Law Affirmative Action Abolished: U.S Supreme Court Outlaws Racial Discrimination In College Admissions.

[Devout Pessimist]

I think we are comparing Asians to whites. The Asians that do well seem to be recent immigrants and focus incredibly hard on testing and on extra curricular activities that look good on college applications. They recognize that in America there is opportunity for those who work hard.

White people aren't exactly that far behind. The largest GDP comes from the European union followed by the U.S. Along with production the U.S. practically creates all the major entertainment from music to movies, a large amount of the video game market (although obviously Japan plays a large role in that as well).

I would argue that white culture in many areas is complete shit. We no longer teach logic in schools. We teach history dates but not any sort of values from the teachings. I think history without any sort of morale lesson is largely useless. We are scared of drugs. Which nearly all the people who create new products or entertainment take. Its absurd to banish them. I think white culture is under attack by femenists and we are trying to figure out how to move forward. Whites have rightfully gotten a lot of shit, but being the first into the industrial revolution and the first to experience incredible wealth, it has also made many of our intellectuals and business leaders a lot more open minded and ethical. We have Bill Gates getting billionaires to give up all their to charity. We have an army of liberals trying to spread wealth around and bring back local stores and farms. Whites are doing a lot of good in the world. White intellectuals will do a lot of good in the next century.

I think black culture is under and has been under attack by whites. People really downplay the incredible effect the drug war has had. Or the effect of the FBI destroying any black mass movement of focusing on helping each other and coming together etc. It all plays a major role.

"I think black culture is under and has been under attack by whites. People really downplay the incredible effect the drug war has had. Or the effect of the FBI destroying any black mass movement of focusing on helping each other and coming together etc. It all plays a major role."

I have two questions:

1. What aspects of black culture specifically are under attack by whites?

2. What are these movements focused on blacks helping each other that the FBI has stopped? As far as I can tell the main issue with blacks has been racist liberals encouraging a victim mentality and lowering educational standards in black schools because they do not believe blacks can accomplish anything without their help.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

 

[Thunderflash500]

"I think black culture is under and has been under attack by whites. People really downplay the incredible effect the drug war has had. Or the effect of the FBI destroying any black mass movement of focusing on helping each other and coming together etc. It all plays a major role."

I have two questions:

1. What aspects of black culture specifically are under attack by whites?

2. What are these movements focused on blacks helping each other that the FBI has stopped? As far as I can tell the main issue with blacks has been racist liberals encouraging a victim mentality and lowering educational standards in black schools because they do not believe blacks can accomplish anything without their help.

1. The Drug war is clearly an attack on blacks. We see the effect it has and it is devastating. I mean the war literally started because it was said that if blacks used pot they would become crazy animals and rape white women. Then you have the crack laws that carried punishments 10x as harsh as coke laws. Because blacks used crack. The prisons are filled with non violent criminals. It's neo slavery. We take blacks who haven't hurt anyone, put them in a private prison (big business that profits off of taking peoples freedoms away), and forget about them. If they have a family, now that kid is raised without a dad. When the dad gets out 10 years later he has no job skills and nobody wants to hire a criminal. The effects go far past a prison sentance, it reverberates on. Now is this a white conspiracy? I'm sure there are many whites in the process who are overtly racist who just say well fuck em their blacks, their animals anyway. But I'm sure most of it is just momentum and greed. It's ignorant congressmen, congressmen who are doing favors for police unions, prison guard unions, private prison industry in order for political contributions ect.

2.COINTELPRO (an acronym for COunter INTELligence PROgram) was a series of covert, and at times illegal, projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveilling, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting domestic political organizations.

3. I agree that their is an aspect of liberalism that treats all non straight white males as children. And that is a poisonous way to think. But overall liberals do more good by exposing the lies of conservatives and by explaining to people what sociology is and the effect of culture and how a lot of what we think is common sense is often just an idea someone came up with in the recent past and isn't an everlasting truth at all.

 

[panamaican]

Im actually basing myself in PISA tests, i dont really know much about asian education.

That being said a survey that asks people how important they think things are isnt at all relevant, thats like if you went to Mexico and made a survey about eating healthy and exercising, you would get a lot of people thinking its pretty important, yet the population is by large obese and sedentary.

