A past prime Aldo stepped in the cage against a younger, bigger, and hungry warrior in Holloway... | Page 4

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Toner, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. MescalineDreams Black Belt

    MescalineDreams
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    Actually they don't. The word Is that VADA uses WADA standards( supposedly)

    that's different from using an actual wada accredited lab.

    There are only a few officially wada accreddited labs. There Is no evidence that VADA was actually using one of them, only that they claim to use the same standards of testing.

    The whole ordeal / testing debacle was about them doing enhanced testing under a wada accredited lab In salt lake city. Which never ended up happening for whatever reason.

    That said, If they truly did use the exact same testing..you'd think there would be no Issue with accepting the terms of the enhanced testing by the salt lake city lab. It didn't happen though

    If VADA didn't have a sketchy history and associations with sketchy Individuals, I'd probably just believe their words without question..but yeah
     
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  2. SuperNerd Season Mode.

    SuperNerd
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    Because those are the real motivating factors in real life and prize fighting. I'm not going to pretend it's about something else cuz I really want it too.

    Should I pretend the ufc's goal is to find the best fighter?
     
    #62
  3. iwhoopedbatman Fox Hunter Extraordinaire

    iwhoopedbatman
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    Hendricks' just obfuscated the whole time. He didn't demand USADA or any other lab. He tried to say they should use WADA (repeatedly, so it wasn't him misspeaking, he was just bullshitting) when WADA doesn't even do testing. VADA follows WADA standards. Hendricks tried his damndest to confuse the issue at every turn and this board is proof that it worked.
     
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  4. MescalineDreams Black Belt

    MescalineDreams
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    Supposedly they do, I haven't seen any evidence of such though. Saying they follow WADA standards and usiing one of the few oficially wada accredited labs are two different things. GSP has an excellent PR team, there was some shit stirring on both sides from where I'm sitting, generally the truth lies somewhere In the middle.

    He did initially want USADA or WADA. They were set to do testing under the WADA accredited lab In salt lake city orchestrated by the NSAC but It never happened. Seemed like the Issue was more on GSP's camp's side as opposed to Hendricks In that sense.

    Vada has a sketchy history, so I don't think It's wise to just blindly accept things they say personally
     
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  5. iwhoopedbatman Fox Hunter Extraordinaire

    iwhoopedbatman
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    VADA is/was a WADA accredited lab. WADA did not do testing at that time. Hendricks was fully full of shit. How full of shit GSP was is up to interpretation, but Hendricks had no legs to stand on in that argument. Every time he opened his mouth, bullshit spewed. He never said USADA. He only said WADA.
     
    #65
  6. MescalineDreams Black Belt

    MescalineDreams
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    No they are / were not. They have claimed to test using the standards of WADA. They have never been an official WADA accredited lab. There have only been a small few In North america for quite some time now.
     
    #66
  7. MescalineDreams Black Belt

    MescalineDreams
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    Yes he did say USADA. I watched all the videos / Interviews from that time and remember quite clearly. Doesn't mean It means anything but he did throw the word out there. What exactly was Hendricks full of shit about though? Wasn't he the person who was suggesting they do WADA or USADA in the first place? They would've never even Initiated the process to do testing under the salt lake city lab If not for him.. It never happened but It seems his camp was the side that most wanted It. At the time, GSP's camp was Insistent on using VADA.
     
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  8. iwhoopedbatman Fox Hunter Extraordinaire

    iwhoopedbatman
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    They work with WADA accredited labs. The only thing they did differently than USADA now does is the collection schedule.
     
    #68
  9. MescalineDreams Black Belt

    MescalineDreams
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    would like to see some actual proof for this.

    edit: looked It up again, yeah they do. So, I was wrong on that.

    Still, VADA In my mind Is not as credible of a testing organization as some believe and they should be questioned. Not just blindly accepted. The brains behind the creation of VADA Is a guy who went to jail over some pretty massive PED scandals and generally has a very sketchy history.
     
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  10. iwhoopedbatman Fox Hunter Extraordinaire

    iwhoopedbatman
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    Please find me a clip/quote of him saying USADA. He said WADA repeatedly. I never once heard USADA come out of his mouth. And WADA wasn't doing testing, which is who he kept insisting they use instead of VADA. Hendricks refused VADA and enhanced testing through the NSAC, so claiming his side wanted it more seems a little far fetched.
     
    #70
  11. MescalineDreams Black Belt

    MescalineDreams
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    Someone elses post on the Issue who I think has a bit more Insight than we do.




    My background is cycling, and probably as much anti doping in cycling or the fight against it, I guess im best summed up as either a snark, troll, or commentator depending on your view, and MMA is another of my great loves. And its sad to see
    much of what we saw in cycling over the last 15-20 years being replicated in other sports, but notably in MMA.

    Not so much the doping, that is a problem in all sports, but the fact that the narrative is made by doctors, experts, athletes, managers who prey on the niavety of the fans who take them at their word that everything is just dandy.

