Why do Central Asian Countries produce such great Wrestlers and Fighters

[avenue94]

You know very well these fighters eat, sleep, pray, train and go home to their goats. That is their lifestyle. You're not going to hear about one of them going on a coke and hookers binge anytime soon.

Yes, as does Michael Chandler, Frankie Edgar, and hundreds of other elite fighters. You are trying to draw a line to causation when there barely is even correlation. And my guy, I've seen plenty of devout fighters of all faiths miss weight or show up unprepared for a bout.

Even the weight cutting thing you talk about is some form of extreme dedication. They are draining themselves to cut lower than they should.

Khabib and Islam have missed weight/come very close several times. That's my point, this mythical Islamic dedication to training suddenly vanished at the most grueling part of camp. It's not a knock on Islam of these fighters, it's just pointing out that attributing an athlete's discipline to their faith is comically unsupported. Where are all these elite combat sport athletes from Indonesia and India, either of which boasts dozens or hundreds of orders more debout Muslims?

 

[fica]

Yes, as does Michael Chandler, Frankie Edgar, and hundreds of other elite fighters. You are trying to draw a line to causation when there barely is even correlation. And my guy, I've seen plenty of devout fighters of all faiths miss weight or show up unprepared for a bout.

Khabib and Islam have missed weight/come very close several times. That's my point, this mythical Islamic dedication to training suddenly vanished at the most grueling part of camp. It's not a knock on Islam of these fighters, it's just pointing out that attributing an athlete's discipline to their faith is comically unsupported. Where are all these elite combat sport athletes from Indonesia and India, either of which boasts dozens or hundreds of orders more debout Muslims?

Islam has lot to do with it. You are focused humble but at same time warrior and believe in God help.

 

[avenue94]

Islam has lot to do with it. You are focused humble but at same time warrior and believe in God help.

That describes nearly every major religion, monotheistic or polytheisc lol. Again, why does Indonesia not produce elite combat sports athletes left and right? It's a significantly more religious nation than Dagestan or similar regions.

 

[theincognito]

Yes, as does Michael Chandler, Frankie Edgar, and hundreds of other elite fighters. You are trying to draw a line to causation when there barely is even correlation. And my guy, I've seen plenty of devout fighters of all faiths miss weight or show up unprepared for a bout.

No, that's not the argument I made at all. I said from the beginning that coming from that culture helps but is not a main factor.

Fighters like Michael Chandler and Frankie Edgar, when they were 21 and all their friends were going out to bars and clubs every weekend, probably had a harder time staying disciplined than Khabib and Islam, wouldn't you say? That's the kind of way I credited it with helping.

 

[Noraaq]

That describes nearly every major religion, monotheistic or polytheisc lol. Again, why does Indonesia not produce elite combat sports athletes left and right? It's a significantly more religious nation than Dagestan or similar regions.

Because combat sports are not embedded into Arab/indonesian/malaysia/etc culture like it has been passed down from the Persians/Soviets into the caucasus/west and central asia. The soviet system + iranian wrestling tradition + strict Islamic discipline is a strong combination for producing mentally tough, highly technical, and disciplined fighters. Its really foolish to try and debate it at this point.

 

[avenue94]

No, that's not the argument I made at all. I said from the beginning that coming from that culture helps but is not a main factor.

Fighters like Michael Chandler and Frankie Edgar, when they were 21 and all their friends were going out to bars and clubs every weekend, probably had a harder time staying disciplined than Khabib and Islam, wouldn't you say? That's the kind of way I credited it with helping.

Sure I agree with saying, on a macro level, discipline helps produce great athletes. but attributing it to a specific religion is silly and unsupported by reality.

The soviet system + iranian wrestling tradition + strict Islamic discipline is a strong combination for producing mentally tough, highly technical, and disciplined fighters. Its really foolish to try and debate it at this point.

Right...so the primary factor in the abundance of combat sports athletes from certain regions is the economic infrastructure in place that trains and nurtures athletes. Not a religion.

 

[Sivo The Ram]

well the caucasus aren't considered central asia

 

[Noraaq]

Sure I agree with saying, on a macro level, discipline helps produce great athletes. but attributing it to a specific religion is silly and unsupported by reality.

Agree that it is silly to attribute most of the success to Islam. But religion is a cog in the system, and its an important one. The formula is Soviet sytem + religious discipline (be it Christian or Muslim) + a cultural norms

The formula is proven. Take a look at guys like Fedor, Usyk, Lomachenko. They are the Christian Soviet equivalent to the Muslim Soviets like Khabib, Beterbiev, Makhachev. The reason for regions like Dagestan/Chechnya producing more top fighters is that their populations are generally far more devout in their beliefs and traditions

 

[avenue94]

Agree that it is silly to attribute most of the success to Islam. The formula is Soviet sytem + religious discipline (be it Christian or Muslim) + a cultural norms

I really doubt that you would find a significant correlation between athletic performance and religiousness.

