Change My Mind: A Society Cannot "Work" Itself to Equality

...and of course, who decides what is "fair"?
a conundrum as old as society itself; who gets to decide the rules that we all live by? The answer is some form of government, which always brings it's own set of problems.

edit: just had a crazy thought, I can see a future where these types of decisions or maybe even governance in general is left to some type of objective AI. crazy lol.
 
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They don’t hide the ball. The system is called capitalism. You need capital.

If you are the greatest worker in the world, save your money and open your own factory then try to find workers who were like you. There are exceptions but you will usually do better if you have a piece of the business.
 
I'm saying health insurance has gone thru the roof since Obamacare. Both open market and for employers
I remember everyone complaining that health insurance was going through the roof before “Obamacare”. You got a source that says the ACA made it worse? And what about all the people getting sick and going bankrupt? Has that problem changed at all? That was a big reason for the ACA, but I honestly don’t know what the data says as a result.
 
So your wife is in a position to pay more than she brings home in a year? That is most unusual. She has multiple engineers making say $100-150k yet generates less profit than that at the end of the year? Hmmm....

Of course a cashier makes that much money, unless you think only the absolute lowest employee "makes" things, in which case none of us have real jobs we all mooch off some farmer or factory worker in Bangladesh. They work harder than all of us.

Theyl cashiers aren't "making money" they are generating revenue. In total a Walmart probably makes well north of $100 millions a year. Possibly $500M. You are VASTLY underestimating how much money a Walmart pulls in. The workers together run the business, the business generates billions and billions. It's not all profit but a lot is.

"Walmart's revenue is $611.3 billion.
Walmart has 2,300,000 employees, and the revenue per employee ratio is $265,778. Walmart's peak quarterly revenue was $164.0B in 2022(q4). Walmart peak revenue was $611.3B in 2022. Walmart annual revenue for 2021 was 572.8B, 2.43% growth from 2020."

Easy algebra. Each employee generates $265,000. Every single one.

Walmart gross profit for the quarter ending October 31, 2023 was $39.621B, a 6.51% increase year-over-year.


Walmart gross profit for the twelve months ending October 31, 2023 was $155.045B, a 5.98% increase year-over-year.
Walmart annual gross profit for 2023 was $147.568B, a 2.65% increase from 2022.
Walmart annual gross profit for 2022 was $143.754B, a 3.54% increase from 2021.
Walmart annual gross profit for 2021 was $138.836B, a 7.33% increase from 2020.

They made $155 BILLION in pure profit last year. They have 2.3 million employees.


Average - $70,000 in profit last year.
So the average Walmart worker generates $250,000 a year for Walmart and the company profits $70,000 off their labor. This is public info lol, they're a publicly traded company it's no secret
Apparently not that easy. Again, the walmart employees don't make any of the products they sell, so how do they "generate" the entire revenue?

They're a retail store. If you buy something for $500, then sell it for $600 and ship it to the person, did UPS "generate" $600 for you? Well, the person at the counter took it from you and entered it into the computer, then someone put it on the belt, then there's the sorters, then someone loaded the truck, then there's the driver, then several more guys switched it to another truck, then another guy delivered it. That's about 30 people working together to make that transaction happen, so out of the $600 transaction, $20 for you and $20 for each of the other 29 guys seems fair, right? Shouldn't matter that you spent the $500 to buy the damn thing in the first place, it's $600 in revenue that everyone at UPS generated for you.

And the Walmart CEO's actual salary is $1.5 million, or about 65 cents per employee per year.
 
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I remember everyone complaining that health insurance was going through the roof before “Obamacare”. You got a source that says the ACA made it worse? And what about all the people getting sick and going bankrupt? Has that problem changed at all? That was a big reason for the ACA, but I honestly don’t know what the data says as a result.
Average_Annual_Cost_of_Individual_Health_Insurance_Premiums_and_Deductibles_2008_through_2019.png
 
After thinking about it, I just do not see how hard work, and I'm being specific here, can solve inequality.

No tldr but here is summary
A Boss or Owner will NOT allow his employees to profit more than him under ANY circumstances. This is more or less a law of the universe. There are very rare occurrences such as a machinist working 80 hrs a week for a year making more than his supervisor, but in 99.999% of cases the Boss will PROFIT more in EVERY circumstance than a rank and file Employee. Because they have more than one Employee, all the Profits flow to the Boss and it is IMPOSSIBLE to solve this issue, if you consider it an issue.


