The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[shincheckin]

Wrestlers and mma guys think of it as neck wrestling

 

[AndyMaBobs]

That doesn't refute his point, the naming in the vids are for SEO purposes, aka people looking it up on YT. Nobody in the gym says "okay guys time to thai clinch" its just "clinching"

Yes it refutes his point because whatever the word for it in Thai is it's not the word he is using. And that is the only truly legit term.

https://www.muay-thai-guy.com/blog/clinching-for-muay-thai

For English translations, "clinch" is accurate also. And especially since we are talking about in the context of MMA not pure MT where it will need to be adapted anyway, referring to it as the "Thai Clinch" is probably more correct as it is just one way of clinching but unique to that art but the adjustment would be different for MMA.

Nope. @j123 and @shincheckin are correct. It's just clinching OR the correct Thai term is chap kho, or neck wrestling. Thai clinch is something guys who don't know anything about Muay Thai say.

Also...

hahahahahaha you literally linked an article that I FUCKING WROTE to try to prove ME wrong. At NO point in that article, do I refer to it as 'the muay thai clinch' - the only part of it that says Muay Thai Clinch is the title, which is literally written BY the editor (who doesn't know Muay Thai) for SEO purposes.

Fucking hell, you are bad at this.

 

[TheMaster]

Nope. @j123 and @shincheckin are correct. It's just clinching OR the correct Thai term is chap kho, or neck wrestling. Thai clinch is something guys who don't know anything about Muay Thai say.

Also...

hahahahahaha you literally linked an article that I FUCKING WROTE to try to prove ME wrong. At NO point in that article, do I refer to it as 'the muay thai clinch' - the only part of it that says Muay Thai Clinch is the title, which is literally written BY the editor (who doesn't know Muay Thai) for SEO purposes.

Fucking hell, you are bad at this.

Then that makes you sound even dumber, sorry.
In MMA, it's commonly called the Thai clinch. Also if 'neck wrestling' is accurate as a translation that's also good. That's because there are multiple ways to clinch in MMA if you didn't realize, collar and elbow ties, Judo type clinching, over and under hooks etc.
To clinch with the intention of throwing knees, elbows or doing thai style sweeps it can be called "Thai Clinch". I don't give a damn what you want to call it I don't train MT and most who have grappled from other sports will call it that in MMA.
Calling it 'clinch' may be in your own sport of MT but trust me, Judoka and wrestlers won't let you just call that 'clinching'.

Also- your editor is right, since this isn't a MT audience.

Why must you make simple points seem so unecessarily complicated?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Then that makes you sound even dumber, sorry.
In MMA, it's called the Thai clinch or as has been said sometimes 'neck wrestling'. That's because there are multiple ways to clinch in MMA if you didn't realize, collar and elbow ties, Judo type over under hooks etc.
To clinch with the intention of throwing knees, elbows or doing thai style sweeps it can be called "Thai Clinch". I don't give a damn what you want to call it I don't train MT and most who have grappled from other sports will call it that.
Calling it 'clinch' may be in your own sport of MT but trust me, Judoka and wrestlers won't let you just call that 'clinching'.

Also- your editor is right, since this isn't a MT forum or audience.

Why must you make simple points seem so unecessarily complicated?

No, it means you just didn't read the article.

And yes, you didn't have to point out that you don't train Muay Thai, the fact that everyone agrees here that you've been wrong every step of the way on it speaks volumes. Stay safe kid.

 

[TheMaster]

No, it means you just didn't read the article.

And yes, you didn't have to point out that you don't train Muay Thai, the fact that everyone agrees here that you've been wrong every step of the way on it speaks volumes. Stay safe kid.

Lol, contact the editor then sunshine so your articles don't make you sound confused later...
Collar tie in Thai boxing is NOT the same as collar tie in collar and elbow wrestling, Judo etc, stance is different and so is intention.
If you want to just call it all 'clinch' that's up to you.
Calling the position 'Thai clinch' or 'Thai plum' works for me and for many since the intent of the clinches and use are different as trained in different styles.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Lol, contact the editor then sunshine so your articles don't make you sound confused later...
Collar tie in Thai boxing is NOT the same as collar tie in collar and elbow wrestling, Judo etc, stance is different and so is intention.
If you want to just call it all 'clinch' that's up to you.
Calling the position 'Thai clinch' or 'Thai plum' works for me and for many since the intent of the clinches and use are different as trained in different styles.

