Positioning and what it means to you - Pt. 1:

Yeah, I feel a lot of that. I think the difference is probably that I'm generally doing exclusively standup, with weak clinching (e.g. knockdown or k1 ish), so the clinch is less of a threat for me. I also have some Judo experience, so do better there. I can usually spin people shorter than me, drop out and then keep working. I can also generally win at potshotting given someone who's relatively close to my height.

My issue is thinking I'm a great enough kicker to stop people who are enough taller than me that they can throw in combinations at a distance where I can only kick. I'll kick, tag them, but if it doesn't sit them down them I get lit up. I'm 5'7" like 150ish, so meeting guys who are taller ENOUGH and the same weight is unusual, but not unheard of. I really do think at that point I've gotta close it in enough that I can reach em with my hands, or be far enough that they can't reach me with theirs, because going 2 weapons against 4 is dumb as shit.

One of my main sparring partners is built just like you with the same background pretty much. I used to eat him up despite him being better at every individual thing than me because I have like 10" of reach and 100lbs on him. On the upside, I know better than anyone what a short dude has to do to beat me.

A couple of months ago he finally transitions to where: he can open with a kick fast enough to beat mine, angle step when throwing a hand combo, and keep his posture and escape when I try to clinch. All that together means I can only ever kick at him when I jab him first and have no choice but to stick mostly to hands with a wide low stance to keep him off me with hooks and uppercuts - all plan B shit for me.

For someone with your skill set against a bigger, stronger, taller person, I really believe the best path is snap kicks leading into boxing combos with simultaneous foot work and a healthy does of grip breaking and deadlift fostered posture.
 
I do jump rope like a little girl. ;)

People used to actually say that at a TKD place I trained. There were these 2 guys, one was a collegiate football player and the other an amateur hockey player, both in their 20s build like brick shit houses, and they loved TKD tournaments for some reason. This little girl was sparring near us. She was probably like 13 and had a multidegree black belt. She bounces around like a butterfly, spins her hips all the way Thai style for a round house and then jump retreat spins backward into a hook kick. The dude points at her and says, "the goal here is to be as big as we all are but move around about like her."

In any case, I hate sparring boxers :icon_evil a 130 pound girl can give me a headache with a hook though a 12 ounce glove.

Out of curiosity, how do you deal with people who punch when you try to kick? I don't mean when you time their punch and simultaneously kick, I mean when they time your kick and step in to counter it? See Bisping vs Le for a recent, relatively high profile MMA example.
 
One of my main sparring partners is built just like you with the same background pretty much. I used to eat him up despite him being better at every individual thing than me because I have like 10" of reach and 100lbs on him. On the upside, I know better than anyone what a short dude has to do to beat me.

A couple of months ago he finally transitions to where: he can open with a kick fast enough to beat mine, angle step when throwing a hand combo, and keep his posture and escape when I try to clinch. All that together means I can only ever kick at him when I jab him first and have no choice but to stick mostly to hands with a wide low stance to keep him off me with hooks and uppercuts - all plan B shit for me.

For someone with your skill set against a bigger, stronger, taller person, I really believe the best path is snap kicks leading into boxing combos with simultaneous foot work and a healthy does of grip breaking and deadlift fostered posture.

Hmm. Maybe I'll put some emphasis on my kick > hand transitions, which are pretty shit. Thanks for the thoughts.
 
Out of curiosity, how do you deal with people who punch when you try to kick? I don't mean when you time their punch and simultaneously kick, I mean when they time your kick and step in to counter it? See Bisping vs Le for a recent, relatively high profile MMA example.

I don't. I only throw when the person is on their heels, circling, or throwing their own punch. If someone is ready for a kick, I just don't kick. The only exception is if for some reason I think their mind wanders and I can tell, like if they exhale sharply after a combo or grip break, then I'll throw.

The basis for my kicking is always threatening to lunge forward into a Muay Thai clinch, so that they think that if they step into my range, I'll step forward as well. Secondly, they think that if they step back, I'll kick. If they step back to draw the kick, I'll step forward and cut off more space behind me so I can kick and spaz retreat later.

Most people circle but don't know why they are circling, so I just kick when both their feet are planted during their walk and they can't come forward. Most people will step to my left when I jab, which gives me the switch kick, and I can't be hit back turning a TKD switch kick unless they are great at TKD themselves.

In short, if someone CAN hit me with a punch during my kick, that is just like, such a fundamental defeat of my whole idea on fighting that I'll try to do an Osoto Gari or something. I seriously just have to totally pull back, focus on wearing on them with a jab, and try to find some other way I can be dominant.

