Using a Shell or Crab Type Defense in MMA / KB

[Bay Area]

Standard issue canned reply to attempt to set aside that someone is successful with a method one doesn't approve of. You may want to consider that people are drawn to styles that they like and that this may have something to do with why they fight the way they do. If you made Drunken Gung Fu successful by dedicating 30 years of your life to it, you'd be extraordinary. Being extraordinary perhaps should be encouraged more in our Sports if we want them to appeal to people who otherwise wouldn't have much interest in seeing people always fight the same ways. If you don't like a style, that's perfectly fine. But not everyone who actually fights is going to necessarily choose their style merely based on the possible downfalls of it. Some fighters (and these ones tend to end up being the best) are going to attempt to do what majority thinks they shouldn't.

FWIW, there is no "standard efficient MMA stance," almost every athletes stance comes from different disciplines. If you're going to argue something, at least argue it with a notion that actually exists.

We are talking about two different things here. I am talking about being effiecient and leaving less holes to exploit. You seem to be talking about being pleasing to the audience, and attracting more viewers, and doing things different for the sake of being different. I guess in that case, it depends what the individuals goals are.

And BTW, there is a standard efficient MMA stance. Maybe you could have said what you said 20 years ago during the style vs style days. Walk into any professional MMA training camp, and they have that template stance ready for you to use.

 

[flanellograf]

To make this clear, I don't think BA is arguing for a uniform style necessarily, just as SAAMAG said, more neutral beginning positions that are thought of as less risky. I only pointed out that there's no uniform stance like that because every single time someone has a stance that's slightly more one way or another, it gets argued against. Stance, while being about having good positions, is also just as much about the fighter being comfortable.

Well, I was extrapolating. A lot of people seem to want to keep other people in the mold of whatever convention they think is best/proven.

Also, the most common stance in mma most likely evolved because of takedowns and wrestlers dominating. Now that people are getting pretty proficient across the board at stopping them, variations and other stances (and styles) seem to become more and more common. I mean, for example, who ever thought that a taekwondo-based style would ever become successful (obviously it depends on the individual, but still).

 

[thugpoet]

I bet I could get Dunken Kung Fu to work in MMA too if I dedicate 30 years of my life to it. Or I could take a more effecient path.

something doesn't become more efficient simply because you say it so...

MT, karate, bjj, judo wrestling all had to be modified to fit MMA. Boxing is no different.

again its simple without the crab or old school boxing principles in general we see dudes getting dropped by head kicks all the time. we see dudes get their lead led kicked to shreds. But now its a problem if one wants to fight with proven boxing mythology?

the so called limitations of the stance literally go hand and hand with the limitations of all other stances. There is always a risk of getting kicked in the head and there is always a risk of getting your ass Koed. The stance is not going to be the problem, its going to be the fighter who is implementing it.

People used to say karate wouldn't work in mma until we seen the dragon start his run of destruction

 

[SAAMAG]

That's where the "work" comes into play. Some boxer's don't even like the crab defense because of it's perceived difficulty in becoming efficient with it.

The stance and defense style can be used, but it's just going to take time to develop in the varying environment. You have to consider what structural strengths weaknesses are in the stance, as well as what best attributes of the fighter are and vice versa. Put into practice, it becomes refined over time.

Ivica is the closest thing to making that happen that I've come across in the MMA arena. No one in the big leagues does it. So it'll be interesting to see him develop should he choose to continue to share his experiences.

 

[Sinister]

We are talking about two different things here. I am talking about being effiecient and leaving less holes to exploit. You seem to be talking about being pleasing to the audience, and attracting more viewers, and doing things different for the sake of being different. I guess in that case, it depends what the individuals goals are.

And BTW, there is a standard efficient MMA stance. Maybe you could have said what you said 20 years ago during the style vs style days. Walk into any professional MMA training camp, and they have that template stance ready for you to use.

I work with MMA fighters, no two of them stand the same.

