Change My Mind: A Society Cannot "Work" Itself to Equality

[Patrick Jane]

It unescapable... people are made different

I have twin daughters (fraternal) in High School

- One is highly motivated. Straight A's, In Theater (often after school & weekends) and works 2-3 days per week. She's extremely busy, but just makes it work
- The other is very unmotivated. Doesn't work or have school activities. Plays video games non-stop (except when I ground her). Struggles with school and misses homework assignments all the time.

They were raised in identical settings. Same room, same school, mutual friends (until High School).

All you can do offer equal opportunities for everyone. But they have to want it... you can't make someone be successful.

I'm really struggling with the unmotivated daughter. I was never that way... so its hard for me to understand. I would have freaked the fuck out if I just missed turning in assignments. She's very smart... but no work ethic. Maybe she needs to find her thing to makes her get up in the morning. But I can only do so much. Grounding her from video games and the computer didn't work. I'm on the verge of completely shutting her phone down next... except for texting and phone calls. But it has zero effect. She sees a therapist. Apparently, I'm not able to understand why she is struggling. Which is true... but I haven't heard anything to explain why she is.

lol... Sorry for the rant. It's been difficult.

Keep in mind that some people are happy being unambitious.

 

[Scerpi]

Keep in mind that some people are happy being unambitious.

Then don't be envious of the people who are...

 

[jeff7b9]

Agreed. Equity is promoted as lifting people up that need help to get them to equal footing but it's looking at the issue the wrong way. The classic example is the fence picture:

The idea is that the short person needs more help than the others to be equal. Instead, what the picture should show is there should be no fence or a chain-link fence - that is EQUALITY. Everyone has the same opportunity. When you are for equity, you are giving people more chances and opportunity than others based on race, religion, sex, etc. That's discrimination and wrong.

If you want true equality, you remove as many barriers as possible to help people. Equity is helping one group of people while discriminating against another.

The way I heard that wraps it up well:

Society never LIFTS us up to equity.

But there have been some attempts to CHOP US DOWN to equity.


How did you post that image in war room?

I have a cute one demonstrating my point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRightCantMeme/s/slkWBr9hIb

 

[jeff7b9]

It unescapable... people are made different

I have twin daughters (fraternal) in High School

- One is highly motivated. Straight A's, In Theater (often after school & weekends) and works 2-3 days per week. She's extremely busy, but just makes it work
- The other is very unmotivated. Doesn't work or have school activities. Plays video games non-stop (except when I ground her). Struggles with school and misses homework assignments all the time.

They were raised in identical settings. Same room, same school, mutual friends (until High School).

All you can do offer equal opportunities for everyone. But they have to want it... you can't make someone be successful.

I'm really struggling with the unmotivated daughter. I was never that way... so its hard for me to understand. I would have freaked the fuck out if I just missed turning in assignments. She's very smart... but no work ethic. Maybe she needs to find her thing to makes her get up in the morning. But I can only do so much. Grounding her from video games and the computer didn't work. I'm on the verge of completely shutting her phone down next... except for texting and phone calls. But it has zero effect. She sees a therapist. Apparently, I'm not able to understand why she is struggling. Which is true... but I haven't heard anything to explain why she is.

lol... Sorry for the rant. It's been difficult.

How.about art or music for the "slacker" daughter?

Or Maybe game design?

 

[Patrick Jane]

Then don't be envious of the people who are...

I agree. My family always verbally berates me because i'm overqualified for my job but refuse to take any other job offers. It's like they fail to understand that i prefer doing work i find easy and stress-free over exploiting every advancement opportunity. I won't complain that my boss gets more money than me for doing more stressful work than me. Jealous lazy bums need to learn to know their role and shut their mouth.

 

[Scerpi]

How.about art or music for the "slacker" daughter?

Or Maybe game design?

She does enjoy art. She's taking art at school. I bought her a drawing tablet that works solo or connected to a PC.

It seems like she's really enjoys it, but its not really a passion for her (yet). That may change though.

Either way, I've had the discussion that sometimes you have to do shit you don't like. IE - School now... but later in the life if she wants to be artist, she'll still need a job to help subsidize her art until it can support her.

I'll take any advice though. Grounding her should be my last option.... It doesn't work anyway

 

[Sinister]

She does enjoy art. She's taking art at school. I bought her a drawing tablet that works solo or connected to a PC.

