Coffee

[Prefect]

These were the #1 and #2 rated burr grinders (the #2 being the best buy) by America's Test Kitchen who are very thorough and objective in their approach to testing equipment:
($149) Baratza Encore Conical Burr Coffee Grinder
($99) Capresso Infinity Conical Burr Grinder

Of relevance here, from their testing:

So, end result, with tasters in a blind tasting, ultimately the evenness of the grinds didn't matter. But, maintaning evenness of grinds as the theoretical desire, with the ability to grind at three different consistencies maintaining peak evenness, also considering the simplicity to operate the machine, they were able to assess which grinders offered the best objective performance. The Baratza above achieved 88% regularity. The Capresso achieved 69% regularity.

I would never waste $350 when there is only 12% room for improvement in the regularity of the grind when that regularity of the grind doesn't even translate to a noticeable improvement in the coffee's flavor in repeated blind tastings of both casual and "expert" drinkers. Waste of money.

You are pulling out very entry level grinder that would never be used at a shop or by an enthusiast. If that is good enough for you, have at it. Often these cheaper grinder, struggle over certain bands of grinding size and if you never need those bands, you would never notice nor should you care. If you aren't making espresso, you wouldn't care if it struggles to consistently give you good grind or the grind size doesn't drift with use. Good variable grinders are good over a large band but you will usually find single-use grinders that are more consistent but you are stuck then with having multiple grinders.

 

[Madmick]

You are pulling out very entry level grinder that would never be used at a shop or by an enthusiast. If that is good enough for you, have at it. Often these cheaper grinder, struggle over certain bands of grinding size and if you never need those bands, you would never notice nor should you care. If you aren't making espresso, you wouldn't care if it struggles to consistently give you good grind or the grind size doesn't drift with use.

A $150 commercial-grade piece of equipment that does nothing but grind coffee beans isn't good enough for an owner to be an enthusiast? 88% evenness isn't good enough?

Bruh...

 

[Ichibanner]

Lebanese coffee isn't a type of bean--in fact, regardless of brand, there's really only 2 varieties of coffee bean in general use FTR--rather it's the method of preparation, to wit,

LEBANESE COFFEE
"Lebanese coffee is a traditional type of coffee commonly consumed in Lebanon and other Middle Eastern countries. It is one of the coffee traditions made by boiling method, similar to Turkish coffee. You can learn the details of coffee brewing methods in our related blog by clicking this link.

Lebanese coffee is made the same way as Arabic coffee, which slightly differs from Turkish coffee brewing. While brewing Turkish coffee, ground coffee and water are mixed while the water is cold, but in Arabic and Lebanese coffee, ground coffee is added to the water when it comes to the boiling point. In addition, cardamom is not a common ingredient in Turkish coffee."

Having said all that, according to the link below which I found just now the way the beans are roasted for traditional Lebanese coffee is different than for other brewing methods so your brand question is a valid one:

How to Make Lebanese Coffee at Home – Lebanese and Turkish Coffee Recipe

Lebanese and Turkish Coffee Recipe
"Traditional Arabic Coffee that is served in the Arabic Gulf is usually made with very lightly roasted coffee beans, with the grinds being almost amber in color. At that level, the coffee has far more caffeine than darker roasts. Traditional Arabic coffee is very finely ground (finer than espresso grinds), brewed with some cardamom spice and then served along with dates. Lebanese style coffee is made in a similar fashion, however the beans are far darker roasted and the outcome is a full bodied coffee profile. It can be served with or without cardamom spice based on preference. Some folks like to down it black, and others add a bit of sugar to it."

Najjar Lebanese Favorite Coffee Brand
"Our favorite Lebanese coffee brand has always been Cafe Najjar. They have a variety of flavor profiles with medium and dark roasts, and some already include cardamom spice which is my favorite. This brand and others could be easily purchased online today."

All right, now I want to try this Lebanese style of coffee. I wonder what the flavor profile will be like compared to the traditional roasts or bean types that I'm used to. Thanks!

 

[Prefect]

A $150 commercial-grade piece of equipment that does nothing but grind coffee beans isn't good enough for an owner to be an enthusiast? 88% evenness isn't good enough?

Bruh...