PISA tests are mostly worthless for cross-country comparisons unless you can ensure that similar percentages of the population are being tested. The U.S. tests everyone because school is mandatory for everyone. Not every other nation puts their entire school age population up for evaluation.

And my original positions aren't based just on survey polls. My original immigrant point was based on actual levels of educational attainment by various immigrant groups juxtaposed with 2 factors: 1) what percentage of the ethnic group that the immigrant group is filed under was native born vs. foreign born and 2) the difference in educational attainment between the native born and the foreign born within that ethnic classification. These aren't polled numbers, these are generally hard and fast data culled from graduation rates and Census Bureau population demographic data. Once you go that deep, its clear that it's immigrant vs. native that is the difference and not Asian immigrant specific. The Asian advantage comes from being comprised of significantly more immigrants than the other groups.

My other point, which arose from what someone said to me, is that there is nothing that supports the claim that Asian countries value education more than any other nation. I would agree with it if it was supported by something. But up to this point, it's not supported by anything. People who say it generally aren't aware of how any of the countries they are championing or devaluing actually manage their education responsibilities. So, you get the standard American fallacy where they ignore how difficult it is for average people from other countries to enter America.

It's not called a "brain drain" by accident. It's a brain drain because we heavily recruit the best from other nations, not the average. So any conclusions based on observing that subset of the immigrant population is generally worthless for drawing conclusions, positive or negative, beyond the very small intellectual elite who can actually make it here.

 

[Amerikuracana]

To combat crumbling morals and ghetto culture thrust upon their children by the American media, many white families have become the modern version of what is now considered "conservative." Well that can make you a more smiley, possibly more moral and clean family, but the modern American 'conservatism' comes with a dose of stupidity and average science denial. Science denial is not really part of religion, it really doesn't have to be, but it is part of the American plutocracy where the powers that be have decided you are either in the fruitcake ghetto camp, or the fake smiley and pretty ignorant camp.. Neither side is a major threat, and both are easy to control. Seriously, be an Independent and weigh each issue on its merits. My conservative friends will not acknowledge the economy has got better under Obama. My hardcore liberal friends think any traditionally conservative social value is probably worthless. They are all delusional, and easy to manipulate. Wake up. Teach your kids ghetto media culture is garbage, and teach them about science from the time they are young. Also teach them (imho) the value and goodness religion teaches.


Asians (as a tendency) don't have a 'politically conservative God,' or a desire to throw away all tradition for the act of twerking and entertaining their kids with sex and ghetto culture, they have old fashioned 'honor' as their God, and tradition as their culture. They aren't completely bowing down to the American media pop-culture dictator, which can literally only make people stupid, weak, and subjugated. They also don't take pride in their ability to loudly undermine each other, gossip angrily, or in their ability to not take work seriously but still keep a job because they are the all powerful respected gossiping office cancer. They probably have trouble understanding what the hell even white people are doing at work a good percentage of the time. They don't take pride in offending each other or look at that as a 'professional skill,' other Americans do, It baffles me. I think the little bit of Asian DNA I have from my Native American grandfather makes me see things from their perspective, or something. Their business culture, although over the top in places like Japan, makes more sense to me. Just ease up on the hours Japanese friends, there is honor in having a life of your own outside of work, as well.

But yeah, it's easy to see why Oriental Asians with honor based cultures will fare well in Western culture.

 

[Amerikuracana]

Also, as white culture has started to become a matriarch with women undermining men, the kids are suffering majorly. It's just a b*tchy culture, with parents angry, disrespectful, on their phones like teenagers (guilty here at times for sure), and just not a lot sincere caring for children. Caring for children requires a sincere, unselfish soul. White Americans have lost that over a couple generations. Nice people are looked at as weak, and weird attitudes reign. You don't stay on the surface with your kids, and you don't teach them bad manners by overcompensating for a lack of traditional decency with "having their back" against teachers etc.. Without respect for the traditional family system, and quite frankly women respecting men, parenting in the white community has taken a hit in some instances.

 

[Lord Coke]

How do you objectively test creativeness potential in teenage kids without having their parents tampering with them?