Example

Walmart pays their employees an average of $27(approx.)
Walmart generates $54 in money per hour per employee. So the shareholders are collecting 50% of the money. As the shareholders are generally richer they can do things like buy apartments houses fast food locations grocery stores. Everything.

Better example a small machine shop wit. 5 employees one owner. One supervisor 4 regular employees.
The workers make $25/hr. The supervisor makes $35/hr.
The company owner will not under any circumstances let his employees make more than him- he collects say 60% of income. 40% of the money earned by the business goes to the employee (this may be even overly generous, ufc pays 17%).
Let's say each employee generates $50 of net revenue per hour worked. So with 5 employees the boss is making (250 - 25*4 - 35) = $115/hr for each hour his shop is open. Minus bills he is making let's say $75/he in profit.
Owner has say $1 million and owns a home and car. He has no bills. No rent. His mortgage is lower than his employees' rent. He can use this $75/hr to purchase his employees apartments. His employees are giving him 25% of their money in rent.

So after purchasing the apartment he is now making

25 + 75 = $100/hr in pure profit.

Meanwhile his employees are pocketing after their expenses let's say $5/hr. That would be $600 per month a pretty good savings for working class.

Under this situation the MORE the workers work the greater the gap between the Owner and his Employees. Every hour they go to work his money is increasing much faster than each of theirs is, both individually and collectively.

These numbers are made up but for any business it seems to hold true. The Owner or shareholders ALWAYS 100% of the time will get richer faster than their employees will as long as their business stays open and is profitable. Which 99% of businesses are especially small local ones. No one's gonna keep a machine shop running unless it's generating profits.


Basically I think "workism" is corporate brainwashing and the only way to reverse inequality is to start your own business and NOT work for others. Or taxes. But I do not think you can "bootstrap" your way to Equality. It's just impossible mathematically.

Change my mind

Honest question : What does a 'equality' society look like to you?
 
I remember everyone complaining that health insurance was going through the roof before “Obamacare”. You got a source that says the ACA made it worse? And what about all the people getting sick and going bankrupt? Has that problem changed at all? That was a big reason for the ACA, but I honestly don’t know what the data says as a result.


Yes it was expensive before obamacare. It's now at least twice as expensive.

I don't have a chart that says obamacare is responsible. All I have is history and common sense. Everytime government gets involved in subsidizing and making mandates on an industry costs go up. It's very similar to the student loan crisis. The government stepped in and backed student loans which allowed schools to raise tuitions/room/board at a rate that dwarfs normal inflation. It's essentially a blank check.

Same is true for health care. When you dictate that people must have healthcare. When you create new methods of governments subsidizing healthcare. It's no coincidentally that healthcare costs have exploded in the last decade.
 
Capitalism is the largest pyramid scheme ever devised. Play Monopoly if you want a rough but poignant understanding of how it works.
 
Yes and no. An employee is contractually guaranteed their wages and the business owner takes the risk of starting the business and while the owner gets the profits the owner also eats the losses. Restaurant after restaurant opens up and the owner takes a bath and closes it down out some hundreds of thousands of dollars with nothing but memories to show for it. The waiters and dishwashers didn't make George Soros money...but they did get paid the whole time.
The employees are taking risks working for the business. This is an often overlooked detail.
 
People are like testicles, one will always be lower than another.
 
The employees are taking risks working for the business. This is an often overlooked detail.
What are they risking? I'm not aware of a bunch of jobs that make the employees put up a bunch of money to start working there, or else why would they take the job instead of starting a business themselves?
 
What are they risking? I'm not aware of a bunch of jobs that make the employees put up a bunch of money to start working there, or else why would they take the job instead of starting a business themselves?
If they lose their job they lose their income, if in the US likely health insurance, and they may also be treated like shit. The business owner is not required to take the risk of starting a business, it's their choice, and that can't make money without the employees (thus, no business), or they would.
 
