Do you really believe that Valentina isn't going to learn from this?

[fortheo]

She doesn't make the same mistakes twice.
When she lost against Amanda the first time she knew it was her grappling that failed her...she grew by leaps and bounds immediately after that.

She had a tough fight yesterday, but don't think in your hateful little hearts that she isn't going to learn, grow and get better from this experience.

~fin

She will, butTailia has far more time to learn from this than Val does.

 

[StonedLemur]

All Valentina had to do to win that fight is stop tying up and clinching. It literally drove me nuts. After 2 rounds she should have got the picture "hey my opponent is a better grappler than me." somehow she did win...but I'm not sold on that. That's an argument for a different thread I suppose.

Here's my biggest issue, fighters not accepting that plan a is not working, and also failing to be able to control themselves and change their gameplan. I think shev knew she shouldn't go for takedowns, and honestly part of believes she was clinching and tying up out of habit...sort of like default mode from all of the drills and success she's had with it.

So...is there a way to train fighters so that they don't always go into default mode? The same thing happened with Glover, he rocked Jiri and then went for a submission, more than once I think. I just don't understand that sometimes. When you have a man rocked, more times than not he recovers if you try to grapple, and the success rate would prob be higher if you go for KO vs Sub.

Change my mind, please.

You're right and the "default" button, but that is such a hardwired thing that it's extremely hard to stop doing.
You work hard enough to create muscle memory so that in the moments of the fight you react without thinking.
It takes thousands of hours to create that.

Like you said she has had such great success as of late with the clinch, takedown and beat their faces in.
Talia has great athletic abilities but she didn't do much on top except get punched and elbowed a lot.

When she had Valentina's back she was in her best position but still couldn't create much damage.
Overall it was a good showing for Talia, and she'll be fine at the end of the day.

Glover has that same thing happening with him, where the success of a way of fighting can be a detrimental thing to the progress of the fight.

Dan Henderson fell in love with his KO power and that got in his way a few times.
Rampage too had that problem.

When you have a few tools in your garage that you use all the time, it becomes more difficult to access the other tools when you need them the most.
You can normally fix a flat tire with a lug wrench but sometimes a pipe wrench is need for one reason or another.

It's the same with fighting in my eyes.

It's frustrating as a fan but we're not standing on the other side of the cage from our favorite fighters opponent sir.
If we see it while watching then we have to believe they will see it when they watch it.

 

[StonedLemur]

She will, butTailia has far more time to learn from this than Val does.

That is a fact sir, but Talia will never reach the overall knowledge of the game that Valentina has.
Talia definitely has some good qualities that will serve her well though.

I doubt they make that rematch but if they do Valentina knows how to fix what went wrong I believe.

 

[StonedLemur]

she had noticeably less muscle booty last night. methinks she has 1 or 2 fights left.

I guess we'll have to see sir.

 

[StonedLemur]

The two most important tds came from Val's mistakes and weren't forced by Santos.

Saying Santos would have won definitively without the head clash is reaching, and completely ignoring the fact that she was badly gassed by the championship rounds, which was expected of her.

Also, Santos' eye wasn't stopping her from trying to clinch and take Val down. If she had the energy for it, she would have, but she didn't. And by this point Val had adjusted and was looking to fight at range and just win rounds. She wasn't repeating the earlier mistakes of punching into tie ups and trying to grapple anymore.

Well said sir.

 

[StonedLemur]

I think Shev should just keep it standing next time, she looked like the better fighter on the feet

Yeah she's miles better on the feet.

 

[xhaydenx]

She will, butTailia has far more time to learn from this than Val does.

This is something that will take Valentina no time at all to learn from. The way she fought in the 4th and 5th likely would have seen her shutting Santos out completely if she'd fought that way earlier.

But the way she fought in the 4th and 5th is an approach that she's done plenty of times before. Staying at range and using her superior striking and not striking her way into tie ups is something that she's done for whole fights. She did it against Nunes and she did it against Liz.

