STIPE vs. JONES (the intangibles)

[PitDoggMMA]

First, I think Stipe should fight Jon Jones before he fights Ngannou.

Any "Champion vs. Champion" fight should take precedence over any "Champion vs. already-beaten contender." Period, there is nothing to debate.

Beating Jones would be a significant achievement for Stipe; beating Ngannou would be a repeat of what he has already done.

That said, Stipe is a much more dangerous opponent "for Jones" than Jones is for Stipe. The truth is, Jones isn't really dangerous at all for Miocic:

• In his last 9 fights, spanning the last 7 years (Sept, 2013 to today), Jones only has 2 finishes. (22%)
• In his last 13 fights, spanning the last 7 years (Jun, 2013 to today), Stipe has 8 finishes. (62%)

When you further consider the fact Stipe is facing much bigger men ... while a majority of Jones' opponents are bloated middleweights, moving up ... the difference in proven power is even more staggering (pardon the pun ).

Looking at the four fighters who have given Jones the most trouble: 1) Gustafsson, 2) Cormier, 3) Santos, and 4) Reyes.

Two of these fighters were Jones' size (Gustafsson and Reyes), while two of them were smaller.

Jon Jones has never faced an authentically-bigger man ...
and he struggles with anyone his own size (let alone a legit, Champion-caliber BIGGER man).

• Keep in mind. Jon Jones is 6'4", and leans-out to a ripped 205.
• Meanwhile, Stipe Miocic is 6'4", and leans out to a ripped 233.

This means Jones, at his leanest-BEST is 28 lb. of lean muscle mass smaller than Stipe, while having the same height.

• While Stipe does have a KO loss to Cormier, I think we can all agree it was a fluke at this point.
• If you compare the "other two" Cormier fights, each won a decision and got a KO.

Note: Cormier is a special fighter and is atypical for a short, portly individual. Corier's "fireplug" stature makes him particularly difficult for anyone to deal with, and only Jones and Stipe were able to conquer him. Cormier has beaten everybody else. (Jones' KO was also overturned for steroid abuse; Stipe's was not.)

Considering the struggles with the only other two individuals Jones has faced "his size" (Gustafsson and Reyes) ... who are frail and light, compared to Stipe ... Jones will find Stipe's TRULY solid frame too much to deal with.

If Jon Jones was worried about "being hit by" the laughable Reyes (who is soft, weak, and flimsy compared to Stipe), or Thiago Santos (a bloated middleweight, on 2 bad knees, 2" shorter than he), Jones will really have something to worry about facing a LEGIT (not fatass) 6'4", lean 233 monster ... who is quick, who is equally-skilled, and who hits harder than anyone Jones has ever faced.

Even Dominick Reyes looked "a little pudgy" at 205, and was clearly nervous, whereas Stipe is a true alpha-male, ripped at 6'4", 233 lb, and is not a nervous/novice or "still-growing boy."

My best guess is, being highly intelligent, Jon Jones will not have the balls ever to face Stipe, because he has the fight IQ to assess all of the above himself, in private. (Nonetheless, Jones will continue to "tweet on Twitter," but I very much doubt he has the cajones to actually sign the contract.)

In case I am wrong on this part, I will not be wrong on the most important part, and that is Stipe Miocic will dominate Jon Jones, overpower Jon Jones, and out-punch & out-will Jon Jones, to get a mid-to-late-round stoppage. Stipe will dominate Jones standing up, or on the ground, as Jones is actually a thin, flimsy man by comparison at heavyweight.

I hope we all get to see this happen.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

First, I think Stipe should fight Jon Jones before he fights Ngannou.

Any "Champion vs. Champion" fight should take precedence over any "Champion vs. already-beaten contender." Period, there is nothing to debate.

4 KO's in 4 minutes of fighting since he lost.

JJ is demanding renegotiations and a ton of money.

So your premise of your entire long post is not really based in reality. In this one instance, Dana > you.

EDIT: sorry, 3 minutes of fighting.

 

[No Skill Gap]

4 KO's in 4 minutes of fighting since he lost.

JJ is demanding renegotiations and a ton of money.

So your premise of your entire long post is not really based in reality. In this one instance, Dana > you.

EDIT: sorry, 3 minutes of fighting.

I completely agree with TS and completely disagree with you.

You are simply doing the Sherdog Special here in throwing away all context while riding the hot sherdog favorite in Ngannou. Yeah "4 KOs in 4 minutes" and two of them were over Cain's animated corpse and JDS' glass jaw. Before those 4 KOs he lost two in a row to Derrick Lewis and Stipe.