It seems like she's really enjoys it, but its not really a passion for her (yet). That may change though.

Either way, I've had the discussion that sometimes you have to do shit you don't like. IE - School now... but later in the life if she wants to be artist, she'll still need a job to help subsidize her art until it can support her.

I'll take any advice though. Grounding her should be my last option.... It doesn't work anyway

My oldest cannot stand school and would much rather spend all day trying to draw, or dance, or exercise, than reciting what he considers nonsense facts all day. I was similar but eventually grew out of it when I hit college (something about college just jived with me even though I went to an Art school, it was regimented but I preferred the ideas, where grade school always felt like being programmed). Hes only 10 and my wife and I have already decided that as long as he eventually graduates we're happy. Right now the most important thing I see is teaching him to be cunning andresponsible, to always have a plan B and to maximize his resources and grow them. He seems pretty committed to being a boxer (by his own choice, I've never told him he had to be or even should be), but I want to make sure he's not rendered broke and useless after his career, and is so secure he can exit any time and pursue another interest.

Right now we are visiting Florida as I have an Aunt who is passing away (she has ALS). Seeing her in Hospice in a sub-par facility because she never saved money or advanced her career when she was at her peak is a cold hard reality-check. After years of hovering around lower-management jobs in retail and fast food, she finally got one of those scam degrees from.TV advertised "Colleges" but surprisingly it worked for her and she became a medical billing specialist for a major Hospital in Virginia, then transferred back to Florida when some Family eventually moved back. She functioned well in that environment but was just not very responsible. Florida has put my Mother through the ringer with regards to what to do with her ever since she got sick, as we arent wealthy and it was just she and my Mother, who has to work to keep the Family house. Essentially there was zero assistance, and red tape with disability, health care, even her social security was very difficult to get.

This is going to lead to a lot of conversations with the kids to prevent them from getting near the end and thinking: "I have nothing."

 

[Scerpi]

My oldest cannot stand school and would much rather spend all day trying to draw, or dance, or exercise, than reciting what he considers nonsense facts all day. I was similar but eventually grew out of it when I hit college (something about college just jived with me even though I went to an Art school, it was regimented but I preferred the ideas, where grade school always felt like being programmed). Hes only 10 and my wife and I have already decided that as long as he eventually graduates we're happy. Right now the most important thing I see is teaching him to be cunning andresponsible, to always have a plan B and to maximize his resources and grow them. He seems pretty committed to being a boxer (by his own choice, I've never told him he had to be or even should be), but I want to make sure he's not rendered broke and useless after his career, and is so secure he can exit any time and pursue another interest.

Right now we are visiting Florida as I have an Aunt who is passing away (she has ALS). Seeing her in Hospice in a sub-par facility because she never saved money or advanced her career when she was at her peak is a cold hard reality-check. After years of hovering around lower-management jobs in retail and fast food, she finally got one of those scam degrees from.TV advertised "Colleges" but surprisingly it worked for her and she became a medical billing specialist for a major Hospital in Virginia, then transferred back to Florida when some Family eventually moved back. She functioned well in that environment but was just not very responsible. Florida has put my Mother through the ringer with regards to what to do with her ever since she got sick, as we arent wealthy and it was just she and my Mother, who has to work to keep the Family house. Essentially there was zero assistance, and red tape with disability, health care, even her social security was very difficult to get.

This is going to lead to a lot of conversations with the kids to prevent them from getting near the end and thinking: "I have nothing."

Its crazy to me how my twins are so opposite...

The one is already set on becoming a Pediatrician. She'll stay with me after graduation and go to a Community College for her 2 year. Texas has a good program of having those credits transfer to a University like A&M, UH or UT. She's always been a planner...

Best I'm hoping for the other is to just graduate and get a job doing something. I'm not going to push college on her until she finds her path. Maybe working for a couple years after high school will bring something. Or maybe she'll find her inspiration

I changed majors twice in college, so I didn't graduate until I was 25 with my Engineering degree. Back then, I always felt like I was behind as my friends were already graduating and starting their careers. In the end, it didn't matter, but the voice in your head isn't always your friend.

 

[Sinister]

Its crazy to me how my twins are so opposite...

The one is already set on becoming a Pediatrician. She'll stay with me after graduation and go to a Community College for her 2 year. Texas has a good program of having those credits transfer to a University like A&M, UH or UT. She's always been a planner...