The formula is proven. Take a look at guys like Fedor, Usyk, Lomachenko. They are the Christian Soviet equivalent to the Islamic Soviets like Khabib, Beterbiev, Makhachev.

This is just horrid logic. You're conflating anecdotal evidence with actual statistical correlation and it's very apparent you have no familiarity with basic stats.

The reason for regions like Dagestan/Chechnya producing more top fighters is that their populations are generally far more devout in their beliefs.

No, it's literally because these regions economically incentivize and support the development of certain athletes. Just like America incentivizes college grads, or going back a few decades, lawyers. Ditto with Cuba and boxers (Cuba was officially atheist until a relatively recently).

 

[marvinparsons]

Agree that it is silly to attribute most of the success to Islam. But religion is a cog in the system, and its an important one. The formula is Soviet sytem + religious discipline (be it Christian or Muslim) + a cultural norms

The formula is proven. Take a look at guys like Fedor, Usyk, Lomachenko. They are the Christian Soviet equivalent to the Muslim Soviets like Khabib, Beterbiev, Makhachev. The reason for regions like Dagestan/Chechnya producing more top fighters is that their populations are generally far more devout in their beliefs and traditions

That is not the reason. The reason is that wrestling is the top sport in Dagestan/Chechnya, but it isn't a top sport in the rest of Russia. Wrestling is literally the #1 sport in Dagestan/Chechnya. A quick Google search shows that in Russia as a whole, football, ice hockey, handball, basketball, futsal, boxing, auto racing, volleyball, track, boxing, tennis and others are more popular than wrestling. None of which are precursors to MMA.

There are no Dagestani's in the NHL, NBA, or on the WTA tour. This has zero to do with their religion, the same as Canada's religion has nothing to do with being great at hockey and the religion in New Zealand has nothing to do with them being amazing at rugby. And why guys who were good at BJJ did well in early MMA and were shocker, from Brazil, which had nothing to do with their strict Catholic upbringing. If Alex Ovechkin had gotten into wrestling he would have probably murked the Dagestanis, all while being haram.

This is a pure fantasy and projection by people claiming that Islam is the reason for their success. There's zero proof and what proof we do have points in the opposite direction: a sport's popularity + genetics (Sri Lankans love rugby, but are not genetically well suited to the sport so don't do well, for example).

I guess loving Mao is what makes you good at ping pong too, not the fact that 200M of 1B people in China play ping pong.

Source: The most popular sport in Russia is soccer.[1] "Football topped the list of the most popular sports in Russia" . Ice hockey came in second with handball, basketball, futsal, boxing, auto racing, volleyball, athletics, tennis, and chess rounding out the top ten rankings.[2] Other popular sports include bandy, biathlon, figure skating, weightlifting, gymnastics, wrestling, martial arts, rugby union, and skiing.[3]

 

[Noraaq]

That is not the reason. The reason is that wrestling is the top sport in Dagestan/Chechnya, but it isn't a top sport in the rest of Russia. Wrestling is literally the #1 sport in Dagestan/Chechnya. A quick Google search shows that in Russia as a whole, football, ice hockey, handball, basketball, futsal, boxing, auto racing, volleyball, track, boxing, tennis and others are more popular than wrestling. None of which are precursors to MMA.

There are no Dagestani's in the NHL, NBA, or on the WTA tour. This has zero to do with their religion, the same as Canada's religion has nothing to do with being great at hockey and the religion in New Zealand has nothing to do with them being amazing at rugby. And why guys who were good at BJJ did well in early MMA and were shocker, from Brazil, which had nothing to do with their strict Catholic upbringing. If Alex Ovechkin had gotten into wrestling he would have probably murked the Dagestanis, all while being haram.

ex-Soviet bloc nations are not only good at wrestling, they are exceptional at most martial arts. Kazakhs/Uzbeks/Ukraine/Russians/Georgians/Armenians or Azeris can be found at the top of all combat sports. They all have the same thing in common in that they implement a soviet system, and they are devoutly religious.

This is a pure fantasy and projection by people claiming that Islam is the reason for their success. There's zero proof and what proof we do have points in the opposite direction: a sport's popularity + genetics (Sri Lankans love rugby, but are not genetically well suited to the sport so don't do well, for example).

I literally said that Islam is not the main reason for their success. Having strong religious beliefs though, whether devout Christiam or Muslim, can be a beneficial support system to help push through pain, fear, and adversity. Most great fighters have attested to this.

I guess loving Mao is what makes you good at ping pong too, not the fact that 200M of 1B people in China play ping pong.

Source: The most popular sport in Russia is soccer.[1] "Football topped the list of the most popular sports in Russia" . Ice hockey came in second with handball, basketball, futsal, boxing, auto racing, volleyball, athletics, tennis, and chess rounding out the top ten rankings.[2] Other popular sports include bandy, biathlon, figure skating, weightlifting, gymnastics, wrestling, martial arts, rugby union, and skiing.[3]

Those others sports are not comparable to fighting, which is more than just sport.

 

[Can’t Handle My Riddum]

The fuck are you even going on about?

