Alijamain Sterling is right re: BJJ

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Royler gracie, newb werdum and a couple of others would be proud with a win off your butt like that. F that, imo ya gotta earn your position. Go and get it with a TD or else work on TDs. End of story. And this is coming from a purple belt bjj player of many years that went to renzo's
 
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I've posted my thoughts on the matter plenty here but as a BJJ guy it is fucking mind boggling why the takedown isn't incentivized more

I've said it plenty of times myself but as a BJJ guy, the BJJ scoring system is logically indefensible. You can't reward TDs and sweeps but also allow unpenalized guard pulls or butt scooting. That doesn't even make any damn sense. If TDs don't matter, just have both guys start on the knees or sitting on their asses. At least that would be intellectually honest.
 
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No he's wrong. He's the problem. In both of his recent matches he did absolutely fuck all. He doesn't engage and spends most of the match moving backwards doing no bjj. The guard player is actively trying to engage and Aljo is clowning and refusing do anything. Bjj is a two player sport. Both parties gave to want to fight. Aljo doesn't.

Guard pulling is penalized or not allowed without grips in most tournaments. This is a heavily propagated and narrative with very little presence outside of shitty sub only tournaments. And once again, when both parties engage, guard pulling is great for getting into the action. Many stand up matches are dull and slow grip fights that take forever to go to the mat (like one of Aljos).

I've posted my thoughts on the matter plenty here but as a BJJ guy it is fucking mind boggling why the takedown isn't incentivized more
It is. You get points for takedowns and penalties for sitting to guard with no grips (or at all depending on the comp). Every comp encourages TDs. This is only a problem is sub only.

I've said it plenty of times myself but as a BJJ guy, the BJJ scoring system is logically indefensible. You can't reward TDs and sweeps but also allow unpenalized guard pulls or butt scooting. That doesn't even make any damn sense. If TDs don't matter, just have both guys start on the knees or sitting on their asses. At least that would be intellectually honest.
This is a ridiculous take. Pulling guard can be a tool to more quickly engage in attacks. Pulling into sweep in sub attempts is a tool everyone should have. Many, like myself, even use failed sacrifice throws to set up guard attacks. You need to know how to pull and takedown.

Sitting and scooting on your butt looks silly and I am notba fan of it BUT what is infinitely worse is the top player being terrified of a grown man scooting at you on his ass. Learn how to pass guard for fuck sake
 
Pulling guard can be a tool to more quickly engage in attacks. Pulling into sweep in sub attempts is a tool everyone should have. Many, like myself, even use failed sacrifice throws to set up guard attacks. You need to know how to pull and takedown.

Agreed 100%. Attempted sacrifice throws whether successful or not, with guard attacks are legit. As long as you're attempting some kind of attack, sweep or sub, you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. Issue I have is pulling guard and then just hanging out there. If you do that, you clearly pulled guard merely to avoid giving up a TD and it should be scored as such.

They could fix this behavior by implementing a guard pull clock. You lose no points for pulling guard as long as you achieve at least an advantage point for sweep/sub attempt within a certain time period. But you give up 2 TD points if you don't do anything within that time period.

Sitting and scooting on your butt looks silly and I am notba fan of it BUT what is infinitely worse is the top player being terrified of a grown man scooting at you on his ass. Learn how to pass guard for fuck sake

Disagree. Learn how to take the other guy down for fuck sake. If the match starts on the feet and TDs are encouraged and scored, immediately sitting on your ass and expecting other guy to come to you is literally giving up position and displaying passivity. However if it's sub-only, which is where this is most likely to occur, TDs and butt scooting have no scoring impact anyway so everything is fair game. It's still not a great look for either man however.
 
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Agreed 100%. Attempted sacrifice throws whether successful or not, with guard attacks are legit. As long as you're attempting some kind of attack, sweep or sub, you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. Issue I have is pulling guard and then just hanging out there. If you do that, you clearly pulled guard merely to avoid giving up a TD and it should be scored as such.

They could fix this behavior by implementing a guard pull clock. You lose no points for pulling guard as long as you achieve at least an advantage point for sweep/sub attempt within a certain time period. But you give up 2 TD points if you don't do anything within that time period.