Best I'm hoping for the other is to just graduate and get a job doing something. I'm not going to push college on her until she finds her path. Maybe working for a couple years after high school will bring something. Or maybe she'll find her inspiration

I changed majors twice in college, so I didn't graduate until I was 25 with my Engineering degree. Back then, I always felt like I was behind as my friends were already graduating and starting their careers. In the end, it didn't matter, but the voice in your head isn't always your friend.

I hear ya, I also Coach a lot of similar kids including a set of twins with opposite personalities. Supportive is the best thing you can be, as I'm sure you've likely already realized. You can encourage, provide ideas, and even instruction...or relate your experience of being unsettled and feeling behind (me, too. My Mother used to get on me because my friends who I could out-debate got full ride scholarships and I didn't because I hated school), but ultimately she'll decide.

I will say by my experience most kids and adults I ever met who seemed aimless just had no real support when it came to the thing they REALLY wanted to do. They somehow got to feeling silly about it, like no one took it seriously. I'd have started my boxing career almost a decade earlier if I hadnt been living with a Step-Father who always said the "real Sports" were all the ones I didnt like.

 

[lowlife]

I don’t think the majority of people want wage equality across the board. You want a floor for able bodied people who do work, with debate on what that should be. And then you get arguments against if there should be a ceiling.

Bringing this up because I think the premise is strawmanning the idea that a more productive society wouldn’t have additional benefits. Like I mentioned above, I think the goal should be to share prosperity across society but it shouldn’t be seen from a limited pie perspective. If everyone gets richer but the 1% gets 10% more rich than the rest, I would take that vs no one getting richer. Inequality isn’t always a problem if the floor issue is addressed.

Well said. Looking at the arguments in this thread and some of the emotional responses I think most don't understand this idea; we should be more focused on fair distribution and an ever increasing quality of life for our society in general, as technology makes us more productive and prosperous. I don't understand how we can have a healthy society where there are a handful of people getting astronomically wealthy (Bezos, Gates, Musk, etc) while at the same time the majority of the world's population continues to suffer reduced purchasing power and quality of life. If I have to be more frugal and restrict my life more in order to purchase a home than my parents did, is that ok? Is that the direction we want to be going?...And who here is saying we should all be paid the same regardless of what we do or don't do? That's ridiculous.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Agreed. Equity is promoted as lifting people up that need help to get them to equal footing but it's looking at the issue the wrong way. The classic example is the fence picture:

The idea is that the short person needs more help than the others to be equal. Instead, what the picture should show is there should be no fence or a chain-link fence - that is EQUALITY. Everyone has the same opportunity. When you are for equity, you are giving people more chances and opportunity than others based on race, religion, sex, etc. That's discrimination and wrong.

If you want true equality, you remove as many barriers as possible to help people. Equity is helping one group of people while discriminating against another.

Not sure if your intention is accuracy or propaganda, but just FYI, that's definitely not what people mean when they talk about "equity." There isn't any actual, consistently applyied distinction between "equity" and "equality," but proponents use it to mean "the good kind of equality" and opponents use it to mean "the bad kind of equality."

The idea that there's a clear difference between equality of opportunity and outcomes is also false, but equality of opportunity is extremely radical itself, and there is no significant group pushing for it. If you look at political platforms, you see that some politicians want to move a little bit toward increased equality of opportunity and others want to move toward less equality of opportunity. Just for example, there is no one saying that poor kids should have the same quality education as rich kids.

 

[IDL]

The way I heard that wraps it up well:

Society never LIFTS us up to equity.

But there have been some attempts to CHOP US DOWN to equity.


How did you post that image in war room?

I have a cute one demonstrating my point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRightCantMeme/s/slkWBr9hIb

Indeed trying to engineer equity is kinda like telling a logger to make all the trees the same height because you have some utopian vision of a forest where no tree is shorter than the other.

Lowest common denominator is your only realistic solution.

 

[Scerpi]

The way I heard that wraps it up well:

Society never LIFTS us up to equity.

But there have been some attempts to CHOP US DOWN to equity.


How did you post that image in war room?

I have a cute one demonstrating my point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRightCantMeme/s/slkWBr9hIb

Right Click -> Copy Image Address

Paste into the "Insert Image" icon in the menu bar