Edit - I've never met anyone who could do that, ROUTINELY, who wasn't simply wholly superior to me physically and spiritually (fighting-wise).
 
I don't. I only throw when the person is on their heels, circling, or throwing their own punch. If someone is ready for a kick, I just don't kick. The only exception is if for some reason I think their mind wanders and I can tell, like if they exhale sharply after a combo or grip break, then I'll throw.

The basis for my kicking is always threatening to lunge forward into a Muay Thai clinch, so that they think that if they step into my range, I'll step forward as well. Secondly, they think that if they step back, I'll kick. If they step back to draw the kick, I'll step forward and cut off more space behind me so I can kick and spaz retreat later.

Most people circle but don't know why they are circling, so I just kick when both their feet are planted during their walk and they can't come forward. Most people will step to my left when I jab, which gives me the switch kick, and I can't be hit back turning a TKD switch kick unless they are great at TKD themselves.

In short, if someone CAN hit me with a punch during my kick, that is just like, such a fundamental defeat of my whole idea on fighting that I'll try to do an Osoto Gari or something. I seriously just have to totally pull back, focus on wearing on them with a jab, and try to find some other way I can be dominant.

Edit - I've never met anyone who could do that, ROUTINELY, who wasn't simply wholly superior to me physical and spiritual (fighting-wise).

Yea that's what I thought. Guys who rely on kicking like you have to know when they're safe to do it, otherwise their opponents will time their kicks on accident. You've got the classic kick them if they're far away, clinch them if they're close, punch to make them think you can approach but with some interesting twists.
 
I believe it's the opposite, they think you're closer than you are.

I stand like this and no one ever hits me with the first jab they throw because they always throw it from too far away. I usually don't even have to move.

Interesting ...

Any idea why is that happening ? I mean, I can't find a logical explanation ... How angling to the side makes you to look closer ?
 
It's not as much "to the side" as it is to the side and slightly back. When the upper-body is tilted, it can be difficult to tell that a guy's head is over or closer to his rear foot, especially if his chin is down and it looks like he's pushing his forehead at you.
 
Interesting ...

Any idea why is that happening ? I mean, I can't find a logical explanation ... How angling to the side makes you to look closer ?

It doesn't make you look closer than you would be if you had your weight forward. But it makes you look like you haven't moved as far as you did, in large part because you're moving back and to the side. On top of that, when your hip is folded your upper body appears to be leaning forward slightly. And it kind of is, but since the action originates at the hip your head isn't actually moving forward, but the angle of your upper body makes it look like it is.

It's easiest to explain in front of someone. They'll try to reach you, miss and have to lean in then be really confused when you can easily touch them.
 
It's not as much "to the side" as it is to the side and slightly back. When the upper-body is tilted, it can be difficult to tell that a guy's head is over or closer to his rear foot, especially if his chin is down and it looks like he's pushing his forehead at you.

This is one of the most fascinating aspects of fighting, and why I think "range finders" are so absolutely important. SummerStriker, how confident would you be of your sense of range if you were fighting Jimmy McLarnin, or someone with a stance like his?

Corbis-U656087AINP.jpg


You say that you like to throw your jab (or whatever initial shot) and then continue based on the reaction of your opponent. But what if your opponent knows that he seems closer to you than he is, and simply lets your jab fall short? I'm certainly no master of this, but there are times during sparring when I do feel like I can just stand still and let my partner throw, because he thinks I'm leaning forward when I'm really just crouching somewhat over my right hip.
 
And here's a fantastic demonstration of how the subtleties of positioning can completely distort your perception of the distance between yourself and your opponent.

 
This is one of the most fascinating aspects of fighting, and why I think "range finders" are so absolutely important. SummerStriker, how confident would you be of your sense of range if you were fighting Jimmy McLarnin, or someone with a stance like his?

Corbis-U656087AINP.jpg


You say that you like to throw your jab (or whatever initial shot) and then continue based on the reaction of your opponent. But what if your opponent knows that he seems closer to you than he is, and simply lets your jab fall short? I'm certainly no master of this, but there are times during sparring when I do feel like I can just stand still and let my partner throw, because he thinks I'm leaning forward when I'm really just crouching somewhat over my right hip.

The concept sounds very interesting, but to say the truth, I wasn't able to really understand "a guy" or Sinister's explanation to why in that stance an opponent looks closer, than he really is.

I have never sparred with somebody who has a stance like that, so have no practical experience on how it feels like.
 
I don't see what's so hard to grasp. McLarnin seems to be leaning slightly forward, but he's not. So when you initially reach out a hand to touch him, you won't.
 
This is one of the most fascinating aspects of fighting, and why I think "range finders" are so absolutely important. SummerStriker, how confident would you be of your sense of range if you were fighting Jimmy McLarnin, or someone with a stance like his?