The only one confused is you, me + the editor don't contradict each other, I just don't use the noob term that he has to use because he's got to advertise the article to you.

 

[TheMaster]

The one one confused is you, me + the editor don't contradict each other, I just don't use the noob term that he has to use because he's got to advertise the article to you.

So is that an agreement or disagreement that the collar and elbow tie in wrestling to throw someone is very different than in the Thai plum?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

So is that an agreement or disagreement that the collar and elbow tie in wrestling to throw someone is very different than in the Thai plum?

Collar and elbow wrestling, wing chun, fuck me you really are living in the 19th century.

Clinch refers to stand up grappling. There is no meaningful difference. Three different marital arts here, they are all in the same position

Right now any of those men in those images can throw an elbow, or a knee, or adjust and go for a throw. Clinching is clinching and you approach clinching based on your ruleset.

The reason I called you out was because you said that you wouldn't 'muay thai clinch on the street'. It's verbiage that literally only noobs who know nothing about Muay Thai use. The purpose was to call out your ignorance. If you say 'you wouldn't muay thai clinch on the streets' you may as well be saying 'don't clinch on the streets at all' because clinching is clinching. If I clinch you on the street, it doesn't matter whether I elbow you in the face, knee you or throw you, the chance of me getting stabbed is all the same, because I am literally grabbing hold of you.

Given that you have a hard time understanding that Ferguson and Karuhat's parries into elbows are the same thing, or that the wing chun fighter you sent us was just using dirty boxing he could have used literally anywhere, it doesn't shock me that this needs explaining to you.

Low level guys seem to think of martial arts as software, you can't play Tekken and Call of Duty at the same time. It's nonsense, you fundamentally have techniques that work and techniques that don't, and if two styles allow for clinching, they will develop the same skills and holds. You simply adjust to the hierachy of viable or legal techniques in your style. It's just clinching, any grappler worth their salt will tell you this. It's what ADCC is built on today.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Then why bother going for the niche of it then?

If the the top creme of the crop only trains a certain way and it ends up being basically generic MMA/KB, why bother looking aside from having a love for the culture of it? If we are looking at just pure pragmatic competing and fighting, hundreds of modern combat sport places are available everywhere (major city or small town); To find the rare golden goose WC gym(s) that have a similar style and approach to modern stuff means the prices will be higher than normal.

So.... why do all that effort researching where these unique rare group of WC gyms are, when the pages 1-5 on google has 10-50 gyms of boxing, KB, MT, and MMA available and for standard market prices?

Essentially, the thread ended here. There's nothing else to discuss.

 

[shincheckin]

You could probably argue it either way. But the short answer is yes. As the intent behind the 2 are different things. If by throw, you mean slam, or some kind of way to take your opponent to the ground. Usually we see over unders or double unders. Double unders is not a good position to be in, in muay thai btw.

Muay thai clinch is different as you can't take them down. You can only sweep or trip them. You cannot throw them, I think a better fitting word would be swing. You can off balance them and control them.

The clinch is a whole separate art in itself, it's a lot more than just the plum position. The intricacies of the clinch, and transitioning from clinch to hand traps to elbows is the part of muay thai where some hand trapping aspects of wing Chun would carry over. This is also where if a nak muay had the "sensitivity" of a well trained WC guy, he would excel in this area.

 

[TheMaster]

Collar and elbow wrestling, wing chun, fuck me you really are living in the 19th century.

Clinch refers to stand up grappling. There is no meaningful difference. Three different marital arts here, they are all in the same position

Right now any of those men in those images can throw an elbow, or a knee, or adjust and go for a throw. Clinching is clinching and you approach clinching based on your ruleset.

