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Krav Maga "clinch"/grab for knee strikes - is it effective?

lol at the beginning it looked like it was the whole forum vs me about the efficacy of KM, now i dont even know whos arguing for what and against who.
 
Didn't read the thread but for what it's worth, my Krav instructors used to say that Thai clinching someone will just result in a headbutt to the face. Hence the cinch they use where the head is to the side.
 
Haloom said:
Didn't read the thread but for what it's worth, my Krav instructors used to say that Thai clinching someone will just result in a headbutt to the face. Hence the cinch they use where the head is to the side.
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If you don't have control then yes. Double collar tie when it's locked should prevent this because your forearms are jammed into his collar bones so you control his shoulders and you have his chin crunched down into his chest so he can't even pick his head up to butt.

The worse point would be in the transition to getting to the double collar. A real common beginner mistake which will increase the likelihood of getting butted is reaching with both hands at once for the back of their head. Always do one at a time.
 
JohnSouth said:
George Zimmerman...Trayvon Martin...hope I don't have to go any further.

How do you get internet access living under a rock?
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I am not from the US, so I suppose this may have been why it got past me - even though I guess they had it on the news here too but not as often and not as part of the top news. Just googled it and now I am wiser. :wink:
 
Wrestlerrr said:
I am not from the US, so I suppose this may have been why it got past me - even though I guess they had it on the news here too but not as often and not as part of the top news. Just googled it and now I am wiser. :wink:
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That did not occur to me, sorry about that.
 
Haloom said:
Didn't read the thread but for what it's worth, my Krav instructors used to say that Thai clinching someone will just result in a headbutt to the face. Hence the cinch they use where the head is to the side.
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Your KM instructors are idiots who don't know what a Thai clinch is. There are variations, but in general, your head is locked between both of my forearms squeezing tight while skips knees are going into your ribs and face. And I'm going to drive you by the neck, left and right after every 2-3 knees to disorient you. You might be able to headbutt (as no technique is perfect), but chances are, you're going to get fucked up as most KM people can't fight for shit.
 
SummerStriker said:
There are different levels of fighting dirty. When I do small glove sparring, for my own amusement, when I come up against someone who fights with their hands open, I'll jab but instead of trying to hit their face, I'll grab a finger. If from free movement range I ripped someone's finger off sideways, he might have a problem: worst still if I were to dance off sideways, let him catch his breath, and then say, "check your finger bro," so that he gets the full experience of pain through the adrenaline.
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is that even within the allowed moves in your sparring? if so, remind me to never spar with you guys.

i hear its painful to grab the bottom of someone's rib cage with your fingers and yank. try that next time in the clinch and report back.
 
Paradigm said:
is that even within the allowed moves in your sparring? if so, remind me to never spar with you guys.

i hear its painful to grab the bottom of someone's rib cage with your fingers and yank. try that next time in the clinch and report back.
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I never hurt anyone when I was learning to catch fingers. You do it so fast that people don't have time to react, and in general, people freeze like you have their nuts so they don't spaz and hurt themselves either.

For people in our group, it was just done to new people to remind them, without hurting them, that they shouldn't spar with open hands. When visiting other gyms, I just did it to get good at it because I wanted to. I never asked what anyone thought. Everyone knew I was interested in NHB freestyle and put up with my attitude.

You can do a lot of stuff safely. I would do eye gouges by holding the back of their head with one hand and driving my thumb into their cheek with the other. I'd simulate head butts just by getting good head control in the clinch and putting my skull on their cheek. Then if I could hold control and make space to pop a hit, I'd know I had it and move on. Nut grabs are just done by grabbing the bottom of someone's shorts inside their leg, far from the jewels as possible. 12-6 elbows on the spine are just elbows to the flank of the edge of the back. Because the 12-6 elbows weren't hurting anyone, they would try to complete the take down, so you had to get off what you could and still block or sprawl (meaning TD defense could be even harder because you were trying to get off shots at the same time when possible). If I got someone on the ground and up against a wall, I'd put my hands on their head, cupping it from behind for safety, and smash them into the wall. In my opinion, all kicks to the inner thigh are simulating nut shots, along with a lot of punches to the gut from the clinch that I'd think of as a proxy for the low blow. I'd occasionally palm strike people in the face as a proxy for a finger rake. From any sort of side mount or mount, I wouldn't go for an Americana right away. If I got control of their arm, I'd bang it straight down on the big old mat 6-7 times, simulating smashing their arm to pieces against the sidewalk, again without hurting them (though maybe startling them).