I can't even take you seriously when you quote a review by some kitchen appliance website that doesn't include any well known brands. I recognize Breville but they also include shit-tier kitchen brands like KitchenAid and Cuisinart. How they chose grinders kind of reflects that they never did their homework as to what is used by enthusiasts. Maybe, that is good enough for drip coffee but when you get to stuff like espresso, grind size and consistency is extremely important. If you are happy, with what you have, you keep doing you. If you would like better coffee or at least get into experimenting, I would suggest the coffee and espresso forum on reddit or https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/. You feel compelled to need to be the expert or in the "right" on this but it is kind of clear you never really go that deep into the hobby aside from liking coffee.

 

[Madmick]

I can't even take you seriously when you quote a review by some kitchen appliance website that doesn't include any well known brands I recognize Breville but they also include shit-tier kitchen brands like KitchenAid and Cuisinart. How they chose grinders kind of reflects that they never did their homework as to what is used by enthusiasts. Maybe, that is good enough for drip coffee but when you get to stuff like espresso, grind size and consistency is extremely important. If you are happy, with what you have, you keep doing you.

LOL, you don't recognize De'Longhi? Also, what the hell does the name matter? They gave you an objective basis to assess the performance of the machines. Are you like Jordan Schlansky? Do you need the device to have an Italian name because without it there isn't this magical ability to break coffee beans up into smaller pieces?

 

[lsa]

LOL, you don't recognize De'Longhi? Also, what the hell does the name matter? They gave you an objective basis to assess the performance of the machines. Are you like Jordan Schlansky? Do you need the device to have an Italian name because without it there isn't this magical ability to break coffee beans up into smaller pieces?

De'Longhi is Italian.
I have one of their grinders. It works absolutely fine.
IIRC it was approx 50 USD.
I am not sure a 500 USD would make my coffee taste much better.
At least not 450 USD better.

 

[Prefect]

LOL, you don't recognize De'Longhi? Also, what the hell does the name matter? They gave you an objective basis to assess the performance of the machines. Are you like Jordan Schlansky? Do you need the device to have an Italian name because without it there isn't this magical ability to break coffee beans up into smaller pieces?

Keep on keeping on with your KitchenAid CuisineArt grinder. I am not going to stop you if that makes you happy. If you want to go more into the hobby, I would suggest visiting the forums I mentioned and looking up if there is a coffee enthusiast group in your area on meetup.com. You sound like you like coffee so I would suggest taking the time to get more into it.

 

[Madmick]

De'Longhi is Italian.

I'm aware, that's the joke.

 

[Madmick]

Keep on keeping on with your KitchenAid CuisineArt grinder. I am not going to stop you if that makes you happy. If you want to go more into the hobby, I would suggest visiting the forums I mentioned and looking up if there is a coffee enthusiast group in your area on meetup.com. You sound like you like coffee so I would suggest taking the time to get more into it.

On what grounds-- and the pun is fully intended, here-- are you disparaging these brands? Why are you mocking them as obscure?

Baratza earned their top recommendation. It's all over bestseller charts for coffee equipment on Amazon, such as the Burr grinder chart I linked on the first page, and their most expensive burr grinders on these charts aren't cheap-- they run up to $400. So is Oxo which is one of the brands the SCA certified for home brewers (like Breville). Capresso is another brand that populates bestseller charts. Bodum is the leading manufacturer of french presses. And you can take potshots at KitchenAid, which certainly isn't known for the world's top-of-the-line coffee equipment, but that is a storied brand which has been manufacturing the most esteemed home stand mixers for over half a century. It's not like they aren't a respected kitchen brand that knows what they're doing.

Bro, stop sniffing your own farts. I don't know who sold you this bullshit $500 Kool-Aid, but stop drinking it. They didn't know what the hell they were talking about. It was all hot air.

 

[Iron Mang]

I either buy beans, grind them myself and make coffee with a french press. Or, use my Nespresso if I'm in a time crunch.

My favorite local roaster is Dark Horse. Second would be the Coffee Bean.

Least favorite would be Starbucks. You could drink asphalt and get the same effect.

Coffee Bean is my jam. I also really don't care for Starbucks. They scorch their beans to give it a signature, IIRC. I tried a French press a while back, but what I didn't like about it is all the little bits of grounds that find their way through the mesh. I only make coffee like this now. It's a bit of a labor of love, because it takes about 8-ish mins to heat up the kettle to the proper temp, and then slowly pour over the grounds. Then when the filter gets full, have to let it drain and then repeat. My morning coffee and breakfast routine is about 20 mins every morning, but my cup of coffee is delicious. It would be better if I ground my own beans, but I got kids that I don't want to wake up too early. lol!

 

[Prefect]

On what grounds-- and the pun is fully intended, here-- are you disparaging these brands? Why are you mocking them as obscure?