Disagree. Learn how to take the other guy down for fuck sake. If the match starts on the feet and TDs are encouraged and scored, immediately sitting on your ass and expecting other guy to come to you is literally giving up position and displaying passivity. However if it's sub-only, which is where this is most likely to occur, TDs and butt scooting have no scoring impact anyway so everything is fair game. It's still not a great look however.
If you have a active guard where you can attack and sweep from then 100% pull guard. I repeat PULL guard NOT SIT. That is a distinction that is so often ignored. Pulling to guard puts you in a directly offensive position and has practical applications. Sitting to guard is dumb and these sub only comps let you get away with it.

Still as much as I hate sitting to guard, I hate hearing people bitch about it when they do literally nothing to pass guard even more. It's a irks me to no end. Learn to pass fucking guard. If you won't engage someone just because they pulled guard then you are much worse. I got no respect for you
 
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If you have a active guard where you can attack and sweep from then 100% pull guard. I repeat PULL guard NOT SIT. That is a distinction that is so often ignored. Pulling to guard puts you in a directly offensive position and has practical applications. Sitting to guard is dumb and these sub only comps let you get away with it.

Still as much as I hate sitting to guard, I hate hearing people bitch about it when they do literally to pass guard even more. It's a irks me to no end. Learn to pass fucking guard. If you won't engage someone just because they pulled guard then you are much worse. I got no respect for you
if the match starts standing then the onus is on the guard sitter to learn a damn TD.
 
if the match starts standing then the onus is on the guard sitter to learn a damn TD.
If the match goes to the ground then the ounus is on the top guy to pass the fucking guard. Spending 10+ minutes crying about a guy scooting towards you is toddler behavior. The fight is on the ground now, move on. If I threw a fit every time someone pulled guard on my I'd never fucking medal.

The guard puller is not at fault for your trash top game. Sometimes they beat you to the punch and pull. Sucks to suck. It'd bjj not wrestling
 
If the match goes to the ground then the ounus is on the top guy to pass the fucking guard. Spending 10+ minutes crying about a guy scooting towards you is toddler behavior. The fight is on the ground now, move on. If I threw a fit every time someone pulled guard on my I'd never fucking medal.

The guard puller is not at fault for your trash top game. Sometimes they beat you to the punch and pull. Sucks to suck. It'd bjj not wrestling
Yeah but you said it yourself, if the match goes to the ground....

Not if someone sits passively and tries to preemptively force the guy into his guard. He should get stood up, warned and carded depending on how many times he does it. This just reinforces how much of a lack in enphasis there is in bjj to get better at TDs. Lets not enable that weak shit...I mean its common sense. You probably just dont like Aljo and thats ok, but come on bro
 
Yeah but you said it yourself, if the match goes to the ground....

Not if someone sits passively and tries to preemptively force the guy into his guard. He should get stood up, warned and carded depending on how many times he does it. This just reinforces how much of a lack in enphasis there is in bjj to get better at TDs. Lets not enable that weak shit...I mean its common sense. You probably just dont like Aljo and thats ok, but come on bro
Dawg, if your response to someone sitting down is to back away and throw a 10+ minute fit then you deserve to lose. That's just stupid. Just say your top game is trash. The fight is now on the ground. Not in the way that you like? Damn that sucks but oh well you still gotta engage.

There's no lack of tds in bjj. It's a stylistic preference. Damn near every gym worth their salt trains TDs. Not everyone likes to do TDs and that's fine. Pulling into an offensive guard is a perfectly fine answer. Most comps do not allow you to just sit. This is a fake issue that is heavily propagated.

I don't mind Aljo at all. He's a really good fighter and i wanted him to beat Sean. He's just wrong here. And he always blames his opponents for HIS refusal to engage. Before this he had a match that was on the feet the whole tome and it was worse than watching paint dry. No TD attempts. Constantly disengaging. Everything stand up grappling should not be.

At some point, the other guy is not the problem. His opponent wanted to fight. Aljo did not. Regardless of him being fighter I have supported, he is just wrong.
 