If they lose their job they lose their income, if in the US likely health insurance, and they may also be treated like shit. The business owner is not required to take the risk of starting a business, it's their choice, and that can't make money without the employees (thus, no business), or they would.
Income they didn't have before the job either. They don't end up worse off than they were without the job. When people refer to the business owner assuming the risk, they mean you start out in the red and have expenses to pay before you get anything. You could make good money, or you could make less than you owe and work with nothing to show for it.

It would be a risk if you had to give your paychecks back if the company went out of business, or you work for free until the company's debts are paid off, but nobody's demanding that. You're paid for the hours you work no matter what
 
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THIS

I can't believe that people actually think that employees should make the same money as the person who started the company.

That's because you believe in heirarchichal societies and the myth of meritocracy. And you live in a Country where Companies and ideas are regularly wrested away from innovators, the people who started them, by capitalists...or whose idea the corporate structure became entirely based off of, are buried in History in favor of people who solely pursued dominance of industry, and these people become idolized and celebrated in our society as exceptional, even when they've had repeated colossal failures that can be attributed to mismanagement, and lacks of long-term vision.

Throughout industrial History, oppressing the workforce because they're lesser has led to collapse time and time again. Treating them better at the cost of percentages of profit to already wealthy people, agreeing to their value when the labor is something you need for your business to function, has ZERO downside except to the egos of megalomaniacs who hoard wealth.
 
Income they didn't have before the job either. They don't end up worse off than they were without the job. When people refer to the business owner assuming the risk, they mean you start out in the red and have expenses to pay before you get anything. You could make good money, or you could make less than you owe and work with nothing to show for it.
Yes and many businesses fail but people don't need owners to do work. Owners need workers to make money and if their business succeeds they continue to make lots of money while doing a smaller and smaller share of the labor. That is a pyramid distribution and in the US at least it's been increasing for several decades. I've never worked anywhere where the owner/managers were wholly necessary for the day-to-day. Not to say there aren't decisions don't that need to be make nor logistics to take care of but no one gets exorbitantly wealthy purely of their own accord and when you dig into say, the Bezos' and Musk's of the world there's often a lot of favorable circumstance and family money that went into them even being able to take such risks. Once that ship is off the ground the income distribution keeps going to the top regardless of amount of work those folks are actually doing at that point (which isn't to say none of them work hard, some definitely do, but when you look at the income gaps between say, CEOs and their workers it reeeaaally makes you start to ask a few questions).

When the layoffs occurred in 2008 it was the people doing the work who lost their jobs, and yes, that has consequences, there is great risk in being working class. The, we'll call it, "managerial class" was largely unaffected. Where's all the risk besides the initial investment? It's all upside after that. All the richest people got richer in the last three years and when their business/bank is big enough, they can be, "too big to fail", meanwhile Debbie and Jimmy maybe get unemployment and people bitching that they're entitled. When there's hardship it's the workers who sufferh; owners, capitalists, don't typically lay themselves off. It's like a casino, the house always wins. Once you get to a certain level of money and power the risk for your actions diminishes the higher up the pyramid you go. And, of course, the oligarchs deflect to those with no money and no power and we complain about welfare queens or whatever.

There's some videos where billionaires admit the grift and say the quiet part out loud, like how there needs to be a certain amount of unemployment to keep a level of desperation among the working class so they can suppress wages, because, ya know, they don't have enough goddamn money.

But, it's fine. Greed eventually eats itself and as the working class deteriorates we'll see where this little experiment goes. When things get lopsided enough society destabilizes. We have enough distractions and just enough comfort and division. For meow.

All that said, I don't hate all business owners nor think they're lazy, many are very industrious, at least to a point, but employees absolutely do take risks working for them. We see it every time the economy tanks or someone comes home crying cuz they're burned out but need the benefits of their job but work in hell.
 
Income they didn't have before the job either. They don't end up worse off than they were without the job. When people refer to the business owner assuming the risk, they mean you start out in the red and have expenses to pay before you get anything. You could make good money, or you could make less than you owe and work with nothing to show for it.

It would be a risk if you had to give your paychecks back if the company went out of business, or you work for free until the company's debts are paid off, but nobody's demanding that. You're paid for the hours you work no matter what

Lolwut?

Dumbass to homeless people: "Bruh, remaining eating out of dumpsters isnt really a risk, I mean it's not gonna get any WORSE for you."
 
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