Judo Gene LeBell On Karl Gotch

[Slick_36]

I consider UFC 1 to be the early days of MMA, because it was the first freestyle fighting competition with very minimal rules to simulate a real fight.

Pancrase was not truly MMA, because:

• No elbows to the head (neither while standing nor on the ground).
• No closed-fist strikes to the head (neither while standing nor on the ground).
• No knees to the head on the ground.
• No kicks/stomps to the head on the ground.

Shooto was a little more like MMA than Pancrase in that fist strikes were allowed, but its rule sets were still very restricted. For example, elbows weren't allowed. Ground and pound wasn't allowed. Also, fighters on the ground would get stood up after a short period.



While it may have been true that the Gracie used the UFC was a marketing platform for BJJ, the martial art itself was legit and proven to be one of the 3 most important bases of MMA at the top level of competition.

That makes no sense. Elbows weren't allowed in Strikeforce or Pride, grounded kicks aren't allowed in UFC, gloves protect your hands when striking with a closed fist so they wouldn't have need closed fist striking without gloves. Your reasoning for what modern makes modern MMA isn't consistent. You could say that modern MMA didn't exist until the rules were identical to what the UFC uses now, but that means BJJ isn't the dominant grappling art any more than wrestling.

 

[mkt]

Are there really any techniques from Catch Wrestling that don't already existed in BJJ, western wrestling, or Judo?

From what I have seen, Catch Wrestling is a hybrid of western wrestling and Judo, the no-striking "Sambo."

Never studied it, but there was talk of jaw locks and other techniques you don't see much in other grappling arts. I'm sure some BJJ guys have learned or stumbled on most of them at some point. The jaw lock is a good example of something you don't want to do to your training partners. I haven't watched these, but here are some examples:
http://funkmma.com/site/catch-wrestling-with-tony-cecchine/

Most Cecchine stuff is from the 90s so it hasn't evolved with MMA and tournament-level BJJ. And there's controversy in catch circles about whether guys like Cecchine are legit teachers who are part of the lineage.

 

[Slick_36]

Are there really any techniques from Catch Wrestling that don't already existed in BJJ, western wrestling, or Judo?

From what I have seen, Catch Wrestling is a hybrid of western wrestling and Judo, the no-striking "Sambo."

Do you know what catch is? Western wrestling is a specialized direct offshoot of catch and BJJ was developed by incorporating judo and catch techniques, just branded cross training. You have it backwards, there's techniques that BJJ didn't have without catch wrestling. The techniques aren't what separate catch, it's the philosophy and ruleset. You get more spinal cranks, leglocks, and emphasis on top control in catch wrestling.

 

[MMAart]

Like I already said, there were way fewer catch wrestlers than BJJ guys at the time of early MMA, and it was a watered down version of catch. And the opposite was true during Gotch's era. He was probably the best in the world at the time, it would be foolish to think that he couldn't leg lock random early BJJ practitioners.

I'm sure he could leg lock random early BJJ practitioners. The keyword here being *random early BJJ practitioners*.

You comparing it to fantasy martial arts only shows your ignorance.

You missed my point, which was about the typical bullshit claims back in the early days of modern martial arts when there were no MMA and internet to challenge these claims from "martial art masters." The level of bullshit claims varies, of course, but the same idea applies: Lots of fake claims about incredible feats of martial art techniques without any proofs to back them up.

The champions of the UFC are all wrestlers, and that wrestling descended from catch.

I never said wrestling isn't an important base in MMA. It's one of the 3 most important bases. What I'm saying is that Catch wrestling (not wrestling) is just basically a hybrid of wrestling with Judo, a "Sambo without striking," and it lacks the depth of wrestling and BJJ.

 

[mkt]

I never said wrestling isn't an important base in MMA. It's one of the 3 most important bases. What I'm saying is that Catch wrestling (not wrestling) is just basically a hybrid of wrestling with Judo, a "Sambo without striking," and it lacks the depth of wrestling and BJJ.

No, catch and Western wrestling were developed independently of judo. BJJ has elements of both. Maeda was a judoka who also competed, trained with and learned from catch wrestlers. So what he taught the Gracies was influenced by catch to some extent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda

But the bottom line is that catch didn't originate out of judo. They came about independently and clashed in the early 1900s when catch wrestler Ad Santel beat the world's best judo representatives.

 

[Slick_36]

Never studied it, but there was talk of jaw locks and other techniques you don't see much in other grappling arts. I'm sure some BJJ guys have learned or stumbled on most of them at some point. The jaw lock is a good example of something you don't want to do to your training partners. I haven't watched these, but here are some examples:
http://funkmma.com/site/catch-wrestling-with-tony-cecchine/

Most Cecchine stuff is from the 90s so it hasn't evolved with MMA and tournament-level BJJ. And there's controversy in catch circles about whether guys like Cecchine are legit teachers who are part of the lineage.