If you have a active guard where you can attack and sweep from then 100% pull guard. I repeat PULL guard NOT SIT. That is a distinction that is so often ignored. Pulling to guard puts you in a directly offensive position and has practical applications. Sitting to guard is dumb and these sub only comps let you get away with it.

Still as much as I hate sitting to guard, I hate hearing people bitch about it when they do literally to pass guard even more. It's a irks me to no end. Learn to pass fucking guard. If you won't engage someone just because they pulled guard then you are much worse. I got no respect for you

I think we're in agreement re. pulling vs. sitting guard, as long as pulling involves an offensive attempt at sweeping or subbing (with some success at least advantage point) and not just laying back in guard. But re. which opponent is being more of a bitch for not engaging when one sits guard? That's down to the specific ruleset as rulesets dictate gameplans.

On balance, while Aljamain is saying something a lot of us agree with, he is being a bitch for signing up for sub only and then bitching about it after the fact. I didn't see the whole match but it sounds like Dantzler threatened an armbar sub (which Sterling defended) but with no other sub attempts in the match, Dantzler rightly deserves the decision win. But I didn't see the whole match so I'm open to being corrected.

But in sub only if one guy immediately sits and other guy remains standing, you can't say it's only on standing guy for "not engaging." Both guys are being bitches for refusing to engage other guy's game. But again on balance, if it's sub only with TD scoring not a factor, I suppose that makes standing bitch a bigger bitch if he's backing away while seated bitch is butt scooting toward him. However, if seated bitch is just sitting there and standing bitch is just standing there, that makes them equally bitchmade.
 
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I think we're in agreement re. pulling vs. sitting guard, as long as pulling involves an offensive attempt at sweeping or subbing (with some success at least advantage point) and not just laying back in guard. But re. which opponent is being more of a bitch for not engaging when one sits guard? That's down to the specific ruleset as rulesets dictate gameplans.

On balance, while Aljamain is saying something a lot of us agree with, he is being a bitch for signing up for sub only and then bitching about it after the fact. I didn't see the whole match but it sounds like Dantzler threatened an armbar sub (which Sterling defended) but with no other sub attempts in the match, Dantzler rightly deserves the decision win. But I didn't see the whole match so I'm open to being corrected.

But in sub only if one guy immediately sits and other guy remains standing, you can't say it's only on standing guy for "not engaging." Both guys are being bitches for refusing to engage other guy's game. But again on balance, if it's sub only with TD scoring not a factor, I suppose that makes standing bitch a bigger bitch if he's backing away while seated bitch is butt scooting toward him. However, if seated bitch is just sitting there and standing bitch is just standing there, that makes them equally bitchmade.
I think that's a really fair and balanced take. I wholeheartedly agree.

You're not missing much by not watching the match. Aljo literally backed away and acted like a clown the whole time. Dantzler scooted forward trying to engage but wasn't attaching or fighting hard to build a full guard. He had a good armbar and that was the only interesting thing that happened.

It is a perfect example of what I don't like about sub only
 
I've said it plenty of times myself but as a BJJ guy, the BJJ scoring system is logically indefensible. You can't reward TDs and sweeps but also allow unpenalized guard pulls or butt scooting. That doesn't even make any damn sense. If TDs don't matter, just have both guys start on the knees or sitting on their asses. At least that would be intellectually honest.
I think it would change everything if the scoring system made butt-scooting a major, gutsy risk, where it was a display of a guy showing supreme faith in his game. For example, with the introduction of pins as a match-ending technique or maybe just with significant penalties and maybe even not counting sweeps earned from a butt-scooting position. I definitely think it is a major problem and it sort of stunts the ability of modern submission grappling to serve as a level proving ground between grappling styles, because you have a whole group that gets to bypass the area of grappling that most styles see as most significant--the standing portion.
 
No he's wrong. He's the problem. In both of his recent matches he did absolutely fuck all. He doesn't engage and spends most of the match moving backwards doing no bjj. The guard player is actively trying to engage and Aljo is clowning and refusing do anything. Bjj is a two player sport. Both parties gave to want to fight. Aljo doesn't.

