The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[Woldog]

You would come away humbled when you realise what he can do to you at close range with minimal effort or muscular force, not due to any history unless you were interested in that.

That's fair enough. I'm not knocking it by any means, I just have my doubts at it being effective against someone who can control the distance of the fight. The history and shit like kata's I couldn't careless about. Hence why I got kicked out of TKD after two months and told to go back to boxing when I was 12.

Isn't Jeet Kune Do supposed to me maximum power with minimal effort? How did Jeet Kune Do differ from WC? There is a WC school in my city, but given I used to play rugby with the instructors I'm not sure about how high quality they'd be or if they even spar.

 

[shincheckin]

Whatever, you do you. Shin 'check, not cash' In.
Or is that Shin 'everyones cashing in with Mcdojos I want my piece of the pie' check- not cash in.

Wang Chun will definitely be added to my McDojo. Where it rightfully belongs!!

Wang Chun will be right after my 5 year old kinder karate philosophy class.

I'm a self proclaimed WC master. Achieved in 1 week. All I had to do was send my prime pupil Khan to mercilessly defeat a few WC masters in a telephone booth in teh streetz.

I taught him the ancient secret technique "napkin hands" and the philosophy behind it, which easily defeats WC "sticky hands " stay tuned as "sanitary wipe" hands technique will be released shortly. I just need to complete my spiritual journey in the bamboo forest and get philosophical with crouching tiger first atop mt bing bang wala wala bing bang.

 

[Dece]

Almost all WC is Ip Man lineage ultimately. The guy is a hobbyist because he hasn't incorporated proper training methods to be able to compete at even amateur level in MMA.
So if you want to look at him as an example of how 'wc doesnt work and xu xiadong beat him up' sorry that story is old and irrelevant now.
All that proved was that fighters that spar and are conditioned beat fighters who are not.

WC done with proper training and sparring can hold its own with boxing,Muay thai or whatever. U can tell your buddies that now, the next time their trying to have a laugh at kungfu.

What a surprise, delusional as usual.

 

[TheMaster]

What a surprise, delusional as usual.

It doesn't matter what you think about it.
There is enough evidence.
You can pick another obscure art to have a laugh about now.

 

[j123]

Lets send wc guy to next mortal kombat tournament when dark realm comes knocking

Homeless chun wins MK tournament

 

[TheMaster]

That's fair enough. I'm not knocking it by any means, I just have my doubts at it being effective against someone who can control the distance of the fight. The history and shit like kata's I couldn't careless about. Hence why I got kicked out of TKD after two months and told to go back to boxing when I was 12.

Isn't Jeet Kune Do supposed to me maximum power with minimal effort? How did Jeet Kune Do differ from WC? There is a WC school in my city, but given I used to play rugby with the instructors I'm not sure about how high quality they'd be or if they even spar.

If you let me know what city you're in I can have a look if there's any decent Wing Chun there.

Jeet Kun Do was Bruce's early vision of mma although not for ring fighting.
It has a WC base and focus also on efficiency but integrates boxing, kickboxing, Judo etc.
But this was a time when martial arts were not nearly so well known and were more secretive. Bruce learned only the first two of the three empty hand forms and the first 1/3 of the wooden dummy set and Yip Man refused to teach him any more. So he had not mastered the art when he began cross training and forming his own method.

Traditional Wing Chun is only close range so I would say not complete. But the concepts can be extended to medium range. You are right that if someone controls the range better and keeps them on the outside it makes it hard for them.
But to fight a good WC guy on the inside especially with all strikes allowed would be a nightmarish violent experience. If someone was also high level WC I wouldn't go near them even to try to take them down but rather would try to knock them out on the outside or kick and keep good range. That is their strength so why fight to it?

The debate about less rules goes back to the earliest days of the UFC.
The UFC 5 superfight was actually supposed to be between Royce and a guy called Emin Boztepe, a WC guy with a wrestling background.
I'm not a fan of Boztepe or his way of doing WC but the guy can fight for sure. In fact Royce and Rorion challenged him to fight in the UFC but he refused and said he would accept but only if it must be no rules at all without exception which is what NHB was advertised as. The Gracie's refused.
I include the interview here where he talks about it for historical interest.