That submission that Khabib finished Conor with was more catch than BJJ. It's a bit more brute force than pure fluid technique. Now a real BJJ competitor will go hard and muscle moves when they have to, but that's where the catch philosophy of explosive force with no hesitation comes in to play. You can catch submissions from inopportune positions, emphasis on top control opens up those windows of opportunity. Conor didn't give up the neck for a choke, but he got caught in a bad position and allowed Khabib to put his spine in a compromising position with what you'd call a cross face in wrestling.

We see what looks like a rear naked choke in BJJ or judo, but Khabib is a wrestler and being allowed to submit an opponent, he can essentially use a cross face to finish a fight as opposed to just gaining a better position like in wrestling.

 

[Rvd Slmr]

Basic statistic

With a greater talent pool, you have better chance to find an unbelievable talent.

That doesn't mean the art is better

Or you can also consider that the effectiveness of catch-wrestling was skewed by a limited number of poster boys, while we have no clue what the avreage catch-wrestler is supposed to look like? Maybe there's actually a reason that it's not as popular now that there is a public proving ground? Why couldn't Shamrock, Barnett and Saku train any high level proteges that's currently making wave? There is literally no new generation of grapplers/MMA fighters carrying the torch of catch wrestling.

 

[mkt]

That submission that Khabib finished Conor with was more catch than BJJ. It's a bit more brute force than pure fluid technique. Now a real BJJ competitor will go hard and muscle moves when they have to, but that's where the catch philosophy of explosive force with no hesitation comes in to play. You can catch submissions from inopportune positions, emphasis on top control opens up those windows of opportunity. Conor didn't give up the neck for a choke, but he got caught in a bad position and allowed Khabib to put his spine in a compromising position with what you'd call a cross face in wrestling.

We see what looks like a rear naked choke in BJJ or judo, but Khabib is a wrestler and being allowed to submit an opponent, he can essentially use a cross face to finish a fight as opposed to just gaining a better position like in wrestling.

Yeah, and I also remember Matt Hughes submitting Almeida and Phil Davis submitting someone (Prado?) with catch techniques. Rogan didn't know what to call them...he claimed they were brute strength moves. He thought they made them up on the spot or something.

 

[Slick_36]

I'm sure he could leg lock random early BJJ practitioners. The keyword here being *random early BJJ practitioners*.



You missed my point, which was about the typical bullshit claims back in the early days of modern martial arts when there were no MMA and internet to challenge these claims from "martial art masters." The level of bullshit claims varies, of course, but the same idea applies: Lots of fake claims about incredible feats of martial art techniques without any proofs to back them up.



I never said wrestling isn't an important base in MMA. It's one of the 3 most important bases. What I'm saying is that Catch wrestling (not wrestling) is just basically a hybrid of wrestling with Judo, a "Sambo without striking," and it lacks the depth of wrestling and BJJ.

BJJ has those same stories and lies, like the 400-0 Rickson claim. So I don't know what you're trying to get at there. Do you just ignore everything that isn't filmed?

You don't understand, catch was the more developed and populated form of grappling compared to BJJ or wrestling at the time. The best catch wrestlers were as skilled at control as the best amateur wrestlers, and BJJ was in it's infancy while catch was a worldwide sport with a competitive scene. It would be like saying Marcelo Garcia couldn't beat the handful of guys who train catch now, the difference in experience, competition, and refinement of technique are huge. At that time there was no BJJ or wrestling as you know it today, they came from catch wrestling and refined certain aspects of it. At that time, catch was king.

 

[mkt]

BJJ has those same stories and lies, like the 400-0 Rickson claim.

I like Frank Dux's 339-0 claim more. It's slightly more believable since he didn't use a perfectly round number like 400! And Ron Tripp beat Rickson in a sambo match, so he's 400-1, LOL.

 

[Rvd Slmr]

BJJ has those same stories and lies, like the 400-0 Rickson claim. So I don't know what you're trying to get at there. Do you just ignore everything that isn't filmed?

Nobody is making threads about that myth being true, it literally became a joke around here.

 

[Slick_36]

Yeah, and I also remember Matt Hughes submitting Almeida and Phil Davis submitting someone (Prado?) with catch techniques. Rogan didn't know what to call them...he claimed they were brute strength moves. He thought they made them up on the spot or something.

Just a beautiful front headlock. Definitely a catch move, though it's super common to see in modern wrestling, it predates it and originated in catch. You'd typically use that move to prevent the movement of your opponent so you can take their back. Like a cross face is used to turn an opponent over to their back and gain position. The ability to finish moves like this in MMA means you see them used how they would have in the days of catch, as opposed to a means to gain position and control like in wrestling.

 

[Slick_36]

Nobody is making threads about that myth being true, it literally became a joke around here.

That's what I'm trying to understand, we all know that before film and regulated competition, martial artists told stories and lies. That doesn't mean it's all bullshit though, just means you can't take everything at face value.

 

[MMAart]

That makes no sense. Elbows weren't allowed in Strikeforce or Pride,

Of course it makes sense. Pancrase had more limitation than Strikeforce and Pride, and therefore, it was less similar to a modern MMA competition than Strikeforce and Pride.

grounded kicks aren't allowed in UFC, gloves protect your hands when striking with a closed fist so they wouldn't have need closed fist striking without gloves. Your reasoning for what modern makes modern MMA isn't consistent. You could say that modern MMA didn't exist until the rules were identical to what the UFC uses now, but that means BJJ isn't the dominant grappling art any more than wrestling.