It's incredibly strange that she thought clinching up with someone like Santos was a good idea in the first place, let alone that she tried it again later after it had already cost her the first round on 2 of the judges cards.

 

[Doughie99]

Yeah it was bizarre behavior. Of course I must recognize her talent and skill, but she also strikes me as the type of fighter that will really struggle with their physical decline when it does come. The absolute certainty and lack of reflection on what was clearly a difficult fight speaks of someone who has bought in to their own hype. Maybe that’s one of the reasons for her greatness, but it’s also one of the reasons I dislike her.

yes her reaction post-fight in interview plus the post-fight presser kinda ....zero acknowledgement that she almost lost. I actually thought she HAD lost.
A little admission from her that it was very close would have been nice.

when Cormier asked her how confident she was in the decision going her way...i think she kinda ignored the question and said something else.

 

[Kuksenkov]

It was the height/reach and strength in the clinch and grappling exchanges that gave her problems. Plus she was worried about her striking from the start. She planted her feet and was only looking to counter and keep distance. Santos just had physical advantages that gave Valentina problems. It's not about Valentina declining, it's just that body type and style of fighting is a dangerous fight for Valentina. Some fighters don't do well with a size/height/reach/strength disadvantage and that's the real reason Valentina struggled. Santos is skilled so it's not the same as someone having more size/reach/height/strength but less skilled. They were equally skilled and Santos had physical advantages.

Not a lot of fighters really know how to fight against a reach/height disadvantage in striking. Also Santos was stronger grappler so she couldn't fall back on the grappling to try and win the fight. Valentia kept initiating the clinch because she didn't want to strike vs Santos with Santos having a height/reach advantage over her. It made Valentina real uncomfortable.

I gotta correct you here, based on history Valentina has no issues striking with longer opponents. She outstruck Holm (5'8"), and Chookagian (5'9"), and was razor close on significant strikes against Nunes (5'8"). Then she kept the fight standing the last two rounds, after having the most success on the feet on rounds 1-3. If anything it was Santos who didn't want to stand with Valentina, nor did she want to strike while she was in Mount because she threw next to no strikes. Santos is slower on the feet, and her only physical advantages were strength and size.

Valentina overcame the brute strength and size of Holm, Kaufman, Andrade, Carmouche, and Maia (who was HUGE for their fight). So even then, she's not necessarily vulnerable to fighting larger opponents.

The two most important tds came from Val's mistakes and weren't forced by Santos.

Saying Santos would have won definitively without the head clash is reaching, and completely ignoring the fact that she was badly gassed by the championship rounds, which was expected of her.

Also, Santos' eye wasn't stopping her from trying to clinch and take Val down. If she had the energy for it, she would have, but she didn't. And by this point Val had adjusted and was looking to fight at range and just win rounds. She wasn't repeating the earlier mistakes of punching into tie ups and trying to grapple anymore.

I agree with this 100%. The first takedown of the fight, was the result of Valentina's mistake. Santos failed to cause any serious damage besides squeezing Valentina's nose in the first round. She had nothing for Val on the feet either.

Valentina fought a larger, heavier opponent for 25 minutes with an injured foot, and still came out with no visible damage. That's all it was, an off night for Shevchenko due to an injury. If there's a rematch, Santos gets 50-45d.

 

[fortheo]

This is something that will take Valentina no time at all to learn from. The way she fought in the 4th and 5th likely would have seen her shutting Santos out completely if she'd fought that way earlier.

But the way she fought in the 4th and 5th is an approach that she's done plenty of times before. Staying at range and using her superior striking and not striking her way into tie ups is something that she's done for whole fights. She did it against Nunes and she did it against Liz.