Boztepes teacher was this guy, who was actually a catch wrestler who studied under a later student of Ip Man.



Now, fact is in a true no rules fight against a self defense expert you would have to be on crack to accept since the possibility of getting maimed is high even in victory I don't care how many belts you have in the ring.

Now we can say that if it works it should work in combat sport without having to rely on disabling strikes which I agree which is why I would like to see wc in mma.
But I'm sensible enough to know the limits of it and that there is an unknown variable without restrictions which we can't and don't need to test.
So this is the grey area that traditional Wing Chun, Karate and some Chinese arts hover in which is why people get touchy and ease the tension by cracking jokes.
But at the same time we can all improve by embracing modern training methods and even just light sparring is a must to able to use it no matter the environment.

 

[Woldog]

If you let me know what city you're in I can have a look if there's any decent Wing Chun there.

Jeet Kun Do was Bruce's early vision of mma although not for ring fighting.
It has a WC base and focus also on efficiency but integrates boxing, kickboxing, Judo etc.
But this was a time when martial arts were not nearly so well known and were more secretive. Bruce learned only the first two of the three empty hand forms and the first 1/3 of the wooden dummy set and Yip Man refused to teach him any more. So he had not mastered the art when he began cross training and forming his own method.

Traditional Wing Chun is only close range so I would say not complete. But the concepts can be extended to medium range. You are right that if someone controls the range better and keeps them on the outside it makes it hard for them.
But to fight a good WC guy on the inside especially with all strikes allowed would be a nightmarish violent experience. If someone was also high level WC I wouldn't go near them even to try to take them down but rather would try to knock them out on the outside or kick and keep good range. That is their strength so why fight to it?

The debate about less rules goes back to the earliest days of the UFC.
The UFC 5 superfight was actually supposed to be between Royce and a guy called Emin Boztepe, a WC guy with a wrestling background.
I'm not a fan of Boztepe at all or his way of doing WC but the guy can fight for sure. In fact Royce and Rorion challenged him to fight in the UFC but he refused and said he would accept but only if it must be no rules at all without exception which is what NHB was advertised as. The Gracie's refused.
I include the interview here where he talks about it for historical interest.



Boztepes teacher was this guy, who was actually a catch wrestler who studied under a later student of Ip Man.

View attachment 829852

Now, fact is in a true no rules fight against a self defense expert you would have to be on crack to accept since the possibility of getting maimed is high even in victory I don't care how many belts you have in the ring.

Now we can say that if it works it should work in combat sport without having to rely on disabling strikes which I agree which is why I would like to see wc in mma.
But I'm sensible enough to know the limits of it and that there is an unknown variable without restrictions which we can't and don't need to test.
So this is the grey area that traditional Wing Chun, Karate and some Chinese arts hover in which is why people get touchy and ease the tension by cracking jokes.
But at the same time we can all improve by embracing modern training methods and even just light sparring is a must to able to use it no matter the environment.

Brisbane is close to me.

You might find this interesting if you know who he is.
But this guy was a client of ours at work for about 20 years. My dad always mentioned him and I assumed he was just talking shit about how good he was until I looked him up. He might be someone you've heard of in Asian Martial arts or he may not be. But he seems like an interesting fellow, I never got the chance to meet him, he moved to Sydney about 10 years before I started working there.
I didn't realise that Martial Arts had been here in Australia for that long. I honestly thought they only really came about here in the late 80's early 90's.

https://taekwondo.fandom.com/wiki/Chong_Chul_Rhee

 

[Cole train]

Warms my heart to see two rivals make up

 

[listrahtes]

If you let me know what city you're in I can have a look if there's any decent Wing Chun there.

Jeet Kun Do was Bruce's early vision of mma although not for ring fighting.
It has a WC base and focus also on efficiency but integrates boxing, kickboxing, Judo etc.
But this was a time when martial arts were not nearly so well known and were more secretive. Bruce learned only the first two of the three empty hand forms and the first 1/3 of the wooden dummy set and Yip Man refused to teach him any more. So he had not mastered the art when he began cross training and forming his own method.

