is more likely, is that they just like guns, but whatever).

Or have no kids and have adopted firearms.

 

[Luminaire]

you're right, I know nothing about it.
I'm quite confused about what function the AR-15 serves in society, apart from being a great tool for killing large amounts of people. care to explain?

I believe you could answer this question yourself. So do your best, and then share your opinion for why they should be outlawed.

 

[FacePunch]

Virginia Tech kid did more damage with a couple pistols.

Better outlaw those as well.

His comment was about a shotgun, jeanyus. I'd be fine with a handgun ban if it could actually be enacted with any effectiveness. Pretty much the only reason I need or want a handgun is to defend myself from other people with guns, mostly handguns.

Would you like to discuss the combat effectiveness of shotguns?