It's incredibly strange that she thought clinching up with someone like Santos was a good idea in the first place, let alone that she tried it again later after it had already cost her the first round on 2 of the judges cards.

you're focused on val here. Val isn't the only one who had an imperfect gameplan. That was santos first 5 round fight, and it showed in her somewhat passive, cautious approach. There's tons of adjustments santos could make. Santos wasn't even chasing the takedowns half the time and simply capitalized on many opportunities that were presented to her. Now that she knows full well that she can handle Val in the clinch and on the mat, she will make adjustments and actively search to make those opportunities herself. Also, even after val made adjustments and after santos had the broken orbital, Santos still managed to get val down. Had she landed that takedown in round four 90 seconds earlier, she could have won the round and the fight. Santos knows now she can out grapple val and santos knows she can do five rounds now. She'll adjust and come back more confident than ever.

so yes, val can make the adjustments quickly, but there's lots of strategic things that santos can improve on quickly as well, not to mention that she's only 28 and will be improving her skills quickly as well. The more time between the rematch, the more it favors Santos.

 

[StonedLemur]

you're focused on val here. Val isn't the only one who had an imperfect gameplan. There's tons of adjustments santos could make. Santos wasn't even chasing the takedowns half the time. Now that she knows full well that she can handle Val in the clinch and on the mat, she will make adjustments and search for it more. Also, even after val made adjustments and after santos had the broken orbital, she still managed to get val down. Had she landed that takedown in round for a 90 seconds earlier, she could have won the round and the fight.

so yes, val can make the adjustments quickly, but there's lots of strategic things that santos can improve on quickly, not to mention that she's only 28 and will be improving her skills quickly as well.

Yes and that will make her more aggressive which will only walk herself into a buzzsaw.

 

[fortheo]

Yes and that will make her more aggressive which will only walk herself into a buzzsaw.

Maybe, or it walks her into a takedown or the clinch. That really is the question, isn't it?

 

[StonedLemur]

Maybe, or it walks her into a takedown or the clinch. That really is the question, isn't it?

That's why we watch this thing sir

 

[Pitier of Fools]

Yeah but 52 converted to glover teixera age is like 26

That's like 14 in Francis Ngannou age.

 

[UFCIsNOTRigged]

Lol ok sir.
She did nothing to Val...like at all.
She got her ass kicked while she was in top position.

Can anyone say lay and pray for the most part?

Santos did nothing to Valentina, except totally dominate her, up until her orbital was broken due to a headbutt.

I guess Santos needs to literally separate Valentina from her consciousness for the aggressively creepy "fanclub" to get the memo.

 

[xhaydenx]

you're focused on val here. Val isn't the only one who had an imperfect gameplan. There's tons of adjustments santos could make. Santos wasn't even chasing the takedowns half the time and simply capitalized on many opportunities that were presented to her. Now that she knows full well that she can handle Val in the clinch and on the mat, she will make adjustments and actively search to make those opportunities herself. Also, even after val made adjustments and after santos had the broken orbital, she still managed to get val down. Had she landed that takedown in round four 90 seconds earlier, she could have won the round and the fight.

so yes, val can make the adjustments quickly, but there's lots of strategic things that santos can improve on quickly as well, not to mention that she's only 28 and will be improving her skills quickly as well. The more time between the rematch, the more it favors Santos.

I'm not ignoring Santos at all, believe me. I studied this fight leading up to it because I wanted to see if there was enough value on Santos to bet on. Personally, I wanted her to win as well.

The problem with Santos is that she's very basic. In all her fights, she always has been as well. Nothing wrong with this at all. She's very good at what she does, but ultimately, all she really does is single strikes at range, then eventually flurry forward into the clinch.

Val is a very hard fighter to flurry clinch on when she's trying to be elusive. She wasn't doing this early for whatever reason. I honestly think Val had forgotten what it meant to be challenged. No one at FLW has had any success against her at all outside of Maia for one round.

She seriously seemed to believe that she was going to be able to make those clinch throws and grappling work for her, and when they didn't, she looked panicked. Like, she would never try that shit if she fought say Nunes again.