    VADA in my mind is nothing more than a PR exercise, its not a credible anti doping organisation, and it makes far too many claims that it simply cannot back up. Where to start...

    For an anti doping agency or organisation to be succesful it needs a number of things

    1) Total independance from the athletes
    2) Total transparency about its methods and results
    3) Run by people who are totally above question

    The name, VADA - a deliberate attempt in my mind to lend itself credibilty, and to prey on the niavety of fans by bringing confusion over the similarity of its name to WADA. Ive seen various claims from VADA raising from they are
    "Partners of WADA" which is utter nonsense (but ive seen this nonsense spread across social media and forums in much the same way as cycling employed interns to spread disinformation around), they are not partners of WADA in any sense.
    ANy claims are utter BS, they just have a similar sounding name.

    Yes, so they follow the WADA banned list, but thats a publicly available list that anyone can choose to download and follow, that does not make them "Partners".. they use WADA approved labs, but so do US anti doping, so do the Canadian centre for ethics in sport, and so can I, should i wish to take a sample of my blood, along with the requisite pile of cash to any WADA accredited lab.

    Ive even seen claims on these forums that VADA are "WADA Accredited", this is complete and utter BS. Wada dont hand out accreditations to agencies. VADA use WADA accredited labs, that is all.

    The people involved, lets start with Ramsus Daamsgard. In some circles he is lauded for creating the best in house testing programs. He was behind the (cycling) team testing programs at CSC (later Saxo Tinkoff) and Astana (Later Radioshack), and will happily tell all and sundry that he created the best anti doping program in sport. But what isnt so widely reported is he started these testing programs under contract to Bispebjerg Hospital. The Hospital later severed their links with him, because of "concerns about how he was running the program", notably accepting gifts such a $10k bike from team CSC, originally the agreement was
    the teams would pay the hospital, the hospital would pay Daamsgaard a salary, with nothing going direct from the team to Ramsus, and they severed links when he broke this agreement. This was made worse when at Astana he allowed Lance Armstrong to not be part of his internal program but instead undergo seperate testing under Dr Don Catlin. Daamsgard then formed his own private company "Radar" a commercial enterprise owned 100% by him. How can testing be credible, independant and reliable when the very people you are testing are those who are paying you to tell everyone you tested them and everything is ok?

    Some background on Daamsgard http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/damsgaard-faces-criticism-over-anti-doping-programme

    Don Catlin - who has been the brains behind many anti doping developments, leading the way in testing in sport, but has also many times been far too close to the athletes. It was Catlin who in the late nineties tested samples from the prior ten years and discover many of Lance Armstrongs samples showed high levels of testosterone and almost certainly indicated doping, yet ten years later
    he was employed as Armstrongs personal anti doping expert leading Greg Lemond to comment "was signing on only as an enabler who would help Armstrong present a facade of being clean."

    Catlin has been the pioneer behind many tests for doping products, but he is also the perfect person to advise people just how to get past those tests, something that has been alleged of him many many times.

    Victor Conte: This guy really needs no introduction. Depending on who you listen to he was either the brains behind the founding of VADA or he has absolutely nothing to do with it. The simple fact is, the guy is toxic. Fox guarding the henhouse.

    Independance: This is a massive issue. For any anti doping procedure to be taken seriously it HAS to be fully independant and operate above
    any suspicion. And this is where VADA fails. It is being paid for by the very people who it is conducting the tests on. Its simple economics that those with something to hide will be prepared to pay more than those with nothing to hide, and if i am conducting testing on an athlete, in return for cash, it is in my interests for me to declare that athlete clean, and continue to reap income from said athlete. The only way for any organisation to avoid this is to either operate entirely independantly, or to be run by people who are 100% beyond all suspicioun, something we cannot say of Conte, Daamsgard and co.

    Transparency and Process: The final issue with VADA is WHAT THE HELL DO THEY ACTUALLY DO? They make all these claims about their testing process, they follow the wada code, they handle samples in a certain way, they process them at certain labs, but what do they actually do.

    If you check their website you will see that recently multiple athletes have "succesfully completed VADA".. what the hell does that mean, if you look at the bios
    for the athletes it just says "congratulations on passing VADA"

    VADA congratulates Ben Askren for successfully completing VADA
    Congratulations to Edwin Rodriguez for completing one year of VADA testing.
    VADA congratulates Sheila Graff for undergoing VADA

    Great, they have "undergone VADA", they have "Completed VADA", but what does this mean? How many times were they tested? What were they tested for? Its a total mystery

    To my mind, VADA is nothing more than a PR agency, that prays on peoples lack of understanding and niavety about anti doping, paid for by the very athletes it is testing.

