What's the argument for Floyd being "greater" than Muhammad Ali?

Rudeboyben84 said:
No let’s not just look at stats. Let’s look at who they beat, that’s the most important thing really

Pacman
Oscar
Canelo
Cotto
JMM
Corrales
Hatton
Castillo
Mosley
Berto

Put 10 names on Ali’s record better than them. Ali is top heavyweight over Louis for me because of who he beat despite a worse record.

who you beat is the beat along with who you lost to is the only way to judge a boxer. Ali’s record doesn’t hold up to Mayweathers especially when you consider a lot of these guys were bigger than him.

The ONLY reason for Ali over Floyd is because he was more fun to watch, his style was beautiful and Floyd’s wasn’t fan friendly. That’s the reality of it.
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can’t i make a pretty easy argument that oscar, cotto, pac shane and canelo were either grossly past their primes or not in their prime?
 
XThe GreatestX said:
can’t i make a pretty easy argument that oscar, cotto, pac shane and canelo were either grossly past their primes or not in their prime?
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Oscar was bigger

Pac-Man was younger

Canelo was much bigger and younger and had more than 40 fights under his belt.

Cotto was younger and bigger and had only 1 legit loss coming up to that fight (we all know hands of plaster cheated)

Mosley fair enough wasn’t at his best but was far from a shot fighter he beat Mayorga (in a hell of a scrap ) two fights before winning a title.

we gotta take Ali’s wins and look at them now

Patterson: His retirement fight.

Mathis: Two fights before he retired

Archie Moore: pretty much his retirement fight

So Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Three great fighters. Can’t really include the ones above seeing as he picked off fighters about to retire.

If you dissect the records some of Ali’s wins were well past their best. Far more so than Floyd’s.
 
Rudeboyben84 said:
Oscar was bigger

Pac-Man was younger

Canelo was much bigger and younger and had more than 40 fights under his belt.

Cotto was younger and bigger and had only 1 legit loss coming up to that fight (we all know hands of plaster cheated)

Mosley fair enough wasn’t at his best but was far from a shot fighter he beat Mayorga (in a hell of a scrap ) two fights before winning a title.

we gotta take Ali’s wins and look at them now

Patterson: His retirement fight.

Mathis: Two fights before he retired

Archie Moore: pretty much his retirement fight

So Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Three great fighters. Can’t really include the ones above seeing as he picked off fighters about to retire.

If you dissect the records some of Ali’s wins were well past their best. Far more so than Floyd’s.
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So because Oscar was bigger your saying that makes it ok that he was 8 years removed from his prime?

Cotto was basically damaged goods until his resurgence under Roach

You saying Canelo was in his prime? Cmon...


Hey i like floyd but I don’t really see it. On top of those 3 for ali you also have basically every good heavyweight from the 70s from Norton to Lyle to Shavers to Young etc.

Shrug. I think Floyd is up there. But resume wise I don’t think it’s that close in favor of Ali

hell how many great fighters did floyd beat that were legitimately in their primes?

hatton (who we forget almost lost to collazo in his only other fight at ww), corrales (i guess if we want to say is great), castillo (shit are we sure floyd even beat him the first time?) and JMM who was great
 
XThe GreatestX said:
can’t i make a pretty easy argument that oscar, cotto, pac shane and canelo were either grossly past their primes or not in their prime?
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If you're doing the same for who you're comparing Floyd to, sure.
 
XThe GreatestX said:
So because Oscar was bigger your saying that makes it ok that he was 8 years removed from his prime?

Cotto was basically damaged goods until his resurgence under Roach

You saying Canelo was in his prime? Cmon...


Hey i like floyd but I don’t really see it. On top of those 3 for ali you also have basically every good heavyweight from the 70s from Norton to Lyle to Shavers to Young etc.

Shrug. I think Floyd is up there. But resume wise I don’t think it’s that close in favor of Ali

hell how many great fighters did floyd beat that were legitimately in their primes?

hatton (who we forget almost lost to collazo in his only other fight at ww), corrales (i guess if we want to say is great), castillo (shit are we sure floyd even beat him the first time?) and JMM who was great
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Prime is very subjective, granted Canelo wasn’t at his best but was Floyd in his prime? Canelo was surely closer to his?

I maybe see Cotto through rose tinted glasses as my family are all fans of his. Didn’t really think he had dropped off that bad. Again he was younger than Floyd so not in prime works both ways.

Not in their prime argument doesn’t work for me when they are younger Pac-Man and cotto especially.

70s was a good era, I do rate Young, Lyle, Shavers and Norton. All good fighters. I’d still say line up the names they beat and Floyd has beat more highly regarded guys

Agree to disagree. I’d certainly have Ali top 3 of all time, would just have Floyd ahead.

Guys like Shavers to me are fringe top 50 of all time at heavyweight and while past their best Oscar and Shane are legit P4p legends for example but these are two I’d agree you can’t argue we’re past their best
 
XThe GreatestX said:
So because Oscar was bigger your saying that makes it ok that he was 8 years removed from his prime?

Cotto was basically damaged goods until his resurgence under Roach

You saying Canelo was in his prime? Cmon...