I'm not sure what your issue here is. Its almost like you are arguing that studying is a bad thing because is skews ones ability to gauge natural ability. I am truly at a loss here. Either you want a merit based system you don't.

 

[nixkid]

I think we are comparing Asians to whites. The Asians that do well seem to be recent immigrants and focus incredibly hard on testing and on extra curricular activities that look good on college applications. They recognize that in America there is opportunity for those who work hard.

White people aren't exactly that far behind. The largest GDP comes from the European union followed by the U.S. Along with production the U.S. practically creates all the major entertainment from music to movies, a large amount of the video game market (although obviously Japan plays a large role in that as well).

I would argue that white culture in many areas is complete shit. We no longer teach logic in schools. We teach history dates but not any sort of values from the teachings. I think history without any sort of morale lesson is largely useless. We are scared of drugs. Which nearly all the people who create new products or entertainment take. Its absurd to banish them. I think white culture is under attack by femenists and we are trying to figure out how to move forward. Whites have rightfully gotten a lot of shit, but being the first into the industrial revolution and the first to experience incredible wealth, it has also made many of our intellectuals and business leaders a lot more open minded and ethical. We have Bill Gates getting billionaires to give up all their to charity. We have an army of liberals trying to spread wealth around and bring back local stores and farms. Whites are doing a lot of good in the world. White intellectuals will do a lot of good in the next century.

I think black culture is under and has been under attack by whites. People really downplay the incredible effect the drug war has had. Or the effect of the FBI destroying any black mass movement of focusing on helping each other and coming together etc. It all plays a major role.

You're talking about a small percentage of white elites. Bringing up Bill Gates and elite white billionaires is like someone bringing up Oprah in an discussion about black poverty. Same thing with the entertainment and music. Blacks create a highly disproportionate amount of culture in America (much of the culture that America is exporting around the world is created by blacks) but the vast majority (black or white) see no economic gains from cultural creations. Only a small, elite few.

But I'm not talking about those elites (anymore than someone talking about tpyical black economic issues is talking about Michael Jordan). I'm talking specifically about poor whites with little to no education and very bad job prospects (that are worsening by the year). The ones that are killing themselves at a rate big enough to measurably impact the death rate of all middle aged whites. Only 30% of whites have a college degree so we're talking about tens of millions of people. Their culture is very seldom under attack and they are very rarely blamed for their plight. Any argument used against any other underachieving group can be equally applied to them (if they worked harder, if they studied more, if they were more serious about education, etc). Instead, most of the serious discussion seems to be centered around systemic economic shifts (well, you used to be able to take care of a family of 4 with a high school diploma and a factory job) and how they are victims of a economy in transition. Not many people will deny that these systemic issues are real. That is quite a contrast to other groups. You brought up some good points about systemic issues facing blacks...but watch how people rush in to discredit it.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

From NYC to Harvard: the war on Asian-American success
By Betsy McCaughey
December 29, 2015​

Stuyvesant High School​

The year 2015 was a dismal one for American public education — at least by the numbers.

But don’t blame the kids. Parents are missing in action.

Except most Asian-American parents, that is. They tend to oversee their children’s homework, stress the importance of earning high grades and instill the belief that hard work is the ticket to a better life.

And it pays off. Their children are soaring academically.

The outrage is that instead of embracing the example of these Asian families, school authorities and non-Asian parents want to rig the system to hold them back. It’s happening here in New York City, in suburban New Jersey and across the nation.

As a group, Americans need to take a page from the Asian parents’ playbook. American teens rank a dismal 28th in math and science knowledge, compared with teens in other countries — even poor countries. Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan are at the top.

We’ve slumped. For the first time in 25 years, US scores on the main test for elementary and middle school education fell. And SAT scores for college-bound students dropped significantly.

Could changes in these tests be to blame? That convenient excuse was torpedoed by the stellar performances of Asian-American students. Even though many come from poor or immigrant families, they outscore all other students by large margins on both tests, and their lead keeps widening.

Here in New York City, Asian-Americans make up 13 percent of students, yet they win more than half of the coveted places each year at the city’s selective public high schools, such as Bronx Science and Stuyvesant.