The reason I called you out was because you said that you wouldn't 'muay thai clinch on the street'. It's verbiage that literally only noobs who know nothing about Muay Thai use. The purpose was to call out your ignorance. If you say 'you wouldn't muay thai clinch on the streets' you may as well be saying 'don't clinch on the streets at all' because clinching is clinching. If I clinch you on the street, it doesn't matter whether I elbow you in the face, knee you or throw you, the chance of me getting stabbed is all the same, because I am literally grabbing hold of you.

Given that you have a hard time understanding that Ferguson and Karuhat's parries into elbows are the same thing, or that the wing chun fighter you sent us was just using dirty boxing he could have used literally anywhere, it doesn't shock me that this needs explaining to you.

Low level guys seem to think of martial arts as software, you can't play Tekken and Call of Duty at the same time. It's nonsense, you fundamentally have techniques that work and techniques that don't, and if two styles allow for clinching, they will develop the same skills and holds. You simply adjust to the hierachy of viable or legal techniques in your style. It's just clinching, any grappler worth their salt will tell you this. It's what ADCC is built on today.

You're giving a long-winded descripion to basically say you never trained Judo, as there is no way in hell a Judoka would ever call a Thai plum as 'the same position ' as a Judo collar grip or tie and I am calling you out for claiming it.

You could probably argue it either way. But the short answer is yes. As the intent behind the 2 are different things. If by throw, you mean slam, or some kind of way to take your opponent to the ground. Usually we see over unders or double unders. Double unders is not a good position to be in, in muay thai btw.

Muay thai clinch is different as you can't take them down. You can only sweep or trip them. You cannot throw them, I think a better fitting word would be swing. You can off balance them and control them.

The clinch is a whole separate art in itself, it's a lot more than just the plum position. The intricacies of the clinch, and transitioning from clinch to hand traps to elbows is the part of muay thai where some hand trapping aspects of wing Chun would carry over. This is also where if a nak muay had the "sensitivity" of a well trained WC guy, he would excel in this area.

Yes, I agree and this is just the point I am making. Although they superficially look the same it is the intention and training behind it that makes all the difference.

A Judo collar tie may look the same upperbody position as forms of a Thai plum but that doesn't mean they are the same since use of energy is different.
The feet are also generally differently placed as well since you can't really be thrown in MT you can afford to come in closer with the feet so set up knees.

In Judo, or in MMA it would be different usually you would be more leaning in with legs further back and you might momentarily go for a more close range Thai plum to attack but not stay in the position as long.

So differetiating them in MMA would be common sense especially if coming from a grappling background without strikes which is the main purpose of Thai plum.

I also agree with you and can appreciate the sensitivity that some MT guys show in close and with the crossover to handtrapping.
Still, unless they start actually doing WC type chi sau it will be limited. Maybe an idea, or would that be heresy to start doing a form of the core WC training?

Its likely to be rulesets or lack of that determine how these forms develop in different directions.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You could probably argue it either way. But the short answer is yes. As the intent behind the 2 are different things. If by throw, you mean slam, or some kind of way to take your opponent to the ground. Usually we see over unders or double unders. Double unders is not a good position to be in, in muay thai btw.

Muay thai clinch is different as you can't take them down. You can only sweep or trip them. You cannot throw them, I think a better fitting word would be swing. You can off balance them and control them.

The clinch is a whole separate art in itself, it's a lot more than just the plum position. The intricacies of the clinch, and transitioning from clinch to hand traps to elbows is the part of muay thai where some hand trapping aspects of wing Chun would carry over. This is also where if a nak muay had the "sensitivity" of a well trained WC guy, he would excel in this area.

So I realise you're not arguing in favour of this, but I tend to think that 'sensitivity' is not a thing that actually exists. I don't think Muangthai is lacking in sensitivity with his clinch and trap work that TheMaster has, put it that way

Clinch is position, and your chosen techniques are gonna depend, but as far as actually clinching goes, a wrestler isn't going to be lost and confused with the positions of muay thai - tho he won't be used to finding elbows

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You're giving a long-winded descripion to basically say you never trained Judo, as there is no way in hell a Judoka would ever call a Thai plum as 'the same position ' as a Judo collar grip or tie and I am calling you out for claiming it.