Like I said before, the adjustment for Val is easy to make: fight in a way she has done plenty of times before. The adjustments for Santos are more challenging. It isn't as simple as just pressure more or anything.

I do agree that Santos has plenty of time to get better and adjust, but if they do have a rematch, and I hope they do, I'd expect a very different approach out of Valentina that would see her winning more clearly.

 

[StonedLemur]

Santos did nothing to Valentina, except totally dominate her, up until her orbital was broken due to a headbutt.

I guess Santos needs to literally separate Valentina from her consciousness for the aggressively creepy "fanclub" to get the memo.

She couldn't even cause a fuckin red spot on her face let alone separating her from her consciousness.

Thanks for the reply though, it was scintillating as usual.

 

[Stoic]

She seemed incapable of making in fight adjustments to her game plan, not sure how a 20 year vet fixes that.

Exactly what I was thinking while watching. Her initiating the clinch when her opponent closes distance seems to be an unfixable instinctive move at this point in her career. Definitely wasn't able to adjust mid-fight to not doing it even though it was costing her. Not sure if she can unlearn that at this point in her career at 34. She's already up there in age and at 125, 34 is pretty old and at the end of the line. Remember, Joseph Benevidez was right around this age when he had a steep decline in performance and he fought at the same weight class.

Not even sure if she wins a rematch, but I remember listening to a podcast recently and they were talking about Erin Blanchfield's chances of becoming champ and mentioned Bullet being a major roadblock. I don't agree at all. She's so much younger than her that I would give it 2-3 years tops before she will beat her and that's being very generous towards Shevchenko given father time and age. Valentina is '97 Jordan right now as far as age comparisons. She will start losing to these young 20 somethings very soon and was pretty lucky that night with the clash of heads altering the fight combined with poor judging.

 

[xhaydenx]

I agree with this 100%. The first takedown of the fight, was the result of Valentina's mistake. Santos failed to cause any serious damage besides squeezing Valentina's nose in the first round. She had nothing for Val on the feet either.

Valentina fought a larger, heavier opponent for 25 minutes with an injured foot, and still came out with no visible damage. That's all it was, an off night for Shevchenko due to an injury. If there's a rematch, Santos gets 50-45d.

The back control of Santos wasn't even enough for all three judges to give her that round either. She was getting hit way too much in that position while doing no damage herself + she'd lost the round up until that point on the feet.

Interesting you say it was an off night for Val. I was talking to a mate I gamble with who is ridiculously good at what he does, and he absolutely thought Val didn't look right while Bruce was announcing her. He thought she looked nervous and off. I didn't really think much of it, but who knows.

 

[fortheo]

I'm not ignoring Santos at all, believe me. I studied this fight leading up to it because I wanted to see if there was enough value on Santos to bet on. Personally, I wanted her to win as well.

The problem with Santos is that she's very basic. In all her fights, she always has been as well. Nothing wrong with this at all. She's very good at what she does, but ultimately, all she really does is single strikes at range, then eventually flurry forward into the clinch.

Val is a very hard fighter to flurry clinch on when she's trying to be elusive. She wasn't doing this early for whatever reason. I honestly think Val had forgotten what it meant to be challenged. No one at FLW has had any success against her at all outside of Maia for one round.

She seriously seemed to believe that she was going to be able to make those clinch throws and grappling work for her, and when they didn't, she looked panicked. Like, she would never try that shit if she fought say Nunes again.

Like I said before, the adjustment for Val is easy to make: fight in a way she has done plenty of times before. The adjustments for Santos are more challenging. It isn't as simple as just pressure more or anything.

I do agree that Santos has plenty of time to get better and adjust, but if they do have a rematch, and I hope they do, I'd expect a very different approach out of Valentina that would see her winning more clearly.

I'd expect a different approach from both girls. Also, what do you mean "fight in a way she's fought plenty of times before" Val has been relying on excessive clinch fighting since her thai days. It's always been one of her strong suits.

Anyways, I agree with you, I'm just not as confident in Val as you are.