Traditional Wing Chun is only close range so I would say not complete. But the concepts can be extended to medium range. You are right that if someone controls the range better and keeps them on the outside it makes it hard for them.
But to fight a good WC guy on the inside especially with all strikes allowed would be a nightmarish violent experience. If someone was also high level WC I wouldn't go near them even to try to take them down but rather would try to knock them out on the outside or kick and keep good range. That is their strength so why fight to it?

The debate about less rules goes back to the earliest days of the UFC.
The UFC 5 superfight was actually supposed to be between Royce and a guy called Emin Boztepe, a WC guy with a wrestling background.
I'm not a fan of Boztepe or his way of doing WC but the guy can fight for sure. In fact Royce and Rorion challenged him to fight in the UFC but he refused and said he would accept but only if it must be no rules at all without exception which is what NHB was advertised as. The Gracie's refused.
I include the interview here where he talks about it for historical interest.



Boztepes teacher was this guy, who was actually a catch wrestler who studied under a later student of Ip Man.

View attachment 829852

Now, fact is in a true no rules fight against a self defense expert you would have to be on crack to accept since the possibility of getting maimed is high even in victory I don't care how many belts you have in the ring.

Now we can say that if it works it should work in combat sport without having to rely on disabling strikes which I agree which is why I would like to see wc in mma.
But I'm sensible enough to know the limits of it and that there is an unknown variable without restrictions which we can't and don't need to test.
So this is the grey area that traditional Wing Chun, Karate and some Chinese arts hover in which is why people get touchy and ease the tension by cracking jokes.
But at the same time we can all improve by embracing modern training methods and even just light sparring is a must to able to use it no matter the environment.

<Lmaoo><Lmaoo> Now you really showed that you are a keyboard warrior. Its all just fantasy talk. I know these people and had quite some interaction. They are from Germany. Oh that is so funny. Kernspecht as a catch wrestler <Lmaoo><Lmaoo> This guy has no athletic or real MA skills AT ALL and always lies his ass of about everything. Regarding himself he also was an instructor at the NATO (Yes the North Atlantic Treaty Organization ). He was a teacher with a knack for esoterics and just a classic unskilled nerd who looked for something easy to market and he found it. Him and Leung startet to give each other higher grades every year like you would eat a popsicle.. He made millions by franchising his EWTO stuff and treating his organisation like the mafia that would destroy anyone daring to leave.

Boztepe was the one guy who was agressive and willing to punch someone. He made his name by punching a 50 year old asthmatic without the poor old guy having any preparation in a brawl so less skilled that it hurt to watch. Emin was so brave that he brought an army of guys with him. Thats all but that alone was enough to make him an enigma in the world of Wing Chun nerds .

Kernspecht is excellent in creating a cult like surrounding and taking every last cent of his pupils. He is literally the worst what martial arts can be. No skills and a manipulative personality without any concerns to use people. He made a cult out of it. The exact opposite of the idea of MMA.

Now, fact is in a true no rules fight against a self defense expert you would have to be on crack to accept since the possibility of getting maimed is high even in victory I don't care how many belts you have in the ring.

Ok this I will save up. This is so delusional . Love it.

Just one example. For a time Kernspecht told his students learning grappling would be stupid because all grapplers will fracture their shoulders sooner or later in training it (dont ask the reason, he just made this up like everything else) and if you understand the principle of WC (meaning giving Kernspecht thousands of dollars) no one would ever be able to get you to the ground. Still he felt the pressure and then sold an Anti Ground Fighting program that consisted of a "grappler" starting to run from 10m across the room with open arms and the WC god side stepping this moron and then punishing him with punches. I was at a demonstration but sadly I was not allowed to film because you can guess how it worked vs someone having even a little bit of experience.

Later on he secretly sent some of his coaches to grappling instructors so that they would be able to deal at least at a beginner level with wrestling attacks. This was not told and not shown to WC students. You can guess why.