I've trained in judo and sambo, sambo more so, with members of the British team. This once again is something you'd know if you didn't only post about wing chun. And once again, you not understanding anything anyone else is telling you. How have you spent 20 years on this forum and still lack basic reading comprehension.

What are you defining at 'Thai plum'. Can they all throw an elbow or a knee from that position? Yes or no. I KNOW that I can throw from that position because I have literally done it, using the same principles I learned in Muay Thai when I started sambo, the difference was that I had to adjust the elbow strike to be a forearm, application is the same. You don't know Muay Thai, so you don't see how they are using the same principles.

That's enough forum silliness for one day

 

[TheMaster]

I've trained in judo and sambo, sambo more so, with members of the British team. This once again is something you'd know if you didn't only post about wing chun. And once again, you not understanding anything anyone else is telling you. How have you spent 20 years on this forum and still lack basic reading comprehension.

What are you defining at 'Thai plum'. Can they all throw an elbow or a knee from that position? Yes or no. I KNOW that I can throw from that position because I have literally done it, using the same principles I learned in Muay Thai when I started sambo, the difference was that I had to adjust the elbow strike to be a forearm, application is the same. You don't know Muay Thai, so you don't see how they are using the same principles.

That's enough forum silliness for one day

I'm calling the Thai plum the position of a double collar tie with repeated alternate knees thrown, a position that doesn't occur in Judo or Sambo that marks it as being part of Muay Thai. And the Thai clinch the more broad position with maybe single or double collar tie.

Obviously the whole idea of cross training is to develop skills and see links between positions where you wouldn't previously and add attacks etc.

Still, the fundamentals don't change.
If you entered a classic Thai plum you would be using MT skills at that time.
This is totally different from having a more legs back leaning in collar tie in Judo and quickly turning into a hip throw although the strarting positions may be similar.

In fact I am in agreement with the general premise you are making about cross training, since what drew me to WC was the realization I could punch, palm or elbow strike as well as control grip fighting much better with chi sau skills from typical Judo grip or tie positions as well as entry range to those positions.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

A major diffence that hasnt been mentioned is grips. The reason basic blast doubles are less prevalent in judo than is wrestling is because its because is because if i grab a handfull of coller arm stiff arm its alot more difficult for the oppo to penetrate.
Clinch in boxing gloves with no gi and clinch, is very diffent with free hands and a gi. Same way if i roll in Gi i go collar and sleeve grips for control, in nogi i go for head control and kimura grips. Doesnt mean i'm doing two different things, im just adapting my game to whats available.

The other main thing is rule sets. The reason you go "cup to cup" in MT,is to take away the space to knee. Because im close, that opens me up to hip tosses and hook sweeps (inside/outside leg reaps). All outlawed in MT so no problem.

Now look at Judo. Generally you want to have a sleeve or a collar grip with your hips back and low. This position means i can punch you in the face with the side you have the coller grip, or jack up your arm with the sleave grip and drill you with kicks and knees to the body. Thats ok though, because they are all banned.

I dont know alot about sambo, but it seems that they tend to with two sleeve grips, which make sense as you can block strikes from the hands and "unbalance" to stop knees. Again though, this wouldn't work as well with nogi as you would have you over hook the arms rather than grip, which brings us right back to MT.........

 

[NAKMUAY18]

I'm calling the Thai plum the position of a double collar tie with repeated alternate knees thrown, a position that doesn't occur in Judo or Sambo that marks it as being part of Muay Thai. And the Thai clinch the more broad position with maybe single or double collar tie.

Obviously the whole idea of cross training is to develop skills and see links between positions where you wouldn't previously and add attacks etc.

Still, the fundamentals don't change.
If you entered a classic Thai plum you would be using MT skills at that time.
This is totally different from having a more legs back leaning in collar tie in Judo and quickly turning into a hip throw although the strarting positions may be similar.

In fact I am in agreement with the general premise you are making about cross training, since what drew me to WC was the realization I could punch, palm or elbow strike as well as control grip fighting much better with chi sau skills from typical Judo grip or tie positions as well as entry range to those positions.