During the early UFC days, there was pretty much no rules (except for biting and eye gouging). BJJ proved to be an indispensable martial art back then and now. An MMA fighter cannot survive without fundamental knowledge of BJJ for submission defense and surviving on the ground when taken down. Wrestling is equally as important, for takedown defense and dictating where the fight take place.

However, Catch wrestling is NOT important for high level MMA, because it's not a unique standalone martial art but rather, it has hybrid elements of wrestling and submission. And because of its hybrid nature, it lacks the depth of both wrestling and BJJ.

 

[mkt]

That's what I'm trying to understand, we all know that before film and regulated competition, martial artists told stories and lies. That doesn't mean it's all bullshit though, just means you can't take everything at face value.

While I definitely don't believe the "400" part, I think Rickson claims a win for every street fighter, karate orange belt, self-proclaimed boxer, etc who walked into a Gracie gym and got submitted by him.

 

[Rvd Slmr]

That's what I'm trying to understand, we all know that before film and regulated competition, martial artists told stories and lies. That doesn't mean it's all bullshit though, just means you can't take everything at face value.

I'm a purple belt and I obviously respect BJJ, but I do think this story is just bullshit, just like I didn't look for excuses and was simply deeply disappointed when Royce and Werdum pissed hot. BJJ prides itself for, unlike TMA, weeding out bullshit techniques, I believe the healthy thing to do it to apply the same mentality to our history.

 

[Slick_36]

Of course it makes sense. Pancrase had more limitation than Strikeforce and Pride, and therefore, it was less similar to a modern MMA competition than Strikeforce and Pride.



During the early UFC days, there was pretty much no rules (except for biting and eye gouging). BJJ proved to be an indispensable martial art back then and now. An MMA fighter cannot survive without fundamental knowledge of BJJ for submission defense and surviving on the ground when taken down. Wrestling is equally as important, for takedown defense and dictating where the fight take place.

However, Catch wrestling is NOT important for high level MMA, because it's not a unique standalone martial art but rather, it has hybrid elements of wrestling and submission. And because of its hybrid nature, it lacks the depth of both wrestling and BJJ.

How do you not get this? At the time of the claim you're questioning, catch was the more developed art with the deeper talent pool. Gotch wasn't grappling against Gordon Ryan or Roger Gracie. It was exactly it's hybrid approach that made it superior to BJJ (GJJ) or amateur wrestling at the time, amateur wrestling wasn't as developed in technique and didn't have as deep of a talent pool as you know it today plus was completely ignorant to submissions, BJJ was inferior at control and takedowns, essentially just judo newaza with some catch moves thrown in with a very small talent pool. Catch of today isn't important for MMA, but no one is arguing that. What's being argued is that the grappling arts that are pillars of MMA evolved from catch.

 

[mahavishnunj]

I'm ready to get flamed because I know how respected he is, but I see LeBell first and foremost as an entertainer and his claims have to be taken with a big grain of salt.

totally. hes entertaining as fuck but a bullshitter extraordinaire

 

[Slick_36]

I'm a purple belt and I obviously respect BJJ, but I do think this story is just bullshit, just like I didn't look for excuses and was simply deeply disappointed when Royce and Werdum pissed hot. BJJ prides itself for, unlike TMA, weeding out bullshit techniques, I believe the healthy thing to do it to apply the same mentality to our history.

You'll have to find me the techniques in catch that weren't effective then. They absolutely had an advanced leglock game that only recently was embraced by BJJ.

 

[MMAart]

BJJ has those same stories and lies, like the 400-0 Rickson claim. So I don't know what you're trying to get at there. Do you just ignore everything that isn't filmed?

The 400-0 Rickson claim was obviously exaggerated, but it's not unrealistic for a trained BJJ practitioner at a high level to win 50-100 fights against street fighters who have no knowledge of grappling. Royce Gracie proved himself against trained opponents.

You don't understand, catch was the more developed and populated form of grappling compared to BJJ or wrestling at the time. The best catch wrestlers were as skilled at control as the best amateur wrestlers, and BJJ was in it's infancy while catch was a worldwide sport with a competitive scene. It would be like saying Marcelo Garcia couldn't beat the handful of guys who train catch now, the difference in experience, competition, and refinement of technique are huge. At that time there was no BJJ or wrestling as you know it today, they came from catch wrestling and refined certain aspects of it. At that time, catch was king.

Catch wrestling was "king" back then, because it benefited from having both elements of wrestling and submission, something that pure wrestling and pure BJJ lacked. I never disputed this point. My point is that Catch was basically a hybrid in its nature (not because it borrowed ideas), and for this reason, it lacked specialization and refinement of techniques like wrestling and BJJ do. Therefore, as time went on, wrestling became the best martial art at takedown and takedown defenses, and BJJ became the best at ground submission and defenses, and this more or less made Catch wrestling obsolete for modern MMA training, where fighters are better off training the refined techniques in wrestling and BJJ.