Hey i like floyd but I don’t really see it. On top of those 3 for ali you also have basically every good heavyweight from the 70s from Norton to Lyle to Shavers to Young etc.

Shrug. I think Floyd is up there. But resume wise I don’t think it’s that close in favor of Ali

hell how many great fighters did floyd beat that were legitimately in their primes?

hatton (who we forget almost lost to collazo in his only other fight at ww), corrales (i guess if we want to say is great), castillo (shit are we sure floyd even beat him the first time?) and JMM who was great
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Did Shane look old in his previous fight?
 
Seano said:
Did Shane look old in his previous fight?
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Against margarito? No. But he also fought a good opponent for his skillset

did he look old 4 months aftet the floyd fight where he went to a draw with sergio mora? Or when he got blown out a year later against pacquiao?
 
XThe GreatestX said:
Against margarito? No. But he also fought a good opponent for his skillset

did he look old 4 months aftet the floyd fight where he went to a draw with sergio mora? Or when he got blown out a year later against pacquiao?
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Couldn't I just say Mora was a bad opponent for his skillset? Who wasn't looking bad against Pac at that point? Seems to make more sense to look at who he was leading up to the Floyd fight. In his previous 8, he lost one, a close fight with Cotto and beat guys like Margarito, Collazo and Vargas.

You could say Roberto Duran dropped off after Ray fought him. Or that Frazier was damaged goods when Ali beat him. Hell, Pacs whole resume would be void.
 
aries said:
Exactly. Floyd in his prime never fought anyone that he wasn't supposed to beat.
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I don’t know what the odds were but if memory serves, many observers thought Deigo Corrales was going to stop Floyd before they fought.
 
Rudeboyben84 said:
Oscar was bigger

Pac-Man was younger

Canelo was much bigger and younger and had more than 40 fights under his belt.

Cotto was younger and bigger and had only 1 legit loss coming up to that fight (we all know hands of plaster cheated)

Mosley fair enough wasn’t at his best but was far from a shot fighter he beat Mayorga (in a hell of a scrap ) two fights before winning a title.

we gotta take Ali’s wins and look at them now

Patterson: His retirement fight.

Mathis: Two fights before he retired

Archie Moore: pretty much his retirement fight

So Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Three great fighters. Can’t really include the ones above seeing as he picked off fighters about to retire.

If you dissect the records some of Ali’s wins were well past their best. Far more so than Floyd’s.
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or probably Ali made them retire?
 
SandaKicker said:
I agree but if you remove context from the equation then his win over Roy Jones could be huge.
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Exactly. @Seano keeps bleating on about Floyd beating a 40 yr old Mosley, who looked shit against Mayorga and beat Margarito(on the night he'd just been exposed as a cheat). As if this Mosley is somewhat comparable to a 30 yr old Duran who hadnt lost for 7 years. Context is everything and thats where Floyd falters badly.
 
cocksure said:
Exactly. @Seano keeps bleating on about Floyd beating a 40 yr old Mosley, who looked shit against Mayorga and beat Margarito(on the night he'd just been exposed as a cheat). As if this Mosley is somewhat comparable to a 30 yr old Duran who hadnt lost for 7 years. Context is everything and thats where Floyd falters badly.
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Duran was known for his inconsistency. Leonard admitted himself that he knew that Duran balooned up after fights, so he took advantage of it and went for an immediate rematch. So Duran being relatively young is not much worth when he wasn't fully there with his head.

Leonard also admitted that he waited for the right time to fight Hagler. He saw that Hagler had slowed down when he was in attendance the Mugabi fight. And what does Hagler do after the fight? Walks away from the sport. He knew his time of dominance was up... Leonard just knew it before.

People accusing Floyd of what Leonard was doing, because the nostalgic factor kicks in.
 
defjaam said:
Duran was known for his inconsistency. Leonard admitted himself that he knew that Duran balooned up after fights, so he took advantage of it and went for an immediate rematch. So Duran being relatively young is not much worth when he wasn't fully there with his head.

Leonard also admitted that he waited for the right time to fight Hagler. He saw that Hagler had slowed down when he was in attendance the Mugabi fight. And what does Hagler do after the fight? Walks away from the sport. He knew his time of dominance was up... Leonard just knew it before.

People accusing Floyd of what Leonard was doing, because the nostalgic factor kicks in.
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You do realise Marvin was still the champ? Hadnt lost for 11 years? Is regarded as the best MW ever?
 
defjaam said:
Duran was known for his inconsistency. Leonard admitted himself that he knew that Duran balooned up after fights, so he took advantage of it and went for an immediate rematch. So Duran being relatively young is not much worth when he wasn't fully there with his head.

Leonard also admitted that he waited for the right time to fight Hagler. He saw that Hagler had slowed down when he was in attendance the Mugabi fight. And what does Hagler do after the fight? Walks away from the sport. He knew his time of dominance was up... Leonard just knew it before.

People accusing Floyd of what Leonard was doing, because the nostalgic factor kicks in.
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Hagler got robbed, he won that fight against Leonard
 
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