    + deliberately misleading name
    + false claims of being in partnership with WADA
    + Total lack of transparency information about what "completing VADA" actually means
    + total lack of independance
    + Staff and experts that dont have an altogether reliable record

    Yes, doping in MMA is an issue, a massive issue, but its an issue that can be addressed by the various organisations working with independant bodies, state athletic commissions (athough there are some doubts over their neutrality),
    USADA in the US, Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport in Canada, UKAD in the UK, AFLD in France etc, not by some fly by night organisation like VADA. It worries me that people buy into the BS coming from VADA.

    One other thing that bothers me intensely is some fans attitude to doping in MMA, they seemingly dont care, or dont see a problem with it.

    In athletics, if an athlete dopes, he simply runs faster, against other opponents, he may take medals, or prize money from them, but that is all he takes.

    In MMA your job as an athlete is to punch people, elbow people, kick people, inflict injury on your opponent. A doping athlete has the power, or stamina to inflict larger injuries, cause more damage, to seriously injure a "clean" opponent. That should not be acceptable to anyone.
     
    #71
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  12. MescalineDreams Black Belt

    MescalineDreams
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    I may have been thinking of Condit, as he did want USADA. https://www.mmamania.com/2013/9/7/4...lains-why-he-turned-down-vada-testing-for-ufc

    Hendricks side never refused the enhanced testing through the NSAC ( under the salt lake city lab) all Indications were that his team were ready to go, then this happened.

    https://www.sbnation.com/2013/9/11/4719572/georges-st-pierre-johny-hendricks-drug-testing-gsp-ufc


    Why would he refuse the very testing that he requested In the first place.? Only thing he didn't want to do was VADA and rightfully so. Vada Is not a credible organization.
     
    #72
  13. JackSchtotll Orange Belt

    JackSchtotll
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    I'm not the one coming across as a "hater" around here. Read the other posts: most disagree with your virulent hate speech and debunk your weak "points".

    But you're easy to crack: you want GSP to be p4p goat all time. He ain't. This hurts you.

    easy.
     
    #73
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  14. MescalineDreams Black Belt

    MescalineDreams
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    I would say a fair case can be made for GSP as being one of the bestt fighters ever. It doesn't change the fact that there are some incongruencies regarding his career though. Great fighter, but the writing Is on the wall.
     
    #74
  15. JackSchtotll Orange Belt

    JackSchtotll
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    He's a top 10 at best when the entire sport is taken into account.
     
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  16. iwhoopedbatman Fox Hunter Extraordinaire

    iwhoopedbatman
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    Except that his strategy was to consistently confuse the issue. And he wasn't the first to ask for enhanced testing. He agreed to VADA testing and then backed out of that and kept saying 'WADA testing'. That's when the idea of using the enhanced NSAC testing came into play. It wasn't something his camp was lobbying for, until they decided they didn't like VADA (which is understandable, but was very poorly articulated publicly by Hendricks who just tried to claim VADA didn't do WADA testing). The whole incident was a giant clusterfuck and both camps played too many games, but Hendricks spewed nonsense in every interview he did on the subject. Maybe he was just ignorant of what he was talking about and it was his camp that understood the situation, but it didn't come across that way.
     
    #76
  17. iwhoopedbatman Fox Hunter Extraordinaire

    iwhoopedbatman
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    He's got the most wins, title fight wins, top 10 ranked wins, top 5 ranked wins, and P4P ranked wins in the history of the UFC. Not to mention titles in 2 weight classes. He's got a pretty strong argument.
     
    #77
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  18. JackSchtotll Orange Belt

    JackSchtotll
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    ....for the #8 best fighter of all times!

    It's a great accomplishment.
     
    #78
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  19. TUFNewb Brown Belt

    TUFNewb
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    GSP is GOAT. All the other candidates have glaring flaws.

    - Fedor ducked the UFC, and for good reason. He was used to fighting cans every other fight and when he started fighting in the US he got wasted by middleweights and lower level fighters like Matt fucking Mitrione lol.

    - Aldo fought midget wrestle boxers and got thrashed 3 times in his prime by when he finally faced competent strikers. Downfall just happens to coincide with USADA. Just a coincidence I'm sure.

    - Silva was on steroids his whole UFC career. He would still be getting crushed by journeymen welterweights in Japan if it weren't for his dick pills. He was on steroids and still lost to fucking Bisping lol.

    - Jones is also a proven steroid abuser. Too bad, he had promise to be the one true GOAT.

    GSP has passed 100% of his drug tests, came back in USADA after a decade of retirement to win a belt above his natural weight class, and has avenged every loss he had. He is the GOAT you haters. Please find a way to deal with it.
     
    #79
  20. daltonames Brown Belt

    daltonames
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    in real life, how much money promoters and guys like Conor make has zero effect on you. So why would you care? I'm a fight fan. I want to see Conor defend his belt and unify the title against the #1 guy and interim champ in Tony. What do i care if he makes more money against Nate? He can make that excuse for himself, why would i make it for him? You're just regurgitating a narrative they're feeding you so they can make money. sad.
    Screen Shot 2017-12-06 at 11.30.37 PM.png
     
    #80

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