Jon Jones has the best resume' in the entire sport of MMA, he's never actually lost (outside of Reyes, which he technically won). Sure there's always the steroid asterisk, but that kind of looms over a lot of fighters and everyone acknowledges that for Jones. He's the 1st or 2nd best fighter ever with an asterisk or even knocking him down for PEDs he's still top 5 all-time easily.

Can't disagree more with your side of the argument regarding Ngannou's title shot. It's as if he has some undeniable shot, which he doesnt' and which he would need to be above Jones.

 

[PitDoggMMA]

4 KO's in 4 minutes of fighting since he lost.

JJ is demanding renegotiations and a ton of money.

So your premise of your entire long post is not really based in reality. In this one instance, Dana > you.

EDIT: sorry, 3 minutes of fighting.

Not sure what you're talking about.

Yes, I realized Jones will likely not have the nut sack to actually face a man bigger than he is. Jones has enjoyed in entire career facing smaller men.

This is why I never rate Jones very high in any pound-for-pound status. (If Jones managed to beat Stipe, I would obviously change this opinion, but I would bet $100 to a doughnut this won't happen.)

If Jones does have the cajones to face Stipe, he will get overmatched & overpowered on every level.

His skinny, flimsy legs, and his entire career have been nurtured around smaller, weaker, weaker-willed men.

He will be outclassed in every one of these regards if he faces Stipe.

 

[Fergelmince]

4 KO's in 4 minutes of fighting since he lost.

JJ is demanding renegotiations and a ton of money.

So your premise of your entire long post is not really based in reality. In this one instance, Dana > you.

EDIT: sorry, 3 minutes of fighting.

Lol, this thread is barely 20min old and the ngannou butthurt is already epic

 

[No Skill Gap]

Not sure what you're talking about.

Yes, I realized Jones will likely not have the nut sack to actually face a man bigger than he is. Jones has enjoyed in entire career facing smaller men.

This is why I never rate Jones very high in any pound-for-pound status. (If Jones managed to beat Stipe, I would obviously change this opinion, but I would bet $100 to a doughnut this won't happen.)

If Jones does have the cajones to face Stipe, he will get overmatched & overpowered on every level.

His skinny, flimsy legs, and his entire career have been nurtured around smaller, weaker, weaker-willed men.

He will be outclassed in every one of these regards if he faces Stipe.

Well for your post, I liked it because I couldn't agree more with the first two lines. Beyond that I think you're very off regarding Jones.

Once instance is "a very ripped 205". Yeah Jones cuts at least 15-20 pounds of water to be "205" so in reality he's actually a ripped 220-225. That's a conservative number as well, because he used to cut more and was 225-230 range.

Compared to Stipe's last fight, last weekend, Jones is virtually the same size weight wise. I do think Stipe has a bigger frame for sure, but I also think Jones is capable of adding mass (yes he has stick legs, so do many NBA builds like Paul George for example). He's already proven this and has walked around pretty lean at 235-240...probably on something though.

I also disagree with the whole "Jones only fought bloated MWs and has a weak resume'" that's just inaccurate. Yes he fought Belfort and Sonnen as late replacements, two literal MWs. Santos was a MW, a massive one and moved to LHW. But he beat Shogun, Rampage, eviscerated Bader and Machida, Bonnar, Janitor, etc early on in his career.

It's not like Gus was a MW, he destroyed him in the 2nd fight. He finished DC in the 2nd fight and clearly beat him in a competitive fight during the 1st. Reyes, I think he lost that one but it was still very competitive/close at the end of the day. I think you're revising Jones' career there a lot.

 

[WHITE ANDERSON]

honest question:

why would beating jones be a bigger accomplishment than beating francis?

jones = no wins at HW
just because he used to be good at LHW doesn't mean he's good at HW

francis = 4 fight win streak at HW all by stoppage

so why would a win over someone who has never fought in the weightclass count more than a win over a guy who is a top contender?

 

[No Skill Gap]

honest question:

why would beating jones be a bigger accomplishment than beating francis?

jones = no wins at HW
just because he used to be good at LHW doesn't mean he's good at HW

francis = 4 fight win streak at HW all by stoppage

so why would a win over someone who has never fought in the weightclass count more than a win over a guy who is a top contender?

Jones is the literal GOAT of the sport or 2nd-5th at worst, ever.

Ngannou is maybe top 50?