Corbis-U656087AINP.jpg


You say that you like to throw your jab (or whatever initial shot) and then continue based on the reaction of your opponent. But what if your opponent knows that he seems closer to you than he is, and simply lets your jab fall short? I'm certainly no master of this, but there are times during sparring when I do feel like I can just stand still and let my partner throw, because he thinks I'm leaning forward when I'm really just crouching somewhat over my right hip.

I'm not very good at boxing compared to amateur fighters who are competing. When it comes to boxing, there are a lot more people who can make me look silly.

Most of my sparring experience is with mma. I'm tall and usually have the most confidence with long range kicking. Most kicks hit low on the body, so it is a good trick to make your low body appear somewhere it isn't, and for me, the burden of closing the gap is almost always on the other person.

On the rare occasion when I'm doing mma sparring with someone who has a better long range kick than me, who did TKD and can avoid my kick with a switch step or snap back, or who can kick me and escape without being countered, I do what everyone else does.

I try to endure their attack, and close off some of the room. Once they are near the wall, I'll try to force them to box or wrestle.

In short, I think what you are talking about doing is harder in mma than boxing because the weaker technician can force you to work at a different range. It does no good to play with someone's sense of distance because after like 5 seconds of being on the losing end of boxing, they are going to try to kick or clinch. You would need a preponderance of skill to play such a game across multiple ranges.

I'm not saying that is impossible. You would just need to be a real master to pull it off.

If you take the game of superior boxing and distance control into mma, I think you would need to put some punch lines on it. Be ready for them to back up and beat them to the kick, or ready to clinch and get a lick in before forcing neutral grips.

Edit: I can't see the still image you posted but I'm sure I know what it looks like.

Specifically, if I were boxing and I was missing because I couldn't get the range, "I" would wait for them to hit me and try to counter, and to the body if I could.

If it were mma, and if felt out classed at optimal punching distance against someone with the same reach, I'd retreat to kick and force them to close the gap. If that failed, I'd stalk them to the wall and try to wrestle. If I couldn't do that, I'd lose because I'm shit at pulling guard.
 
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I don't see what's so hard to grasp. McLarnin seems to be leaning slightly forward, but he's not. So when you initially reach out a hand to touch him, you won't.

In this picture it looks like McLarnin is REALLY leaning forward.

So you are saying that actually he doesn't and this is exactly the demonstration of this visual effect ?
 
For some reason, I can see the image now.

It is a good 3d puzzle. My initial gut reaction is that, like I was saying earlier in the thread, it is harder to hit that guy with a good body or head kick because their lead arm punches and lead teep can shield them more.

I think it would be slower to throw a rear leg kick in that stance, so his opponent could take liberties standing in that range.

I think that most people would have a hard time adapting to an opponent using this stance because it would change the game a lot.
 
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In this picture it looks like McLarnin is REALLY leaning forward.

So you are saying that actually he doesn't and this is exactly the demonstration of this visual effect ?

If he were leaning straight forward there would be a shadow on his left ribs. Look at how narrow the angle of his left ear to left shoulder is, but he is looking ahead, while his head is to the right of his body.
 
more of a side-on shot of mclarnin

McLarnin.Jimmy.2.jpg


is that the same stance? the rear legs looks different and the lead hand a little lower, but the leaning over the right hip looks the same. fascinating stuff!
 
I don't see what's so hard to grasp. McLarnin seems to be leaning slightly forward, but he's not. So when you initially reach out a hand to touch him, you won't.

Tbf not a lot of fighters today who fight that way even 40 years ago there weren't many left who fought that way.
Some fighters use stuff like this at some spots but the only active fighter I can think of who really fights for a whole fighter similar to this is Thabiso Mchunu
 
more of a side-on shot of mclarnin

McLarnin.Jimmy.2.jpg


is that the same stance? the rear legs looks different and the lead hand a little lower, but the leaning over the right hip looks the same. fascinating stuff!

Yeah, it's more or less the same. The rear leg is more internally rotated there, but there's not much difference. The optical illusion stems from the fact that he's bending his body at the hip, so his head appears to be forward, when actually his hips is slightly folded back. That, combined with the fact that his head is not only back but to the side, makes it very difficult to gauge the distance of his head with eyes alone. Hence, the need for a jab.
 
That, combined with the fact that his head is not only back but to the side, makes it very difficult to gauge the distance of his head with eyes alone. Hence, the need for a jab.

I guess, I understand the idea. Still interesting, why this optical illusion happens based on this specific stance. But I think, it can be just taken as a fact without being too theoretical about it.
 
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