Guard pulling is penalized or not allowed without grips in most tournaments. This is a heavily propagated and narrative with very little presence outside of shitty sub only tournaments. And once again, when both parties engage, guard pulling is great for getting into the action. Many stand up matches are dull and slow grip fights that take forever to go to the mat (like one of Aljos).


It is. You get points for takedowns and penalties for sitting to guard with no grips (or at all depending on the comp). Every comp encourages TDs. This is only a problem is sub only.


This is a ridiculous take. Pulling guard can be a tool to more quickly engage in attacks. Pulling into sweep in sub attempts is a tool everyone should have. Many, like myself, even use failed sacrifice throws to set up guard attacks. You need to know how to pull and takedown.

Sitting and scooting on your butt looks silly and I am notba fan of it BUT what is infinitely worse is the top player being terrified of a grown man scooting at you on his ass. Learn how to pass guard for fuck sake

I hated guard pullers from white to purple. By black I adopted the consensus of old players "have you considered passing the guard?"

Tons of people love half guard bottom. Some of the most successful modern nogi players have had great success with chest to chest half guard from the top (looking at Gordon and Ffion in the last ADCC). By brown belt I started REALLY working on wrecking people from half guard top.

When we roll over to combat jiu jitsu and mma, half guard top is a very dominant position to keep your opponent controlled while landing strikes.

Even at white belt I hated those assholes who disengaged constantly and only want to run around your guard for a free pass to north south. The Schaub shutdown method.


Get a grip and go to work man.
 
I think it would change everything if the scoring system made butt-scooting a major, gutsy risk, where it was a display of a guy showing supreme faith in his game. For example, with the introduction of pins as a match-ending technique or maybe just with significant penalties and maybe even not counting sweeps earned from a butt-scooting position. I definitely think it is a major problem and it sort of stunts the ability of modern submission grappling to serve as a level proving ground between grappling styles, because you have a whole group that gets to bypass the area of grappling that most styles see as most significant--the standing portion.
While I agree that butt scooting is a poor product of sport bjj, I think the solutions you suggest are worse than the problem itself.

I hate pins being match ending. That just not bjj and removes ot further from submission grappling. It just removes any guard play as a viable option at all.

And similarly, not counting sweeps from open guards just makes it even more difficult to win as a guard player and discourages guard play in any form. It too extreme of a correction. I think there's a misunderstanding about what seated guard is in a functional sense here. It's a mobilizing guard, not a sweeping or attacking guard. It's for quickly switching from stand up recovery, distance management, and engaging to set up a full guarded position.

In every tournament with point values you are unable to sit to down with no grips. And in many you get a penalty for pulling guard at all. The sport already significantly favors player who use takedowns. Even IBJJF, which people regularly criticize, will not let you just sit in seated guard indefinitely. If there is no action then you get penalties and stood up. Takedowns are and have been the meta for years and as time goes on it only gets harder to pull guard without punishment, let alone sitting.

The issue isn't the presence of guard pulling in the sport. That's what's being missed. The problem is the sub only rule set. Sub only has always been where this shit becomes an issue. There's too few restriction on how you can engage and refs almost never punish you for being passive. The issue isn't sport wide.
 
I hated guard pullers from white to purple. By black I adopted the consensus of old players "have you considered passing the guard?"

Tons of people love half guard bottom. Some of the most successful modern nogi players have had great success with chest to chest half guard from the top (looking at Gordon and Ffion in the last ADCC). By brown belt I started REALLY working on wrecking people from half guard top.

When we roll over to combat jiu jitsu and mma, half guard top is a very dominant position to keep your opponent controlled while landing strikes.

Even at white belt I hated those assholes who disengaged constantly and only want to run around your guard for a free pass to north south. The Schaub shutdown method.


Get a grip and go to work man.
1000% brother!

You can't just not engage because your opponent because he doesn't play your game. Grappling is a problem solving sport. You gotta find different ways to work around your opponent. If you can take them down, AWESOME! If not, no worries.
 
While I agree that butt scooting is a poor product of sport bjj, I think the solutions you suggest are worse than the problem itself.

I hate pins being match ending. That just not bjj and removes ot further from submission grappling. It just removes any guard play as a viable option at all.

