Alfie Evans not allowed to leave UK

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All free humans should have a right of free travel.

What the British are doing is murder.

Murdering babies is par for the course to the leftists though, so I imagine this will only stoke the flames of hatred among the right-wing. Once this poor child dies, it will only inspire and drive more unstable people towards righting this terrible wrong.

Sad choice the left has made.
 
https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/04/25/health/alfie-evans-appeal-bn/index.html?rm=1

A lot of right wingers are using this as a case study against universal healthcare. But it's possible to have UHC without instances like this, right? I don't think most advocates of UHC in the US want to model our system after Britain's.

Australia has both a public and private system. Everyone has health care and everyone pays taxes, but you can pay to get private health insurance which generally advertises itself as having shorter waiting queues.

If you want to pay for it yourself then I have no problem. If you expect the government to pay for something then that is what the courts are for.
 
All free humans should have a right of free travel.

What the British are doing is murder.

Murdering babies is par for the course to the leftists though, so I imagine this will only stoke the flames of hatred among the right-wing. Once this poor child dies, it will only inspire and drive more unstable people towards righting this terrible wrong.

Sad choice the left has made.

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Australia has both a public and private system. Everyone has health care and everyone pays taxes, but you can pay to get private health insurance which generally advertises itself as having shorter waiting queues.

If you want to pay for it yourself then I have no problem. If you expect the government to pay for something then that is what the courts are for.



Right, but they're not allowing this child to leave, to seek medical care outside of their socialist eutopia.

Armed guards have surrounded the hospital 24/7.

The child was supposed to die "within moments" of being taken off life support, and now we're 4 days (?) removed from the child being removed from life support, and he's still alive. And the government still won't allow the parents to leave and take the child to Italy.

 
I keep trying to understand something here. How do the parents plan to transport the child to another country?

I'm still unclear about if the parents are expecting the NHS to maintain the child's care until he reaches the new destination?
 
I keep trying to understand something here. How do the parents plan to transport the child to another country?

As I understand it, he's on artificial ventilation. If he is going to be moved somewhere, that would have to be maintained during the move.

I'm still unclear about if the parents are expecting the NHS to maintain the artificial ventilation until Evans reaches the new country or if they're being denied the right to bring in and pay for their own artificial ventilation?


He's already removed from the ventilation.

And if he weren't, EMS Advanced Life Support units are capable of transporting while on a respirator. And that's essentially in the back of a van.

But we're in 2018, so we have planes.

Kid would be from one hospital to the other within a couple hours:

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He's already removed from the ventilation.

And if he weren't, EMS Advanced Life Support units are capable of transporting while on a respirator.

Yeah, I had missed that. I edited my post.

Is EMS Advanced Life Support something the parents pay for or is it something the NHS provides?
 
Yeah, I had missed that. I edited my post.

Is EMS Advanced Life Support something the parents pay for or is it something the NHS provides?

This is the insanity of it.

There are PRIVATE providers who can do it. But really, WHO FUCKING CARESSSSSSSSSSSSS!

We're talking about thousands of dollars. Not millions. Lets say $20,000 at the highest limits.

Transport the fucking kid - get him the healthcare he needs, and we can worry about who pays the bills after his life is saved!!!!


Fucking insanity of leftism. Disgusts me!


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This is the insanity of it.

There are PRIVATE providers who can do it. But really, WHO FUCKING CARESSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Transport the fucking kid - get him the healthcare he needs, and we can worry about who pays the bills after his life is saved!!!!


Fucking insanity of leftism. Disgusts me!

I'm asking because I'm trying to understand the ruling. If the NHS is paying for it makes it different from if the parents are paying for it. In one situation, the ruling is about whether or not a government agency has to do something and in the other situation it's about if the parents are allowed to do something privately.
 
Father of Alfie tried to remove his child from the hospital (which is no longer providing ANY care for the child), and was STOPPED by British Police, and told they can not remove the child.


Update #2 - Itallian Hospital willing to take Alfie, landed a HELICOPTER outside of the hospital, in an attempt to take Alfie to Italy - was surrounded by British police, and forced to fly away.


THIS IS MURDER
 
Man I can't even imagine a situation where people would do this to my son. I'd think I'd go in there and try to kill everyone. I really don't see what other choice I'd have. It's sit back and watch my son die or possibly save his life. There not really giving the dad any choices here.

