UFC/Pride Heavyweight Champions with least-to-most Top 10 ranked wins at Heavyweight.

[gono btw]

and Heath Herring.

What is it supposed to mean, tho...

 

[RogerB08]

What is it supposed to mean, tho...

You gonna tell me Heath Herring was all that?

 

[moreorless87]

You gonna tell me Heath Herring was all that?

Compared to say Derrick Lewis who just fought for the belt for a second time I would say yeah he was, I probably wouldnt put him in the top 10 most skilled HW's ever at his peak but a dangerous aggressive fighter, very tough and with very strong anti grappling.

Imagine Cormier vs peak Herring instead of vs Lewis and tell me that would be an easier match for DC.

A lot of fighters from the earlier era I think a big issue is that different aspects of your game were much more likely to be tested back then than they are today.

 

[gono btw]

You gonna tell me Heath Herring was all that?

hmmm...depends....

Let´s check, tho...Step by step...

1/ Which win put him on the map & why?

2/ Durin´that era, & b4 Crocop, who was considered one of the 3 'Emperors' along with Big Nog & Fedor ['Sankyoujidai' era] ?

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

Interesting thread.

This is a crazy difficult task to undertake for free by a single poster, so a hat tip is in order.

I think if I could clone myself to work on this I would take a sort of meta-analytic(ish) type of approach to answering these questions. At a super basic level, that would basically involve compiling a variety of lists from sources (that meet a reasonable standard) and averaging them out. Perhaps giving somewhat different weights to more prestigious institutional lists, etc....

And the openweight, GP, "inactive but still a top 5/10 fighter" quirks would have to get worked out with decision rules.

That's a load to ask anyone though. Too much time, especially since the lists would be used 90 percent for shitposting purposes anyway

 

[moreorless87]

Interesting thread.

This is a crazy difficult task to undertake for free by a single poster, so a hat tip is in order.

I think if I could clone myself to work on this I would take a sort of meta-analytic(ish) type of approach to answering these questions. At a super basic level, that would basically involve compiling a variety of lists from sources (that meet a reasonable standard) and averaging them out. Perhaps giving somewhat different weights to more prestigious institutional lists, etc....

And the openweight, GP, "inactive but still a top 5/10 fighter" quirks would have to get worked out with decision rules.

That's a load to ask anyone though. Too much time, especially since the lists would be used 90 percent for shitposting purposes anyway

Ultimately these kinds of lists will never give you a definitive answer though, some subjectivity will always be there because rankings depend on the quality of the era and indeed on things like booking, who got to fight who when.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

There's also Gary Goodridge, Brett Roger's, old past it Mark Coleman, and Heath Herring.

and so what? he beat those guys, he didn't lose to them, so why does it matter? do you lose points for beating up guys who aren't top fighters?

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

There's 5 names on his. Only 2 were rematches. Not sure why half of sherdog hates on that man. A healthy Cain beats Werdum in a rematch, then that woulda set up the dream fight of Velasquez vs Miocic for UFC HW goat (at the time)

that's like saying "Arlovski with an iron chin would've beat Fedor" sure, but he doesn't have one. just like Cain's weakness is his fragile body, people need to get over his injury proneness like it's some kind of freak accident. the same reason his body is made of glass is the same reason Arlovski's chin couldn't take Fedor's punch.

 

[moreorless87]

that's like saying "Arlovski with an iron chin would've beat Fedor" sure, but he doesn't have one. just like Cain's weakness is his fragile body, people need to get over his injury proneness like it's some kind of freak accident. the same reason his body is made of glass is the same reason Arlovski's chin couldn't take Fedor's punch.

I do tend to think though the big issue there was that Fedor was just superior to Arlovski defencively, maybe a bit of luck in the way the punch landed quite as well as it did(although Fedor picked out Arlovski was doing something very fast and actually landed before he even got airborn) but chances are something would have. Fedor was just much better at timing and slipping punches than Andrei IMHO he was much more stuiff and upright plys prone to backing up in straight lines, Arlovski's best defence was always his offence IMHO.

In Cains case I wouldnt rule him out of beating Werdum, he did land plenty on him in the first round and maybe on anothetr night one of those punches hurts him but Werdums grappling, thai clinch and jab I think meant Cain was having to work much harder than against JDS and if the match went long he was always in trouble.

I think that fight did really explose that Cain was quite a limited striker, powerful and dangerous but he matched up really well with JDS who was far weaker pushed back to the cage. Against a good straight counter he always looked vulnerable.