And similarly, not counting sweeps from open guards just makes it even more difficult to win as a guard player and discourages guard play in any form. It too extreme of a correction. I think there's a misunderstanding about what seated guard is in a functional sense here. It's a mobilizing guard, not a sweeping or attacking guard. It's for quickly switching from stand up recovery, distance management, and engaging to set up a full guarded position.

In every tournament with point values you are unable to sit to down with no grips. And in many you get a penalty for pulling guard at all. The sport already significantly favors player who use takedowns. Even IBJJF, which people regularly criticize, will not let you just sit in seated guard indefinitely. If there is no action then you get penalties and stood up. Takedowns are and have been the meta for years and as time goes on it only gets harder to pull guard without punishment, let alone sitting.

The issue isn't the presence of guard pulling in the sport. That's what's being missed. The problem is the sub only rule set. Sub only has always been where this shit becomes an issue. There's too few restriction on how you can engage and refs almost never punish you for being passive. The issue isn't sport wide.
The most exciting grappling formats, by far IMO, have been Combat Wrestling and ZST GTF and Contenders. In all of those, you see people starting from the feet and you see action on the ground reset if it stalls out. The feet is taken as the natural starting point and it is seen as the responsibility of each competitor to bring their man to the ground if they want him there. The standing opponent is always seen as having the advantage and impetus is upon the person on the ground to bring the standing opponent down to your level if you want him there, otherwise, the assumption--in those formats--is that if he's standing and your on the ground, you're losing. It creates certain incentives, inspires a level of dynamism and aggression and is just more aesthetically pleasing.

As far as pins, I think that is a crucial element that needs to be made more common in grappling formats intended to be seen as neutral grounds between styles, because without it, you remove the main objective of so many styles and thus take away their ability to really interact with practitioners of other styles. People can still play guard in formats with pins; its been done in catch-wrestling competitions and it has certainly been done in judo. It just makes it something inherently risky and thus--in my eyes--more exciting, which is, IMO, as it should be.

I love the seated guard, I love butterfly, I love open guard in general. I wouldn't want to see either one eliminated but I think a competitive format that maximizes the aesthetic potential of grappling would see people playing seated guard in more of a "hot seat", the way wrestlers in the days before back points, for example, where in the "hot seat" when they used elevators and such off of their back or the way a Nick Simmons in more recent times was taking a major risk to play the game the way he did.

BTW, I actually don't think BJJ per se needs to change. But I think if you want to create a grappling format that serves as a legitimate proving ground between styles and is truly entertaining, like Combat Wrestling so consistently was, for example, there's certain things you need to do. I personally think there should be formats that are considered "professional grappling" where an emphasis on entertainment, pushing the pace, engaging and taking risks is emphasized and on the other hand, amateur competitions, where it isn't about entertainment or an audience but just about competing. I don't think BJJ has to change but I do think that submission-grappling has yet to realize its true potential as an entertaining sport and the rules and format is part of that.
 
I hated guard pullers from white to purple. By black I adopted the consensus of old players "have you considered passing the guard?"

Tons of people love half guard bottom. Some of the most successful modern nogi players have had great success with chest to chest half guard from the top (looking at Gordon and Ffion in the last ADCC). By brown belt I started REALLY working on wrecking people from half guard top.

When we roll over to combat jiu jitsu and mma, half guard top is a very dominant position to keep your opponent controlled while landing strikes.

Even at white belt I hated those assholes who disengaged constantly and only want to run around your guard for a free pass to north south. The Schaub shutdown method.


Get a grip and go to work man.
Personally, I think guard pulling and butt scooting are two different worlds. Pulling guard can be a dynamic, aggressive and high-risk move. Some of the most dynamic and exciting players were half-guard pullers, for example. I mean, pulling half-guard directly into an attack is only a hiccup away from the coolest thing of all in any athletic endeavor ever conceived--a standing leglock entry. But with butt-scooting, what I can't stand about it, is that, aside from being kinda boring, it so often involves skilled players avoiding the one area of the competition where they are more at risk and not through any feat of skill, but just by refusing to engage.
 
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