Baratza earned their top recommendation. It's all over bestseller charts for coffee equipment on Amazon, such as the Burr grinder chart I linked on the first page, and their most expensive burr grinders on these charts aren't cheap-- they run up to $400. So is Oxo which is one of the brands the SCA certified for home brewers (like Breville). Capresso is another brand that populates bestseller charts. Bodum is the leading manufacturer of french presses. And you can take potshots at KitchenAid, which certainly isn't known for the world's top-of-the-line coffee equipment, but that is a storied brand which has been manufacturing the most esteemed home stand mixers for over half a century. It's not like they aren't a respected kitchen brand that knows what they're doing.

Bro, stop sniffing your own farts. I don't know who sold you this bullshit $500 Kool-Aid, but stop drinking it. They didn't know what the hell they were talking about. It was all hot air.

I am not stopping you from you being you. It is kind of clear that you never got into making espresso, which cheaper grinders struggle at grind for without adding fines. If you are happy with a happy $50 grinder for what you do, I am not going to argue. Your just happy getting less for less and that is ok. If you wanted to go that route, you would still be better at just buying used equipment, especially a used commercial grinder rather than buying a low end grinder. The route you are going gets really gets wonky if you ever get into espresso because you could pair a $1500 espresso machine with a $150 grinder and never get good consistent espresso. A lot of your automated coffee drink machines are held back by the grinder and not the portion of the machine that passes the hot water through the packed ground coffee.

If you want to get into espresso, I would suggest a mechanical espresso machine like a La Pavoni Europiccola or Pro because it forces you to make all the adjustments like with the grind size, amount of coffee, extraction time, puck packing, and pressure which you would not be exposed to with an automated machine so you wouldn't know how different things can shift the taste more in the direction of your liking. With an automated machine, you never really understand the process or what you could be drinking with a few changes.

 

[Madmick]

I am not stopping you from you being you. It is kind of clear that you never got into making espresso, which cheaper grinder struggle at grind for without adding fines. If you are happy with a happy $50 grinder for what you do, I am not going to argue. Your just happy getting less for less and that is ok. If you wanted to go that route, you would still be better at just buying used equipment, especially a used commercial grinder rather than buying a low end grinder.

Why do you keep strawmanning my objection to your absurd assertion that $500 is required for a good burr grinder?

First, you dismiss the brands simply because they're unfamiliar to you despite that they're all over bestseller lists, and recommended by groups like the SCA. Second, you dismiss ATC's testing results not based on the science of it, when they quoted a Ph.D. from UC Davis's coffee center, nor the results, where they specify the exact percentage of grounds that conform to his definitions, but because their test suite merely included the likes of CuisinArt despite that they put CuisinArt's grinder in their "Not Recommended" section. Now you're accusing me of blindly advocating $50 grinders when I specifically pointed to ATC's recommendations at $150/$100 price points, and when ATC themselves mentioned all the poorest performing grinders were $50 or less.

What is your rebuttal to the simple assertion an excellent grinder can be purchased for $150?

 

[BFoe]

The coffee maker doesn't make the coffee. It is the grinder. Too many people use blade grinder which get a lot of fines and make the coffee bitter. A good variable burr grinder, will run you at least $500 new. A consistent like 90% to making a good coffee or espresso. Burr grinders in my opinion should be had by anyone that likes coffee and wants freshly ground coffee. The grinders at your supermarket are very hit and miss and the adjustments are so loose that it is hard to produce a grind that matches up consistently with how you like coffee. If you are going to get a burr grinder, you might as well spend $250-500 for a used mechanical espresso machine for espresso drink. I got a used La Pavoni that has paid for itself many times over.

When I make coffee, I just French drip it because it is easy but any adjustments are all in the grind size, amount of coffee, and seeping time.

A good burr grinder is essential, I agree—but I side more with @Madmick when it comes to the cost & quality debate. I think $100-$150 is more than adequate to get a good burr grinder. And honestly, if someone made me choose between using a $500 burr grinder and then brewing in a Mr. Coffee, or using a $100 burr grinder and brewing in my Technivorm, I’d take the $100 burr grinder and Technivorm any day.

 

[Prefect]

Why do you keep strawmanning my objection to your absurd assertion that $500 is required for a good burr grinder?