What’s at play here? It’s not a difference in IQ; it’s parenting. That’s confirmed by a recent study by sociologists from City University of New York and the University of Michigan, which showed that parental oversight enabled Asian-American students to far outperform the others.

No wonder many successful charter schools require parents to sign a pledge that they’ll supervise their children’s homework and encourage a strong work ethic.

That formula is under fire at the West Windsor-Plainsboro Regional School District in New Jersey. The district, which is 65 percent Asian, routinely produces seniors with perfect SAT scores, admissions to MIT and top prizes in international science competitions.

But many non-Asian parents are up in arms, complaining there’s too much pressure and their kids can’t compete. In response, this fall Superintendent David Aderhold apologized that school had become a “perpetual achievement machine.” Heaven forbid!

Aderhold canceled accelerated and enriched math courses for fourth and fifth grades, which were 90 percent Asian, and eliminated midterms and finals in high school.

Using a word that already strikes terror in the hearts of Asian parents, he said schools had to take a “holistic” approach. That’s the same euphemism Harvard uses to limit the number of Asians accepted and favor non-Asians.

Aderhold even lowered standards for playing in school music programs. Students have a “right to squeak,” he insisted. Never mind whether they practice.

Of course, neither Aderhold nor parents in charge of sports are indulging nonathletic kids with a “right to fumble” and join a mostly non-Asian varsity football team.

Meanwhile, in New York City, Mayor Bill de Blasio and the NAACP want to reduce the role the competitive exam plays in admissions for the city’s eight selective high schools in favor of a “holistic” approach. That means robbing poor, largely immigrant and first-generation kids — nearly half the students get subsidized school lunches — of the chance to study hard and compete for a world-class education.

As Dennis Saffran explains in “The Plot Against Merit,” some Asian-American eighth-graders practice for two years for the test, while their parents toil in laundromats and restaurants to pay for exam-prep classes.

What’s stopping white, Hispanic and black parents from doing the same thing?


Betsy McCaughey is a senior fellow at the London Center for Policy Research.
http://nypost.com/2015/12/29/from-nyc-to-harvard-the-war-on-asian-success/

Sorry for quoting the whole OP (but its probably good to see it pop up as a refresher, right?), and I haven't read any of the posts that followed it, so forgive me if my point is already made.

My point: Isn't Finland's school system considered "non-competetive" and therefore "holistic"? And isn't Finland always in the top 3 in K-12 education?

Now, I have no doubt that Finland has nothing to do with this change of heart in the Northeast, but it may have a serendipitous outcome.

edit: Rod1 got to it on the first page...

 

[Rod1]

I'm not sure what your issue here is. Its almost like you are arguing that studying is a bad thing because is skews ones ability to gauge natural ability. I am truly at a loss here. Either you want a merit based system you don't.

Again, do you think that a kid that has trained judo for his entire life be given preferential treatment over a guy who picked up in his early teens but its a natural talent?

Fact remains that studying for the test clearly undermines the test itself whose purpose is to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Thats why im a fan of the Finnish system, if you have a kid that has a natural aptitude for science and actually likes science, then the system should encourage him to pursue his natural aptitude and talent, not because he is moderately proficient due to their parents pushing it into them since youth. Which in turn leaves a lot of people in the curb and shattered expectations when people fail to perform.

Its similar to how eastern europeans train judo as opposed to the japanese, the eastern europeans do it scientifically to identify talent among the youth and is taught with games, the japanese simply throw judokas into the grinder and see what comes up top.

Not everyone needs to be an engineer.

And yes, studying can mask a natural aptitude deficiency when compared to non-trained individuals, for example in high school sports, you have kids whose parents put them to train since children yet get passed within a year by a kid that picks it up and has more talent.

 

[Rod1]

PISA tests are mostly worthless for cross-country comparisons unless you can ensure that similar percentages of the population are being tested. The U.S. tests everyone because school is mandatory for everyone. Not every other nation puts their entire school age population up for evaluation.