Actually just read that all doctors are saying they cant help this kid. So not sure what I would do here but moving him would be the last thing I'd want to do.
 
Transport the fucking kid - get him the healthcare he needs, and we can worry about who pays the bills after his life is saved!!!!


Fucking insanity of leftism. Disgusts me!

What does this have to do with leftism? In the U.S., leftism would say what you're saying "who cares who pays for it as long as it gets done."

It's the right that would say "The government should not be paying for this, let the parents pay for it on their own."

So, before you throw around leftism vs. rightism, the most basic question remains "who is expected to pay for the transportation?"

I'm also interested in whether or not the parents are allowed to take the child home, without NHS medical assistance.
 
As if this wasn't upsetting enough without accusations of murder being bandied about.....the doctors have made a difficult decision which has been upheld by an independent judiciary .
 
I found an interesting comment on social media that states:

As part of the way the NHS functions, authority for acceptable and ethical treatment is given to a patient's medical staff. This is necessary to prevent parents or other medical lay-people from refusing necessary treatment, implementing alternative remedies rather than doctor prescribed ones, or any other ways in which a legal guardian could negatively impact treatment. For instance, if a child was in the hospital with a life-threatening infection, the NHS could prevent the parents from visiting him and giving him an unknown family remedy because that would be materially likely to harm the patient.

And as sad as it is, part of acceptable and ethical medical treatment is preventing patients from experiencing undue suffering or hardship in end-of-life situations, which can include refusing transfers and/or a controlled removal of life support for patients who are essentially guaranteed to die. It is not ethical for a doctor to recommend aggressive action they believe has an insignificant chance of working just because its something different and miracles can happen; the most likely result of such recommendations would just be for those patients to suffer before dying.

Based on the article you have linked, the parents wish to transfer Alfie to a hospital in Italy, but even there they expect to simply perform palliative care; in this situation, that would essentially be putting Alfie on life support and hoping for the best. Even with Alfie's success at breathing on his own, neither the hospital in the UK or in Italy believes there is any chance Alfie will recover and can only plan to keep Alfie alive as long as possible. Given this situation, the medically ethical decision is not to keep Alfie alive but vegetative forever, nor would it be ethical for doctors to recommend a risky transfer to another country just so they could keep Alfie alive but vegetative.

and

The NHS, as medical professionals, believe that moving him holds no benefit to his chance of survival. If medical professionals think that parents' actions are significantly harming a child then they are obligated to try to stop it if it is under their control.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21729055-500-people-in-a-vegetative-state-may-feel-pain/

Edit: it is paternalistic - but only in the same way as the NSPCC is.

To me the question is this: Given all the available information will the transfer of the patient give any meaningful improvement to their wellbeing and compare this against will the transfer of the patient cause additional suffering.

If the courts have found through various expert opinions that the transfer of the child will only cause more harm then I agree with the courts decision. They should not allow a parent to cause harm to their child even if it is through misguided hope and optimism.
 
I keep trying to understand something here. How do the parents plan to transport the child to another country?

I'm still unclear about if the parents are expecting the NHS to maintain the child's care until he reaches the new destination?

He has been removed from the ventilator which they thought would kill him but it hasn't yet.

They have raised funds to cover moving him.

If they wish to have him treated someplace eles it should be their decision.

Now it is just the UK doctors and the government saying he should be killed and we are going to make sure it happens no matter what the parents try to do.

He very well stand no chance but the government should allow the parents to decide. Espicaly if the parents will fund it.

This goes beyond universal health care and into government killing a incent child.
 
What does this have to do with leftism? In the U.S., leftism would say what you're saying "who cares who pays for it as long as it gets done."

It's the right that would say "The government should not be paying for this, let the parents pay for it on their own."

So, before you throw around leftism vs. rightism, the most basic question remains "who is expected to pay for the transportation?"

I'm also interested in whether or not the parents are allowed to take the child home, without NHS medical assistance.


This is a socialist death-panel. The leftist government is deciding this child has to die, and the parents don't have a right to leave with him.

The right would insist the free people, have freedom of movement. A father should be able to take his child out of that hospital.
 
He very well stand no chance but the government should allow the parents to decide. Espicaly if the parents will fund it.

If the court hears expert opinions that this will only hurt the child should the parent be allowed to hurt the child.
 
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