You know very well these fighters eat, sleep, pray, train and go home to their goats. That is their lifestyle. You're not going to hear about one of them going on a coke and hookers binge anytime soon.

Even the weight cutting thing you talk about is some form of extreme dedication. They are draining themselves to cut lower than they should.

Coke and hookers produced one of the greatest fighters the world has ever seen in Jon Jones.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

I trained for a couple of years with Uzbeks and Kazakhs and an Iranian coach who calls himself a free man & not a muslim. It's more cultural than buying into an abrahamic fan fiction.

 

[fica]

Coke and hookers produced one of the greatest fighters the world has ever seen in Jon Jones.

You forgot PEDs as well

 

[Genki Sudo]

Yes, as does Michael Chandler, Frankie Edgar, and hundreds of other elite fighters. You are trying to draw a line to causation when there barely is even correlation. And my guy, I've seen plenty of devout fighters of all faiths miss weight or show up unprepared for a bout.

Khabib and Islam have missed weight/come very close several times. That's my point, this mythical Islamic dedication to training suddenly vanished at the most grueling part of camp. It's not a knock on Islam of these fighters, it's just pointing out that attributing an athlete's discipline to their faith is comically unsupported. Where are all these elite combat sport athletes from Indonesia and India, either of which boasts dozens or hundreds of orders more debout Muslims?

No one said that muslims are infallible and that being a muslim is a prerequisite for success.

As for indian Muslim theres no real wrestling culture in india... Noy to the level u have in the usa/iran/russia etc.

Being Muslim doesn't automatically mean yku are going to be good at combat sports... But the lack of vices does lend well to combat sports.

 

[avenue94]

No one said that muslims are infallible and that being a muslim is a prerequisite for success.

As for indian Muslim theres no real wrestling culture in india... Noy to the level u have in the usa/iran/russia etc.

Being Muslim doesn't automatically mean yku are going to be good at combat sports... But the lack of vices does lend well to combat sports.

It can help, it can also hurt. Again, there's no systemic evidence to support the fact that combat athletes have less vices than the average person. I'm pretty sure most folks would consider abusing performance enhancing drugs to be a vice, yet it's quite common in high level athletics. Ditto with cheating and divorced athletes, run ins with the law etc. Not to mention people almost always underreport their vices, and athletes are no exception.

If I were to look at the list of best boxers of all time (larger sample size, plus people who are dead means most of their vices are clearer in hindsight), you wouldn't really find saints at the top of the list.

 

[GOATtalks]

Dagestan and Chechnya aren’t in Central Asia

Technically they aren’t, but they’re pretty close geographically and culturally they share a lot of similarities with Central Asia countries

 

[Thawing Mammoth]

What I wanna know is how do they get their pecs so square

 

[Genki Sudo]

It can help, it can also hurt. Again, there's no systemic evidence to support the fact that combat athletes have less vices than the average person. I'm pretty sure most folks would consider abusing performance enhancing drugs to be a vice, yet it's quite common in high level athletics. Ditto with cheating and divorced athletes, run ins with the law etc. Not to mention people almost always underreport their vices, and athletes are no exception.

If I were to look at the list of best boxers of all time (larger sample size, plus people who are dead means most of their vices are clearer in hindsight), you wouldn't really find saints at the top of the list.

Thr anecdotal evidence is quite apparent given that a small group of Conservative Muslim s from the caucasus have done disproportionately well. Again no one said theyre infallible but when you dont partake in destructive and counterproductive habits it is more conducive to sporting success. The main anchor these lot have is their faith. Sure we need a nuanced look but their spartan lifestyle works well.

 

[avenue94]

Thr anecdotal evidence is quite apparent given that a small group of Conservative Muslim s from the caucasus have done disproportionately well. Again no one said theyre infallible but when you dont partake in destructive and counterproductive habits it is more conducive to sporting success. The main anchor these lot have is their faith. Sure we need a nuanced look but their spartan lifestyle works well.

How have they done disproportionately well? They may well have, but you're falling prey to basic selection bias. People remember good fighters, not the trove of less memorable ones who wash out. And Dagestan, for example, has its fair share of unremarkable fighters.

Obviously, living a clean life is beneficial, but there are plenty of athletes where self-destructive habits are part of them. The same obsession that makes them great fighters can easily be a vice. That's why I don't put much stock on morals and such being the major factor when we're looking at the sport systematically. I'll also add that one of the classic traits of great fighters is the willingness to do everything possible to win...aka cheating. Think GSP cleverly grabbing Bisping's shorts so hard he broke his cup.

Faith can be an anchor, as can many other things, some fighters need isolation, some need to blow off steam. It's reductive to say religion in of itself is a major determining factor of athletic success. Since you metnioned the spartan lifestyle, one of the classic challenges many religious Cubans have faced after defecting and trunign pro is not being able to cope wtih the newfound freedom and riches. And you can't tell me Guillermo Rigondeaux was less disciplined than Khabib in his prime.