And my original positions aren't based just on survey polls. My original immigrant point was based on actual levels of educational attainment by various immigrant groups juxtaposed with 2 factors: 1) what percentage of the ethnic group that the immigrant group is filed under was native born vs. foreign born and 2) the difference in educational attainment between the native born and the foreign born within that ethnic classification. These aren't polled numbers, these are generally hard and fast data culled from graduation rates and Census Bureau population demographic data. Once you go that deep, its clear that it's immigrant vs. native that is the difference and not Asian immigrant specific. The Asian advantage comes from being comprised of significantly more immigrants than the other groups.

My other point, which arose from what someone said to me, is that there is nothing that supports the claim that Asian countries value education more than any other nation. I would agree with it if it was supported by something. But up to this point, it's not supported by anything. People who say it generally aren't aware of how any of the countries they are championing or devaluing actually manage their education responsibilities. So, you get the standard American fallacy where they ignore how difficult it is for average people from other countries to enter America.

It's not called a "brain drain" by accident. It's a brain drain because we heavily recruit the best from other nations, not the average. So any conclusions based on observing that subset of the immigrant population is generally worthless for drawing conclusions, positive or negative, beyond the very small intellectual elite who can actually make it here.

Yeah, im not pretty knowledgable on the matter, but i thought that asians working insane hours and studying all day stereotype extended to their culture.

 

[Thunderflash500]

You're talking about a small percentage of white elites. Bringing up Bill Gates and elite white billionaires is like someone bringing up Oprah in an discussion about black poverty. Same thing with the entertainment and music. Blacks create a highly disproportionate amount of culture in America (much of the culture that America is exporting around the world is created by blacks) but the vast majority (black or white) see no economic gains from cultural creations. Only a small, elite few.

But I'm not talking about those elites (anymore than someone talking about tpyical black economic issues is talking about Michael Jordan). I'm talking specifically about poor whites with little to no education and very bad job prospects (that are worsening by the year). The ones that are killing themselves at a rate big enough to measurably impact the death rate of all middle aged whites. Only 30% of whites have a college degree so we're talking about tens of millions of people. Their culture is very seldom under attack and they are very rarely blamed for their plight. Any argument used against any other underachieving group can be equally applied to them (if they worked harder, if they studied more, if they were more serious about education, etc). Instead, most of the serious discussion seems to be centered around systemic economic shifts (well, you used to be able to take care of a family of 4 with a high school diploma and a factory job) and how they are victims of a economy in transition. Not many people will deny that these systemic issues are real. That is quite a contrast to other groups. You brought up some good points about systemic issues facing blacks...but watch how people rush in to discredit it.

If you don't have a degree you're under attack. I know most generation y and after are told growing up, if you don't get an education you're going to be a loser. Which I think is an unhealthy way to describe education, but it's what's said. And still said. As far as the collapse of production, I just don't think it's devastating enough yet. But we are starting to see the affects, like suicide. I mean I agree with you, people who attack black people for being lazy are usually ignorant to how culture and society operates, or even how a human develops and thinks. As far as white people attacking other white people, I think you'll see whites talk shit about similar but lower economic classes of whites. But of course a group of like minded people will be more understanding of their own plight, then that of another group of people. Whites will of course not say whites are just inferior and lazy lol. But again yea, a lot of people act that way towards blacks or hispanics. On these boards that's an incredibly common belief. If you point out anything negative that is carried out by white elites(congressman, special interest groups), that affect blacks on a fundamental level, they will be pissed off and say it doesn't exist. And that theoretically because it's possible that very small amount of people can overcome horrible circumstances, that EVERYONE should overcome and it's solely their fault if they don't. They don't understand statistics and how things actually play out in real life.

 

[Lord Coke]

Again, do you think that a kid that has trained judo for his entire life be given preferential treatment over a guy who picked up in his early teens but its a natural talent?

Fact remains that studying for the test clearly undermines the test itself whose purpose is to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Thats why im a fan of the Finnish system, if you have a kid that has a natural aptitude for science and actually likes science, then the system should encourage him to pursue his natural aptitude and talent, not because he is moderately proficient due to their parents pushing it into them since youth. Which in turn leaves a lot of people in the curb and shattered expectations when people fail to perform.

Its similar to how eastern europeans train judo as opposed to the japanese, the eastern europeans do it scientifically to identify talent among the youth and is taught with games, the japanese simply throw judokas into the grinder and see what comes up top.