And no, we're not talking about two different things. We're talking about the way fighters fight. What I'm saying to you is that how a fighter fights isn't always based on what you're saying it should be based on. I'm not going to argue efficiency with you anymore because your mind is made-up there. What I'm saying is that fighters have their own ideas on what they want to do. Ivica is an example, you can say everything you want about what flaws he has as a fighter, but you're not going to convince him to abandon his style. And he's ACTUALLY fighting, not just discussing efficacy. He's taking the risks. At that point it becomes the job of his trainer to facilitate what he wants to do (his style) with maximum efficacy, whatever that means. And I say whatever that means because it's not always going to be the same.

 

[flanellograf]

That's where the "work" comes into play. Some boxer's don't even like the crab defense because of it's perceived difficulty in becoming efficient with it.

The stance and defense style can be used, but it's just going to take time to develop in the varying environment. You have to consider what structural strengths weaknesses are in the stance, as well as what best attributes of the fighter are and vice versa. Put into practice, it becomes refined over time.

Ivica is the closest thing to making that happen that I've come across in the MMA arena. No one in the big leagues does it. So it'll be interesting to see him develop should he choose to continue to share his experiences.

Well, the australian TUF winner whatshisface used it at the last event.
Anderson has briefly used it also (albeit he tends to drop both hands ).
But I guess you meant regularly, then yes, agreed.

 

[Sinister]

Well, I was extrapolating. A lot of people seem to want to keep other people in the mold of whatever convention they think is best/proven.

Also, the most common stance in mma most likely evolved because of takedowns and wrestlers dominating. Now that people are getting pretty proficient across the board at stopping them, variations and other stances (and styles) seem to become more and more common. I mean, for example, who ever thought that a taekwondo-based style would ever become successful (obviously it depends on the individual, but still).

That's kind of what I'm getting at. Fighting is about the man as much as the "stance" or any other factor. In other words, too much focus is being put on small details at this point in the thread. There's no such thing as a perfect stance, perfect style, etc. Every guy I've ever seen who is "standard issue" anything is just that, a middle of the road fighter. I, personally, don't ever want the Sport to become full of those guys.

 

[SAAMAG]

I viewed some of the footage and while Ivica has an admirable career thus far, there are refinements missing. However I just wanted to note that this stuff you're saying is what I like even though we don't seem to agree based on my disagreement with BA's basic notions. But this shows you're thinking like an instructor, because that's largely what you do. Save for the last line. It's not Ivica's responsibility himself to look at Petrosyan, or even perhaps find someone who CAN refine that style to be more suitable to MMA, it's the responsibility of the head trainer. Unless he's flying mostly solo where boxing principals are concerned (which happens in MMA at the Professional level more than I'd like), of course. He gets quite a bit of good angles and positions, but doesn't always make optimal use of them. And refinement is needed to address the weaker positions, and what happens in the clinch, or how to not give up the outside angle (and thus, the back) so easily even from the beginning positions he uses. That refinement gets put into place, though, and you still have a guy who may win or lose a fight depending on how good the other guy is. But it'd be significantly more difficult to exploit any weaknesses of his positioning.

That's exactly why I said it the way I said it. From the respect that we don't know what his training is like or what sort of actual boxing training he's getting. Hence why I feel that looking to someone who is already good at using a bladed stance that takes into consideration kicks isn't a bad idea. True, it's the trainer's job to develop their fighter--but there's nothing wrong with the individual doing their own homework. It makes the individual think for themselves, helps to build new ideas and concepts. That's a good thing IMO.

Devante for example trains with anyone and everyone he can. He learns the attitudes, beliefs, techniques from a wide variety of individuals, instructors, schools, and so forth. He will use what I've taught him in those arenas with success or failure. He uses what he's learned from others with me in live sessions as well--with success or failure. We work out how things have been going. I give him my input afterwords and he runs with it or doesn't. No two people are the same, so in the same respect I encourage self discovery for individuals looking to expand their game.

Stance, while being about having good positions, is also just as much about the fighter being comfortable.

Good point. It's hard to run when your undies are rubbing your chode raw. Best to make sure you have some nice smooth wicking athletic underwear so that you can run/bike more comfortably.