What you are calling the Thai Plum is double Russian coller tie, you can use it to stop a shot or go for a snapdown. Its a ppsition to transit through rather that a spot to hang out. This should be the same it MT. In the "plum" you should he swinging your oppo around and knee8ng, not holding and resting

 

[Woldog]

What I've learned from this thread so far is that every single martial art is WC.
And that when you can't defend WC as a martial art you just drop the Judo card.

 

[j123]

What I've learned from this thread so far is that every single martial art is WC.
And that when you can't defend WC as a martial art you just drop the Judo card.

Judo confirmed as race card

 

[TheMaster]

A major diffence that hasnt been mentioned is grips. The reason basic blast doubles are less prevalent in judo than is wrestling is because its because is because if i grab a handfull of coller arm stiff arm its alot more difficult for the oppo to penetrate.
Clinch in boxing gloves with no gi and clinch, is very diffent with free hands and a gi. Same way if i roll in Gi i go collar and sleeve grips for control, in nogi i go for head control and kimura grips. Doesnt mean i'm doing two different things, im just adapting my game to whats available.

The other main thing is rule sets. The reason you go "cup to cup" in MT,is to take away the space to knee. Because im close, that opens me up to hip tosses and hook sweeps (inside/outside leg reaps). All outlawed in MT so no problem.

Now look at Judo. Generally you want to have a sleeve or a collar grip with your hips back and low. This position means i can punch you in the face with the side you have the coller grip, or jack up your arm with the sleave grip and drill you with kicks and knees to the body. Thats ok though, because they are all banned.

Yes, but the rule sets make all the difference. Probably a reason we don't see any high level MT fighters in MMA is because as it is practiced it is not realistic when you add grappling. Being in close like that to knee or 'swing and knee' will get you foot swept or thrown as you mentioned.

Although with Judo grip you can hit them if strikes are allowed, the position is much more stable than a 'thai clinch'. You're not getting thrown or footswept, and you can keep moving and even handfighting to stop being punched. You can also of course punch yourself also, and as we have seen now numerous occasions in BK, grapplers who have learned to punch tend to outstrike strikers from clinch positions. This is because they can control balance better and offset the base of a striker to be able to throw punches while setting up opportunities to hit.

A good example of this is from a BK fight last night where Barnett used this strategy to bust up Rozalski.


Roz was catching him at range, but Barnett would use the opening to clinch and then dirty box and wrestle to outland him despite being the inferior striker and this worked.
Though there were no knees, elbows allowed in this one.
This format would actually be ideal for a well trained WC or MT guy to do well in.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yes, but the rule sets make all the difference. Probably a reason we don't see any high level MT fighters in MMA is because as it is practiced it is not realistic when you add grappling. Being in close like that to knee or 'swing and knee' will get you foot swept or thrown as you me mentioned.

Although with Judo grip you can hit them if strikes are allowed, the position is much more stable than a 'thai clinch'. You're not getting thrown or footswept, and you can keep moving and even handfighting to stop being punched. You can also course punch yourself also, and as we have seen now numerous occasions in BK, grapplers tend to outstrike strikers from clinch positions. This is because they can control balance better and offset the base of a striker to be able to throw while setting up opportunities to hit.

A good example of this is from a BK fight last night where Barnett used this strategy to bust up Rozalski.
Roz was catching him at range, but Barnett would use the opening to clinch and then dirty box and wrestle to outland him despite being the inferior striker and this worked.
Though there were no knees, elbows allowed in this one.
This format would actually be ideal for a well trained WC or MT guy to do well in.

This isn't really true either.

We didn't see high level muay thai fighters in MMA because MMA was illegal in Thailand for a long time. We do see more top level Thai's in MMA nowadays. Rambaa Somdet is the consensus best 115lb guy, which isn't an especially deep division, but what can you do with guys that small.

Now we see a handful of them in ONE FC, but at the moment Thailand is still coming up in MMA, the Thai's that are competing in MMA tend to be older. I don't know that Thailand will ever be a huge nation for MMA, but it's not a matter of muay thai not working.

Alistair Overeem, Matt Brown and Demetrious Johnson all made extensive use of muay thai style knees, elbows and sweeps in the clinch and used them to dominate opponents.