I just don't understand the delusional thinking and lack of logic around Ngannou. He's good, he could very well win the title and beat anyone at HW, but he's already lost decisively and dominantly 50-44 across all three cards to Stipe, and lost to Lewis after that in a terrible fight. Are you seriously asking why Jon Fucking Jones is a better win than Francis Ngannou for Stipe? Not only a guy Stipe has already beat, but a guy who's top 50-60 all time at best versus a guy many considered number 1 ever to do this.

Sorry my last reply not trying to spam it but I just don't get it. Also Ngannou is probably not even top 70 if you really went through it based on resume'

 

[SeattleFightFan]

I completely agree with TS and completely disagree with you.

I'm sure you're not the only one

 

[PitDoggMMA]

Well for your post, I liked it because I couldn't agree more with the first two lines. Beyond that I think you're very off regarding Jones.

Once instance is "a very ripped 205". Yeah Jones cuts at least 15-20 pounds of water to be "205" so in reality he's actually a ripped 220-225. That's a conservative number as well, because he used to cut more and was 225-230 range.

Compared to Stipe's last fight, last weekend, Jones is virtually the same size weight wise. I do think Stipe has a bigger frame for sure, but I also think Jones is capable of adding mass (yes he has stick legs, so do many NBA builds like Paul George for example). He's already proven this and has walked around pretty lean at 235-240...probably on something though.

I also disagree with the whole "Jones only fought bloated MWs and has a weak resume'" that's just inaccurate. Yes he fought Belfort and Sonnen as late replacements, two literal MWs. Santos was a MW, a massive one and moved to LHW. But he beat Shogun, Rampage, eviscerated Bader and Machida, Bonnar, Janitor, etc early on in his career.

It's not like Gus was a MW, he destroyed him in the 2nd fight. He finished DC in the 2nd fight and clearly beat him in a competitive fight during the 1st. Reyes, I think he lost that one but it was still very competitive/close at the end of the day. I think you're revising Jones' career there a lot.

It's okay that we disagree on some points.

It is probably all a moot point, because I don't think Jones will actually ever have the balls to face Stipe. Again, if I am wrong in this regard (and if they do face each other), then Jon Jones will get exploited as being a bully his entire career, always facing smaller men "coming up" to face him.

Should Jones have the cajones to actually face Stipe, then you will see Jones backpedaling the whole time, failing to dominate in striking, failing to dominate in body strength, and failing to dominate on the ground.

Another thing to note is that, flimsy skinny legs only serve a fighter with they're larger, and moving forward.
Skinny-Legged fighters always fail when they have to back-up under serious pressure, especially late.

If Jones doesn't get finished in Rounds 3-5, then he will lose by 3-4 rounds to maybe 1 round to his credit.

If Jones wins a single round in his favor, it will only be the first, just because it's a feeling-out process.

His weak physicality will manifest immediately after that. Remember, this is a guy who backpedals to fat middleweights.

Stipe is not fat, and he has every bit as much the killer instinct is Jon Jones does, with a better KO percentage record, at a MUCH larger (yet still-athletic) weight.

Mark my words.

 

[Deleted member 579908]

First of all, Jones will never fight in HW.
Second, even if Stipe beats Jones people(haters) will say "Stipe won a LHW, is normal."
Third, even if Stipe beats Ngano again, people will say
"Stipe already beat him, doesn't mean much"
"Ngano tired himself".
So well.... As Bones will never fight Stipe, this whole thread and replies are very useless...

 

[SeattleFightFan]

Lol, this thread is barely 20min old and the ngannou butthurt is already epic

Why did you add my post and "Ngannout butthurt" in the same sentence?

I suggest that Dana doesn't give in to very many fighters who start negotiating hard. So far Jones hasn't had much luck on that front. Do we think suddenly he will?

And yes, usually a guy that gets 4 KO's in a few minutes has earned his way to the #1 contender. This isn't a Ngannou specific situation. This is pretty common, standard.

I'm not really a Ngannou fan. Nor a Stipe fan. So project your insecurities elsewhere, son.

 

[mjfan23]

First of all, Jones will never fight in HW.
Second, even if Stipe beats Jones people(haters) will say "Stipe won a LHW, is normal."
Third, even if Stipe beats Ngano again, people will say
"Stipe already beat him, doesn't mean much"
"Ngano tired himself".
So well.... As Bones will never fight Stipe, this whole thread and replies are very useless...

You know the script well very well. Must be a silva fan they used same logic to dismiss the better fighter (GSP).