Wing Chun is like communism. If it doesnt work someone else is responsible. The theory cant be at fault. So if a WC guy was shown to be incompetent he had not understood the system (even after 20years and being a "master" and still had to learn this perfect system. And if a WC guy would be superior it would always show the superiority of the style. In general vs. untrained guys with fake belts. Thats how they work.

Its kinda sad that all this fake ma stuff is in sherdog stand up section but on the other hand its funny to read these posts.

 

[TheMaster]

I know these people and had quite some interaction. They are from Germany. Oh that is so funny. Kernspecht as a catch wrestler <Lmaoo><Lmaoo> This guy has no athletic or real MA skills AT ALL and always lies his ass of about everything. Regarding himself he also was an instructor at the NATO (Yes the North Atlantic Treaty Organization ). He was a teacher with a knack for esoterics and just a classic unskilled nerd who looked for something easy to market and he found it. Him and Leung startet to give each other higher grades every year like you would eat a popsicle.. He made millions by franchising his EWTO stuff and treating his organisation like the mafia that would destroy anyone daring to leave.

Boztepe was the one guy who was agressive and willing to punch someone. He made his name by punching a 50 year old asthmatic without the poor old guy having any preparation in a brawl so less skilled that it hurt to watch. Emin was so brave that he brought an army of guys with him. Thats all but that alone was enough to make him an enigma in the world of Wing Chun nerds .

Kernspecht is excellent in creating a cult like surrounding and taking every last cent of his pupils. He is literally the worst what martial arts can be. No skills and a manipulative personality without any concerns to use people. He made a cult out of it. The exact opposite of the idea of MMA.



Ok this I will save up. This is so delusional . Love it.

Just one example. For a time Kernspecht told his students learning grappling would be stupid because all grapplers will fracture their shoulders sooner or later in training it (dont ask the reason, he just made this up like everything else) and if you understand the principle of WC (meaning giving Kernspecht thousands of dollars) no one would ever be able to get you to the ground. Still he felt the pressure and then sold an Anti Ground Fighting program that consisted of a "grappler" starting to run from 10m across the room with open arms and the WC god side stepping this moron and then punishing him with punches. I was at a demonstration but sadly I was not allowed to film because you can guess how it worked vs someone having even a little bit of experience.

Later on he secretly sent some of his coaches to grappling instructors so that they would be able to deal at least at a beginner level with wrestling attacks. This was not told and not shown to WC students. You can guess why.

Wing Chun is like communism. If it doesnt work someone else is responsible. The theory cant be at fault. So if a WC guy was shown to be incompetent he had not understood the system (even after 20years and being a "master" and still had to learn this perfect system. And if a WC guy would be superior it would always show the superiority of the style. In general vs. untrained guys with fake belts. Thats how they work.

Its kinda sad that all this fake ma stuff is in sherdog stand up section but on the other hand its funny to read these posts.

So you used to train with them?
Yes, it is the mcdojo of wingchun and a big organization.

It is well known they are a joke wc organisation about money making but Kernspecht personally is legit yes he was a catch wrestler for many years and his own WC skill is legit the fact he chooses to run a mass mcdojo doesn't change this.



Boztepe likewise is a fool I am not endorsing him but the guy can fight. He had also a wrestling background, so I doubt anyone would be having a fun time with him in a no rules fight.

Anyway like I said I include it for history since it was about no rules and though they are low down the list in terms of WC, they are the ones who had interaction with UFC in the earliest days.

As for your comments about them doing grappling in secret...more retarded talk. So you think boxers are going to learn grappling and WC guys are not? It doesn't work like that, I have always said they need grappling to support so they should all train it to be able to control the fight wherever it goes.

 

[listrahtes]

It is well known they are a joke wc organisation about money making but Kernspecht personally is legit yes he was a catch wrestler f

He never was. He lied his ass off about everything. Kernspecht is a pathologic liar. Back then he worked part time jobs at a port and in some backyard trained with friends what we would describe as playing around. He never was a professional at anything in MA. Like I said I have seen quite some "high level" stuff from EWTO and even him.The world is a small place.

. Its amazing to me that people , even after all these years, believe even one word out of his mouth. Nowadays he calls himself Count Keith R. Kernspecht because he bought an old building in Germany.