 

[RogerB08]

and so what? he beat those guys, he didn't lose to them, so why does it matter? do you lose points for beating up guys who aren't top fighters?

No, but guys who aren't top fighters don't make your resume more impressive even if they did manage to crack the top 10.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

No, but guys who aren't top fighters don't make your resume more impressive even if they did manage to crack the top 10.

nobody considers those wins impressive

 

[Shaddows]

The fact Brok is on this list just comes to show how the numbers can be deceiving....

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

I do tend to think though the big issue there was that Fedor was just superior to Arlovski defencively, maybe a bit of luck in the way the punch landed quite as well as it did(although Fedor picked out Arlovski was doing something very fast and actually landed before he even got airborn) but chances are something would have. Fedor was just much better at timing and slipping punches than Andrei IMHO he was much more stuiff and upright plys prone to backing up in straight lines, Arlovski's best defence was always his offence IMHO.

In Cains case I wouldnt rule him out of beating Werdum, he did land plenty on him in the first round and maybe on anothetr night one of those punches hurts him but Werdums grappling, thai clinch and jab I think meant Cain was having to work much harder than against JDS and if the match went long he was always in trouble.

I think that fight did really explose that Cain was quite a limited striker, powerful and dangerous but he matched up really well with JDS who was far weaker pushed back to the cage. Against a good straight counter he always looked vulnerable.

i agree on all points.

my point is you can't make an assumption about something on a "IF" situation. IF Cain wasn't injured he'd have beat Werdum. IF Arlovski had an iron chin he would've beat Fedor. are both assumptions that that is all those fighters need to win, and i don't see it that way. like you pointed out, there were other reasons why those fighters lost those fights, not just because of chin/injuries.

 

[TR1]

No, but guys who aren't top fighters don't make your resume more impressive even if they did manage to crack the top 10.

That can be said of 90% of Stipe's resume lol.

Won't even talk about guys like Brock, or Ngannu.

 

[mjfan23]

What’s especially telling is strength of the era some guy was ranked number ten in. For example today relics like AA and Big Ben are still winning lol

 

[TR1]

stipe has 8 top 5 wins. fedor has 4. stipe is #1 all time in top 5 wins.

stats are fun. you can slant them many ways.

Stipe has a single win over a credible opponent in their 20s or early 30s during his epic UFC run.

There's a fun stat for ya.

 

[moreorless87]

i agree on all points.

my point is you can't make an assumption about something on a "IF" situation. IF Cain wasn't injured he'd have beat Werdum. IF Arlovski had an iron chin he would've beat Fedor. are both assumptions that that is all those fighters need to win, and i don't see it that way. like you pointed out, there were other reasons why those fighters lost those fights, not just because of chin/injuries.

Although really the iron chin is nonsense isnt it? getting caught by a massive overhand like that going for a flying knee is going to be lights out from pretty much anyone, even Mark Hunt was put down by Manhoef in a similar kind of position.

 

[RogerB08]

That can be said of 90% of Stipe's resume lol.

Won't even talk about guys like Brock, or Ngannu.

Can be said of most guys; that's why I don't get in on proclaiming anyone the GOAT,

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

Although really the iron chin is nonsense isnt it? getting caught by a massive overhand like that going for a flying knee is going to be lights out from pretty much anyone, even Mark Hunt was put down by Manhoef in a similar kind of position.

yes and no. i agree it was an insane shot that is unlikely for anyone to survive without being KO'd and you're right i've seen Mark Hunt get KO'd by a single punch from a 185lber, but the thing is i've also seen him eat multiple head kicks from the deadliest kicker in the game and literally smile.

chins are strange things.

 

[moreorless87]

yes and no. i agree it was an insane shot that is unlikely for anyone to survive without being KO'd and you're right i've seen Mark Hunt get KO'd by a single punch from a 185lber, but the thing is i've also seen him eat multiple head kicks from the deadliest kicker in the game and literally smile.

chins are strange things.

The headkick from Mirko he was braced for it though, a lot of Arlovski's KO loses have tended to be were he'd been caught off balance. Really I think his chin isnt bad at all, not GOAT level but probably no weaker than many other great HWs.

The ironic thing is though I think that fear of making errors and getting KOed actually had a MUCH more negative effect on him than the finishes themselves, Arlovski making the odd error was still at the top of the division, overly defensive Arlovski post Fedor never really was.

His best defence was always offence I'd say catching people before they could catch him or backing them up, when he was backed up himself his technical weaknesses there became more obvious.