 

[mjfan23]

Lol, this thread is barely 20min old and the ngannou butthurt is already epic

Dude where’s the finish? Did Stipe not finish that punching bag he’s throwing undefended strikes on? Please tell me our Hw champ ain’t that pillowfisted

 

[Deleted member 579908]

You know the script well very well. Must be a silva fan they used same logic to dismiss the better fighter (GSP).

Jesus... Will you please stop? Maybe I should change my av, because with this av, you GSP fanboys always come up from nowhere, and starts discrediting Anderson without any context....
This is a thread about Stipe&Jones, why don't you stop bullying me and actually make a reply about the topic please?

 

[SeattleFightFan]

Not sure what you're talking about.

Yes, I realized Jones will likely not have the nut sack to actually face a man bigger than he is. Jones has enjoyed in entire career facing smaller men.

This is why I never rate Jones very high in any pound-for-pound status. (If Jones managed to beat Stipe, I would obviously change this opinion, but I would bet $100 to a doughnut this won't happen.)

If Jones does have the cajones to face Stipe, he will get overmatched & overpowered on every level.

His skinny, flimsy legs, and his entire career have been nurtured around smaller, weaker, weaker-willed men.

He will be outclassed in every one of these regards if he faces Stipe.

I wasn't talking about who might win. I was talking about who should get the next title shot.

I'll be content if Jones doesn't. I'll be even more content if he takes a HW fight in the interim. We can call it a warm-up, or a #1 contender fight, I don't care which. Or, he can wait it out and he probably gets it.

But frankly yes, I'm against a guy becoming the auto #1 contender simply because he tweeted out that he's ready to be the #1 contender. AND, I have little faith that he and Dana are suddenly going to find a happy middle ground in their negotiations (but hey, maybe I'm wrong there. Maybe Dana will suddenly pay him double, whereas a few months ago he flow out said no fucking way).

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Well for your post, I liked it because I couldn't agree more with the first two lines. Beyond that I think you're very off regarding Jones.

Once instance is "a very ripped 205". Yeah Jones cuts at least 15-20 pounds of water to be "205" so in reality he's actually a ripped 220-225. That's a conservative number as well, because he used to cut more and was 225-230 range.

Compared to Stipe's last fight, last weekend, Jones is virtually the same size weight wise. I do think Stipe has a bigger frame for sure, but I also think Jones is capable of adding mass (yes he has stick legs, so do many NBA builds like Paul George for example). He's already proven this and has walked around pretty lean at 235-240...probably on something though.

I also disagree with the whole "Jones only fought bloated MWs and has a weak resume'" that's just inaccurate. Yes he fought Belfort and Sonnen as late replacements, two literal MWs. Santos was a MW, a massive one and moved to LHW. But he beat Shogun, Rampage, eviscerated Bader and Machida, Bonnar, Janitor, etc early on in his career.

It's not like Gus was a MW, he destroyed him in the 2nd fight. He finished DC in the 2nd fight and clearly beat him in a competitive fight during the 1st. Reyes, I think he lost that one but it was still very competitive/close at the end of the day. I think you're revising Jones' career there a lot.

This whole post!!!

Also love the fact you mentioned Jon cuts from 220-225 to 205.
Stipe doesn't cut weight. He just gets in fight shape. So what he weighs on the scales is what he really is going to weigh in the cage (give or take a few pounds).
Jon rehydrates back a lot of weight. In the DC rematch, both DC and Jon were over 230 pounds in the cage.

So realistically there's a chance that there won't be a major with difference between the two of them.

 

[TysonandKhabib]

Lol, this thread is barely 20min old and the ngannou butthurt is already epic

So Francis should never get a chance to do better?

 

[Final Say]

Why did you add my post and "Ngannout butthurt" in the same sentence?

I suggest that Dana doesn't give in to very many fighters who start negotiating hard. So far Jones hasn't had much luck on that front. Do we think suddenly he will?

And yes, usually a guy that gets 4 KO's in a few minutes has earned his way to the #1 contender. This isn't a Ngannou specific situation. This is pretty common, standard.

I'm not really a Ngannou fan. Nor a Stipe fan. So project your insecurities elsewhere, son.

You don’t see the logic in putting 2 long standing, all time great champions in a super fight for the belt before the number one contender in the weight class?

For the record, I’m not exactly sure who’s more likely to beat stipe although I lean toward jones.

 

[Fergelmince]

Dude where’s the finish? Did Stipe not finish that punching bag he’s throwing undefended strikes on? Please tell me our Hw champ ain’t that pillowfisted

He can't even beat Lewis, LMAO!!!