95% of what we were doing though was just plan old MMA, made conservative by the stipulation that you had to try and avoid all that.

We wouldn't even stop sparring for any of this. There might be an acknowledgment of "got ya," but it wasn't treated with the respect of a submission. You just kept sparring.

New people with prior training would have the biggest problem with it, because it comes off as insulting, but no one forced them to take classes in a non-competition school that had full contact sparring. Anything else for me just wasn't intellectually satisfying, so I loved it.
 
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this thread is insane. A real roller coaster.

I started taking a Krav class about a year ago, mainly because it was closest martial arts school of any kind to my house, and they had a class available at the specific time I was available. At the time, my shift limited me to one night a week.

My work shift has since changed, and I'm going 2 to 3 nights a week. Honestly, I have mixed feelings about it. I'll try to make some bullet points. Keeping in mind this is coming from someone with no previous martial arts training. I don't get in fights, I wont pick fights, my only 'experience' is one violent fight as a teenager, slap boxing/boxing with untrained friends, and a lot of hours of bag work in my garage for fun. Which is to say, no experience.

-The belt ranking system seems to mean little. Based more on number of classes attended than demonstration of skill. There's two guys in the class with higher belts that appear to have skill.

-By my estimation, with only bag work in my garage, I shouldn't have better hands than people who have been at this class for a year or two, maybe more. Yet, I do. There are only two guys that I have problems with during "sparring"

-Like mentioned in other posts, minimal 'sparring'. 10 to 15 minutes a class, mild, and usually 'controlled'. Meaning we've been given a combination, and defense to work, taking turns.

-Minimal ground work. Occasional shrimping, falls, escaping mount, kicking from the ground, and trying to get up without getting hurt.

-A lot of choke/grab defenses. Again, due to my lack of experience in violent situations, I cant speak for their efficacy. A lot of it feels natural though.

-Multiple attacker situations. This is where is gets fun to me, and where I work the hardest. Working in a group of four or five people, one person getting 'attacked'. Sometimes the group is too nice and takes turns on you, other times they all go at once and its hopeless. It gets stressful and interesting.

-knife defense. All I can say is even if things go basically how they do in class, I'm still going to get cut all over my arms, at minimum.

-gun disarms. Ah.......Cant even say. I don't know that i would even try unless i was sure i was going to die anyways.


All said, I'm sure I would lose a fight against someone with comparable amount of time spent in an MMA gym. But, like I said, I'm not picking any fights. If I get in a fight its because someone is attacking me or my family. Hopefully, no MMA badasses pick a fight with me :icon_chee

I'm enjoying the class for the time being. Fun group of people, good workout, but at some point I know I'll have to venture into something else if I want to get any real striking or grappling skill.
 
oFUNGUSo said:
this thread is insane. A real roller coaster.

I started taking a Krav class about a year ago, mainly because it was closest martial arts school of any kind to my house, and they had a class available at the specific time I was available. At the time, my shift limited me to one night a week.

My work shift has since changed, and I'm going 2 to 3 nights a week. Honestly, I have mixed feelings about it. I'll try to make some bullet points. Keeping in mind this is coming from someone with no previous martial arts training. I don't get in fights, I wont pick fights, my only 'experience' is one violent fight as a teenager, slap boxing/boxing with untrained friends, and a lot of hours of bag work in my garage for fun. Which is to say, no experience.

-The belt ranking system seems to mean little. Based more on number of classes attended than demonstration of skill. There's two guys in the class with higher belts that appear to have skill.

-By my estimation, with only bag work in my garage, I shouldn't have better hands than people who have been at this class for a year or two, maybe more. Yet, I do. There are only two guys that I have problems with during "sparring"

-Like mentioned in other posts, minimal 'sparring'. 10 to 15 minutes a class, mild, and usually 'controlled'. Meaning we've been given a combination, and defense to work, taking turns.

-Minimal ground work. Occasional shrimping, falls, escaping mount, kicking from the ground, and trying to get up without getting hurt.