As for your comments about them doing grappling in secret...more retarded talk. So you think boxers are going to learn grappling and WC guys are not?

You dont get it. Even with all his delusion he realized even someone not trained can bring down his students with ease. What he did was what he always does. He sold a very expensive Anti Ground Fighting program to his students with no benefit at all. Its pure crap and nowadays you wont find it anymore. But secretly he sent his coaches to learn some basic ground skills in and used even MMA coaches. But this was never told the students and never shown. The reasoning is simple and Kernspechts whole business model. Show your students crap , learn something remotely effective and then beat them down in practice with "ease" because you are the master. You need to get the financial implication. To be a Teacher grade in EWTO you have to pay him tens of thousands of dollars. Even as a beginner you will pay thousands of dollars. Its a big money making scheeme.

I am open for anything but with Wing Chun I have years of first hand experience with the people you describe so either you just googled them (which is why I cant take your comment serious) or you are still part of the fantasy. Either way if you live in Germany I am always open for a friendly meet.
I stopped training since Covid sadly but for a friendly meet to play around its enough when this pandemic is gone. Or you could post some legit video of yourself. Nothing fancy just some sparring or live drills were I can see the level of skill

Regarding Boztepe. Kernspechts business model was also to contract street fighters /small time criminals and send them to other martial arts schools and film that. They had no origin in WC but were agressive and muscular. Also if you would leave EWTO he would send you these videos and threaten to visit you with them. He was and is organized like a sect. His early street fighters were Torsten Gruhn and Uwe Müller. When they were not available anymore he found Boztepe. That was the whole reasoning. Kernspecht learned from Baghwan in how to organize this.

This is Emin Boztepe ground fighting with Kernspecht in the background.


This is how EWTO Wing Chun Anti Grappling was sold to students: I had the original videos from EWTO but I think they deleted them. Couldnt find them anymore but maybe I have saved some on my hard drive. Will look when I am at home from work.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Wang Chun will definitely be added to my McDojo. Where it rightfully belongs!!

Wang Chun will be right after my 5 year old kinder karate philosophy class.

I'm a self proclaimed WC master. Achieved in 1 week. All I had to do was send my prime pupil Khan to mercilessly defeat a few WC masters in a telephone booth in teh streetz.

I taught him the ancient secret technique "napkin hands" and the philosophy behind it, which easily defeats WC "sticky hands " stay tuned as "sanitary wipe" hands technique will be released shortly. I just need to complete my spiritual journey in the bamboo forest and get philosophical with crouching tiger first atop mt bing bang wala wala bing bang.

i though though the "philosophy" behind karateigh and wang chan was looking snazzy in pj's and beating people up so you can bang their chicks... must be going to the wrong class.

 

[TheMaster]

He never was. He lied his ass off about everything. Kernspecht is a pathologic liar. Back then he worked part time jobs at a port and in some backyard trained with friends what we would describe as playing around. He never was a professional at anything in MA. Like I said I have seen quite some "high level" stuff from EWTO and even him.The world is a small place.

. Its amazing to me that people , even after all these years, believe even one word out of his mouth. Nowadays he calls himself Count Keith R. Kernspecht because he bought an old building in Germany.



You dont get it. Even with all his delusion he realized even someone not trained can bring down his students with ease. What he did was what he always does. He sold a very expensive Anti Ground Fighting program to his students with no benefit at all. Its pure crap and nowadays you wont find it anymore. But secretly he sent his coaches to learn some basic ground skills in and used even MMA coaches. But this was never told the students and never shown. The reasoning is simple and Kernspechts whole business model. Show your students crap , learn something remotely effective and then beat them down in practice with "ease" because you are the master. You need to get the financial implication. To be a Teacher grade in EWTO you have to pay him tens of thousands of dollars. Even as a beginner you will pay thousands of dollars. Its a big money making scheeme.