Not everyone needs to be an engineer.

And yes, studying can mask a natural aptitude deficiency when compared to non-trained individuals, for example in high school sports, you have kids whose parents put them to train since children yet get passed within a year by a kid that picks it up and has more talent.

And that is your problem Rod. You think that we should have a system in place that places people where they are most suited. This is the United States of America. You get what you earn.
Here in America a dropout can beat a genius through hard work. The system should not be designed to reward slackers over hardworkers. That's just unAmerican.

 

[Rod1]

And that is your problem Rod. You think that we should have a system in place that places people where they are most suited. This is the United States of America. You get what you earn.

Here in America a dropout can beat a genius through hard work. The system should not be designed to reward slackers over hardworkers. That's just unAmerican.

Really? so if i were to train more than Lebron James i would get his NBA spot because thats only fair?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but America only rewards results. Thats why American universities are the best around the world despite these claims of reverse discrimination.

 

[Lord Coke]

Really? so if i were to train more than Lebron James i would get his NBA spot because thats only fair?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but America only rewards results. Thats why American universities are the best around the world despite these claims of reverse discrimination.

That is much different. You are arguing to stack the deck. You want to skew placement so that achievement is not rewarded. That's like saying everyone that can land a 3 pointer 9/10 times gets a spot. Then after some students train everyday for a year to land a three pointer while the more talented kids don't train and accordingly don't score as well you change the standard.

Your standard just does not fall within how America is supposed to be. American colleges are the best and Asians are excelling at them. That's the point. Now that they are people want to change the rues because they don't like the winner.

 

[Rod1]

That is much different. You are arguing to stack the deck. You want to skew placement so that achievement is not rewarded. That's like saying everyone that can land a 3 pointer 9/10 times gets a spot. Then after some students train everyday for a year to land a three pointer while the more talented kids don't train and accordingly don't score as well you change the standard.

Your standard just does not fall within how America is supposed to be. American colleges are the best and Asians are excelling at them. That's the point. Now that they are people want to change the rues because they don't like the winner.

So a researcher job is to ace tests? Your analogy is wrong because you are equating performance on tests with performance on the job. As i mentioned before, there is a reason why good talent scouts in sports get paid in the millions, talent is far more important than training, since you can train anybody, you cant give talent to someone who doesnt has talent.

And lol at that lie that America was built on hardwork, plenty of countries work hard but not all of them succeed, America was built on talent, vision and hard work.

 

[Lord Coke]

America's success is built on having a system of government where hard work is allowed to succeed through our free markets. I've already answered your research question. If you want to test people on how they perform at work then make a test that caters to that. What do you think Phd programs already do btw?

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

 

[Rod1]

America's success is built on having a system of government where hard work is allowed to succeed through our free markets. I've already answered your research question. If you want to test people on how they perform at work then make a test that caters to that. What do you think Phd programs already do btw?

1.- Absolutely nobody will reward you for hard work, at any work field, you will be measured by results, a salesman can go 3 days working 12 hours a day and go without a single sale and another can go 1 hour and land 2 sales, for the system, the former work is meaningless.

Funny that you mention the free market since Stanford, MIT and Harvard are all private institutions which have their own.

2.- Tests are flawed by definition since people can study for them, they are good as a baseline, but not as the only measurement, you are talking as if they are letting dumb hispanics and dumb blacks in, they are not beyond a certain point in the test the more the merrier but its certainly not definitive.

3.- Unless a university runs its own high school which grooms their students for excellence, they literally have no measuring stick to understand potential of an student.

What you are asking is ridiculous, as i pointed out before Derek Jeter was .202 in his first season in the minor leagues, going by numbers alone he should had been fired isnt?

But as you said so, the US was built on free market, so let the top private universities decide who to accept in their universities.

EDIT

For public universities, the system of taking the best of all high schools is the best since it gives a chance to the hood kids.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

America's success is built on having a system of government where hard work is allowed to succeed through our free markets. I've already answered your research question. If you want to test people on how they perform at work then make a test that caters to that. What do you think Phd programs already do btw?

And get bailed out if they fail.