-A lot of choke/grab defenses. Again, due to my lack of experience in violent situations, I cant speak for their efficacy. A lot of it feels natural though.

-Multiple attacker situations. This is where is gets fun to me, and where I work the hardest. Working in a group of four or five people, one person getting 'attacked'. Sometimes the group is too nice and takes turns on you, other times they all go at once and its hopeless. It gets stressful and interesting.

-knife defense. All I can say is even if things go basically how they do in class, I'm still going to get cut all over my arms, at minimum.

-gun disarms. Ah.......Cant even say. I don't know that i would even try unless i was sure i was going to die anyways.


All said, I'm sure I would lose a fight against someone with comparable amount of time spent in an MMA gym. But, like I said, I'm not picking any fights. If I get in a fight its because someone is attacking me or my family. Hopefully, no MMA badasses pick a fight with me :icon_chee

I'm enjoying the class for the time being. Fun group of people, good workout, but at some point I know I'll have to venture into something else if I want to get any real striking or grappling skill.
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I thought the point of KM was to get home safely, not to get skilled at grappling or striking?
 
Paradigm said:
I thought the point of KM was to get home safely, not to get skilled at grappling or striking?
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true, i suppose. Id like to have decent skill at striking eventually though, hence why I will have to move on at some point.
 
oFUNGUSo said:
true, i suppose. Id like to have decent skill at striking eventually though, hence why I will have to move on at some point.
Click to expand...

I started with Krav and moved on to Muay Thai and do a little boxing (take some BJJ, but wanted to focus on MT). The other arts do everything better. A LOT better.

I found the choke/hold break drills to be useful. I liked the scenario training as well. But how much of that do you need/want to do? IMO it doesn't seem like an "art" or "system" or whatever that you should spend years dedicating your time to master. You may be a "master" at breaking chokes from behind and groin shots but that won't stop a better fighter from kicking your ass.

The school I trained at has a very good reputation in the area but no shit, 1-2 year Thai boxers with decent athletic ability would embarrass every guy in that gym. It's not that they aren't tough guys who could handle themselves because they could, it's just that I believe the other arts do it better.

Does anyone think a BJJ player can't handle any of the chokes and holds you train for in KM? Does anyone think you get better stand up training vs MT or boxing? MMA will simply make you a better fighter than KM will. If you want weapons defense training, which IMO isn't that useful unless you deal with violence as a profession, take seminars specific to that but learn to fight somewhere more competent.

Just my 2 cents.
 
kpt018 said:
I started with Krav and moved on to Muay Thai and do a little boxing (take some BJJ, but wanted to focus on MT). The other arts do everything better. A LOT better.

I found the choke/hold break drills to be useful. I liked the scenario training as well. But how much of that do you need/want to do? IMO it doesn't seem like an "art" or "system" or whatever that you should spend years dedicating your time to master. You may be a "master" at breaking chokes from behind and groin shots but that won't stop a better fighter from kicking your ass.

The school I trained at has a very good reputation in the area but no shit, 1-2 year Thai boxers with decent athletic ability would embarrass every guy in that gym. It's not that they aren't tough guys who could handle themselves because they could, it's just that I believe the other arts do it better.

Does anyone think a BJJ player can't handle any of the chokes and holds you train for in KM? Does anyone think you get better stand up training vs MT or boxing? MMA will simply make you a better fighter than KM will. If you want weapons defense training, which IMO isn't that useful unless you deal with violence as a profession, take seminars specific to that but learn to fight somewhere more competent.

Just my 2 cents.
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Lol I know better than to think that. I knew that going in, it was initially a choice of convenience going to this place. Actually wanted to take judo, but couldn't make it happen. I'll probably give this place another 6 months, then move on to something else.

I'm not super concerned with weather or not I'm getting the best possible training in existence, to be honest. Learn a little skill, get in better shape, relieve stress, have fun, etc.
 
jcandoitbig said:
in some scenarios you won't get home safely unless you're skilled in grappling/striking
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well, isnt that kind of the point? why not just good at striking/grappling instead of learning some watered down shit with awareness training?

may as well just carry sand in your pocket, a kubotan and mace on your key chain and learn MMA.
 
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