First, you dismiss the brands simply because they're unfamiliar to you despite that they're all over bestseller lists. Second, you dismiss ATC's testing results not based on the science of it, when they quoted a Ph.D. from UC Davis's coffee center, nor the results, where they specify the exact percentage of grounds that conform to his definitions, but because the test suite merely included the likes of CuisinArt despite that they put CuisinArt's grinder in their "Not Recommended" section. Now you're accusing me of blindly advocating $50 grinders when I specifically pointed to ATC's recommendations at $150/$100 price points, and when ATC themselves mentioned all the poorest performing grinders were $50 or less.

What is your rebuttal to the simple assertion an excellent grinder can be purchased for $150?

You can do you. If you don't want to follow the recommendations based the collective experiences of various hobby groups, that is up to you. As I said earlier, cheaper grinders tend to struggle with espresso grinds even though they all claim they can do it consistently. If you are able to make do with a grind that is cheaper and maybe needs some monkeying or you just aren't bothered by some fines, more power to you. I am unsure as to why you need me to tell you that $500 is too much when I don't agree with that when it is such a crucial piece to making espresso, more important than the espresso machine itself. You can make pretty decent espresso with a good grinder and a cheap espresso machine but not the other way around. I am not really sure why you are pressing on this when it is kind of clear you never got very deep into it and it comes across as you being "right". You are free to make do with a cheaper grinder if it meets your needs and expectations but it will almost always have some drawbacks related to needing monkeying, inclusion of fines, and inconsistent grind. If you are ok with the drawbacks, the flavor, or the inability to reproduce the same thing over and over more power to you.


https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/threads/baratza-encore-or.17348/#post-206478

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/threads/baratza-encore-or.17348/#post-206478

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/thre...a-encore-isnt-for-espresso.28959/#post-406786

 

[Spounman]

Do you have a preferred coffee brand, and if so what is it?

View attachment 989698

https://rangercandycoffeecompany.com/collections/single-origin

Starbucks in the morning then I make Folgers in the afternoon. I have a bag of black rifle that my buddy gave me but I didn't care for it too much.

 

[Prefect]

A good burr grinder is essential, I agree—but I side more with @Madmick when it comes to the cost & quality debate. I think $100-$150 is more than adequate to get a good burr grinder. And honestly, if someone made me choose between using a $500 burr grinder and then brewing in a Mr. Coffee, or using a $100 burr grinder and brewing in my Technivorm, I’d take the $100 burr grinder and Technivorm any day.

If that meets your needs, more power to you. You just are going to struggle with something like espresso with a $100 grinder.

 

[BFoe]

If that meets your needs, more power to you. You just are going to struggle with something like espresso with a $100 grinder.

That could be, I don’t make espresso or have an espresso machine,so I can’t really speak to that. For the size grinds I need for drip, my burr grinder works nicely.

 

[Prefect]

That could be, I don’t make espresso or have an espresso machine,so I can’t really speak to that. For the size grinds I need for drip, my burr grinder works nicely.

I prefer my burr grinder for drip but unless I really punch it in my blade grinder, I don't know if I would be able to know the difference if I blindingly compared the two. A course blade grind might waste coffee flavor but it would keep you away from over-extraction. I know that I am going to get a little grief but I think you have to have a lot of fines in drip coffee to really taste overextraction just due to the extraction time, pressure, and heat being so low.

 

[BFoe]

I prefer my burr grinder for drip but unless I really punch it in my blade grinder, I don't know if I would be able to tell the difference if I blindingly compared the two. I know that I am going to get a little grief but I think you have to have a lot of fines in drip coffee to really taste overextraction just due to the extraction time, pressure, and heat being so low.

Yeah that’s the thing with my coffee maker; it heats the water first, specifically between 195-202 F (I’m going by memory but I think that’s what it was), and only once the water has reached that temperature will it let it through to steep into the coffee grounds. It heats water from cold to that 200 degrees-ish temperature within 30 seconds. That’s basically what you’re paying for with that coffeemaker, the crazy German-made heating unit. There aren’t any bells and whistles on it aside from that (no clock, automatic timer, etc).

 

[HomeCheese]

Gotta love Peet's! I grew up in Berkeley in the 70's right near the first Peet's store, when there was only one location. Kind of spoiled me on coffee, I always go with a quality bean and grind every morning.

Living in Kona now and my neighbor is well connected in the community, he given me organic local bean that's top notch. No label, just comes in a gold bag. Still I find Kona coffee a little too weak so I mix in some darker/richer bean too.

Occasionally Costco has the Major Dickinson whole been and I pick that up but I don't think there is a Peet's location in the state. At least not on my island.