I am open for anything but with Wing Chun I have years of first hand experience with the people you describe so either you just googled them (which is why I cant take your comment serious) or you are still part of the fantasy. Either way if you live in Germany I am always open for a friendly meet.
I stopped training since Covid sadly but for a friendly meet to play around its enough when this pandemic is gone. Or you could post some legit video of yourself. Nothing fancy just some sparring or live drills were I can see the level of skill

I also started there and was with them for some time before wising up to the fact they are a money making organization. Yes they follow a pyramid structure so you will pay thousands for rank with them if you want to progress. The training however can give you the basics of wingchun which probably any school can and no more,which is why I moved on to WSL lineage.
You seem to have been turned off from the style altogether due to your experiences with them which is unfortunate.

I have also met Kernspecht before at a seminar when he was in his 60's and was impressed. He was handling guys much younger then him, yes they were not all-out going for it but you could see with the power and control he had that he could be effective and subdue a guy much younger even at that age which is one of the things high level wingchun can give you that few systems can and ironically, one of the things pro level mma or boxing can take away long before that with the cte like we see with Chuck who would get kod by any average untrained 40 or 50 year old now.

So like I said I stand by that he is legit personally even if the organization he runs is a sham.

Several high level martial artists who are also legit have endorsed him and his skills so unless you argue that he bought their endorsement which is possible but unlikely,they have no reason to speak highly of him and train with him if he was not legit.
Geoff Thompson, Jon Bluming the father of Dutch Kickboxing and Gokor Chivichyan have all worked with and endorsed Kernspecht.



These are all notorious no shit guys so would not easily put their names to someone just for $. Of course the actual 'scam' once again is that the usual training they do and the organisation as a whole will not get you to his level so by endorsing Kernspecht the implication is that the system as a whole is endorsed which is bogus. But it was a step in the right direction toward proper cross training with them working with guys like Gokor for sure.

I can tell you another funny fact about him he always wears steeltoe shoes and his argument is a martial artist or attacker cannot ask him or someone who works in construction to politely remove them before he kicks them and breaks something.

Regarding Boztepe. Kernspechts business model was also to contract street fighters /small time criminals and send them to other martial arts schools and film that. They had no origin in WC but were agressive and muscular. Also if you would leave EWTO he would send you these videos and threaten to visit you with them. He was and is organized like a sect. His early street fighters were Torsten Gruhn and Uwe Müller. When they were not available anymore he found Boztepe. That was the whole reasoning. Kernspecht learned from Baghwan in how to organize this.

This is Emin Boztepe ground fighting with Kernspecht in the background.

In the early 90's Boztepe was dangerous. Solid standup,nasty strikes and wrestling I don't see the Royce Gracie UFC 1 version doing well against him in a nhb fight with the level of competition he was facing in the early ufc, it would have been worse than he had in the Kimo fight. Really a 50-50 fight there and without rules at all I don't favour Royce in that one.

The Boztepe video is ok for early 90's material. Good upkicks, some decent scissor takedowns and leg flexibility leading to Gnp. Nothing special but nothing stupid either, best bet is to get up of course from the ground. They never persued this training because it goes into the realm of mma more which is good but goes against their angle of promoting only Wing Chun . WC is a primarily a stand-up system. While there is some standing grappling and the principles can help on the ground you would still need to learn separately and become proficient at grappling to fight there and anyone with common sense knows this.


The other 'anti grappling' video you posted is pure clown trash I have not seen that before but that type of shit can be found in any mcdojo where a guy who is clueless is trying to teach something he doesn't know anything about.
Teaching those type of idiots a basic sprawl would be too much it seems but you can't take some clueless retards doing that drill and claim it in anyway represents genuine WC at all which it does not. Learning a sprawl combined with 12-6 elbows would be the usual strategy against a double or perhaps a turn and sprawl with elbows etc.

 

[shincheckin]

i though though the "philosophy" behind karateigh and wang chan was looking snazzy in pj's and beating people up so you can bang their chicks... must be going to the wrong class.

That's why we wear headbands and ribbons in MT.

So your ribbons fly like bicycle tassels when doing flying knees

 

[eternaldarkness]

That's why we wear headbands and ribbons in MT.

So your ribbons fly like bicycle tassels when doing flying knees

View attachment 830921

Nice. The knee and the tassels.

 

[shincheckin]

Nice. The knee and the tassels.

Don't forget to dance around and cast spells first