But that's another reason why I'll give recommendation for things--again going back to Dev, he likes to fight with his hands in varying positions. I don't mind that because I do the same thing. But if I see a hole, I advise him of it and his options to fill it. Then we refine it in practice. I don't completely try to 180 someone who is already showing comfort in a stance and is able to perform with proper tech and concepts intact. Because going back to what was said before--even the great FMJ has gotten better with his own methods through the years.

 

[Ivica Truscek]

Unless he's flying mostly solo where boxing principals are concerned (which happens in MMA at the Professional level more than I'd like), of course.

Thats about how it is...

 

[a guy]

*Yawn* All of the things you posted could be accomplished with a regular linear boxing type stance like Gsp uses. Minus the disadvantages of crabbing up. So again, why do it if there are more efficient ways of doing things?

The crab leaves more options for counterpunching because it allows you to keep your weight back while moving in (which GSP pretty much never does, it's all pot shot jabs), lets the jab come from different angles, puts more potential power into the cross (which GSP's stance absolutely does not do) and gives an advantage in catching kicks, as Jukai pointed out. Other stances don't do all these things to the same extent.

We are talking about two different things here. I am talking about being effiecient and leaving less holes to exploit. You seem to be talking about being pleasing to the audience, and attracting more viewers, and doing things different for the sake of being different. I guess in that case, it depends what the individuals goals are.

And BTW, there is a standard efficient MMA stance. Maybe you could have said what you said 20 years ago during the style vs style days. Walk into any professional MMA training camp, and they have that template stance ready for you to use.

...Really? I don't believe you're qualified to evaluate the teaching of stances at any mma gym, nonetheless at a professional MMA training camp.

Again I was talking about Muay Thai not MMA. I have never done MMA. Let's be honest, the striking there aint all that.

There's a huge variety of stances in mma. Half the time you can guess what a guy you've never seen before is good at only based on the way he stands. Also, maybe the term "standard efficient stance" in most sports really means "the easiest to teach template that a coach can apply to most fighters with little extra work and good enough results".

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I'm both amused and incredulous about the idea of a "standard efficient MMA stance", considering how if you count the top guys in the sports had a diverse range of style to suit their own personal preference and have their own advantages/disadvantages. From Conor McGregor to Lyoto Machida to JDS....so on and so forth.

 

[Bay Area]

The crab leaves more options for counterpunching because it allows you to keep your weight back while moving in (which GSP pretty much never does, it's all pot shot jabs), lets the jab come from different angles, puts more potential power into the cross (which GSP's stance absolutely does not do) and gives an advantage in catching kicks, as Jukai pointed out. Other stances don't do all these things to the same extent.

I guess this is all that is left to say....

 

[a guy]

I guess this is all that is left to say....

Well I guess that settles it.

 

[sourdiesel209]

I'm both amused and incredulous about the idea of a "standard efficient MMA stance", considering how if you count the top guys in the sports had a diverse range of style to suit their own personal preference and have their own advantages/disadvantages. From Conor McGregor to Lyoto Machida to JDS....so on and so forth.

the best way to learn how to fight is to start from the beggining, from the standard stance and THEN after some testing and lots of sparring you can start switching it up to your preferences

 

[a guy]

the best way to learn how to fight is to start from the beggining, from the standard stance and THEN after some testing and lots of sparring you can start switching it up to your preferences

In mma, what exactly IS the standard stance?

 

[sourdiesel209]

In mma, what exactly IS the standard stance?

cody mckenzie

 

[Paradigm]

cody mckenzie

shit DID just get real...

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

First, Bay Area couldn't argue so he put up a video. Cute.
And Cody Mckenzie is an example of standard MMA stance? Really?

 

[thewhiteSRR]

First, Bay Area couldn't argue so he put up a video. Cute.
And Cody Mckenzie is an example of standard MMA stance? Really?

um cody mckenzie is one of the best strikers in the sport. Does everything textbook perfect.

 

[sourdiesel209]

First, Bay Area couldn't argue so he put up a video. Cute.
And Cody Mckenzie is an example of standard MMA stance? Really?

Actually, if you've seen his last fight vs Leonard Garcia, he was using a variation of the crab with success... so he is a good example of both :icon_lol: