Almost All of the UK's Surface Combatants Are in Port While Germany Has No Working Subs

[GhostZ06]

british and German naval forces are both suffering from historically low readiness, with almost all of the Royal Navy’s destroyers and frigates in port and none of Germany’s submarines in working order. This only underscores existing concerns about both organizations spending priorities match their needs and their abilities to respond to crises close to home and outside of Europe.

On Dec. 20, 2017, the Royal Navy acknowledged that only one of its 13 Type 23 frigates, HMS St. Albans, was on duty protecting the United Kingdom’s national waters and that all six of its Type 45 destroyers were also pierside. Two months earlier, after an accident crippled the submarine U-35, the German Navy, or Deutsche Marine, was similarly forced to concede that this meant that all six of its Type 212A boats were sidelined for repairs.
For its part, the Royal Navy remains “deployed globally on operations and will be protecting our national interests throughout Christmas and New Year,” a spokesperson insisted to The Telegraph newspaper. “There will be 13 ships and submarines deployed away and in home waters, as well as the at sea nuclear deterrent.”


That only one of these 13 deployed vessels is a major surface combatant is a serious issue, though, and speaks to broader readiness and morale issues across the board. What the U.K. Ministry of Defense had said would be “The Year of the Royal Navy” has turned out to be full of significant disappointments for the service.
As Defense Secretary Williamson noted, construction on the first Type 26 frigates, which will replace the older Type 23s, started in July 2017. The Ministry of Defense doesn’t expect the first three of those ships, also known as the City-class, to be ready for service until the mid-2020s and there’s no fixed timeline for when the eighth and last ship will arrive.

The present plans do not provide for a one-for-one replacement of the Type 23s, either. The United Kingdom has yet to settle on a final design for the five less capable Type 31e General Purpose Frigates that it plans to buy to make up the difference.

Pre-existing budget cuts and economic uncertainty surrounding the United Kingdom’s planned departure from the European Union, commonly known as the British Exit or Brexit, surely haven’t helped matters any. In October 2017, BAE Systems, which is part of the consortium responsible for the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers and owns the shipyard building the Type 26s, announced it would cut 2,000 jobs in the United Kingdom, including hundreds supporting the Royal Navy activities.

As such, there are already indications that the U.K. Ministry of Defense may be looking to its NATO and other European allies to help with the shortfall, operating the ship in concert with other navies to reduce the strain on its own forces. The United Kingdom and the United States have gone so far as to sign a deal that will put U.S. Marine Corps F-35Bs on board Queen Elizabeth for her as yet unscheduled first operational cruise in order to make up for the lack of Fleet Air Arm aircraft.

 

[GhostZ06]

Now, the Deutsche Marine effectively has to special order new parts for every major repair, which has proven to be an expensive and time consuming process. At the same time, the consortium of German ship builders responsible for the submarines have had only a limited chance to develop their own experience with the type and shore up adequate supply chains and skilled labor forces, leading to further delays and persistent problems.

When U-35, Germany’s fifth Type 212A, joined the country’s navy in 2015, a problem with its main screw created so much noise that it was impossible for the submarine to operate effectively, according to report by Der Spiegel. Radar and communication equipment failures and accidents further crippled the ship.

Unnamed Deutsche Marine personnel at the time complained to Der Spiegelthat they had identified these same issues with U-31 years earlier and that the main contractor, ThyssenKrupp, had done nothing to fix them. When it commissioned U-36 the next year, the service initially cannibalized many of her parts to keep its sister ship operational.

Budgetary and logistical constraints mean that it’s not clear when Germany will have all six boats operational again. German shipyards are simply unable to perform the necessary work on all of the Type 212As at once, further slowing down the repair cycle.
The German Navy expects that U-36 will be back in service by May 2018. U-31, which has been sidelined since 2014, just finished its overhaul, but still needs to complete a normal series of sea trials before returning to active duty, slated for some time in 2018, as well.

Maintenance on U-34 will start in January 2018 and repairs on U-33 will begin the next month. It’s not clear how long it will take to get those two boats back in service. There is no firm start date for when there will be shipyard space for U-32, which suffered a battery failure on its way to Norway for an exercise in July 2017. And then there’s the matter of U-35, which likely hit a rock during a dive off Norway, severely damaging one of its four stern planes, which is now waiting in line for repairs.

Even if the boats were all in working order, it wouldn’t matter, though. The Deutsche Marine only has three fully trained crews and continues to struggle to meet its recruiting goals. Keeping those sailors proficient while the submarines are sidelined can only be a challenge and could further reduce their readiness.

“This is a disaster for the Navy,” Hans-Peter Bartels, who is presently the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Armed Forces in Germany, told German outlet NPD in December 2017. He added that he believed it was the “first time in history” that all of the service’s submarines would “have nothing to do for months.”

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...are-in-port-while-germany-has-no-working-subs


jesus fucking christ

 

[snakedafunky]

The Germany military has a lot of work and investment ahead of it.
But I think you can slowly see a change in German society for the reforms needed to have an offensive Army again.

Since the end of WW2 Germany was basically just a defensive tank Army. They did that quite well. But the objective was also very simple in case of war try and slow the Soviet tanks down.
That was relatively "easy" to achieve with mandatory military service and a large number of tanks.
Now with the transition to an offensive Army its more difficult because you require a different kind of soldier. Ideally, someone that stay 4+ years.
Not a guy doing his basic training for 3 months stays another 9 months after and in case of war could easily be retrained again.

But the current state is an embarrassment. I think it will take at least 10-15 years to be up to an acceptable standard.
That's actually one of the things I like about Trump. Him wanting the other NATO members to pay the 2%.
If you agree to it you should pay it. In Germany, can still achieve that by 2024 but personally I am not that hopeful.
A serious situation that needs to be addressed. We are not going back to Moscow anytime soon that's for sure.

 

[Chindit]

France is one of the last european military power... And in the French Armée de l'Air (Air Force), the vailability rate of the aircrafts is 44%...

 

[JDragon]

Actually this is a prime example of why I think the 2 percent goal is nonsense: Even if we decided to allocate more money to our submarines, we would not get superior results due to logistical or operational issues. The 2 percent goal needs to be replaced by operational KPIs / readiness targets.

What good would spending 2 percent be if it resulted in the current state of affairs?

And would it hurt if we were able to sustain an effective and ready military, but below the 2 percent?

 

[Billy no mates]

The RN has struggled since the round of cuts in 2010 , they created a lot of pressure on those that remained especially engineers .

 

[Billy no mates]

What good would spending 2 percent be if it resulted in the current state of affairs?

Exactly our Ministry of Defence would happily spend 2% of GDP on sweet FA .

 

[PrinceOfPain]

Meh.
Capable militaries only really have use to nations with cultural pride, national identity and a sense of self preservation.

Does any of that really sound like it has much place in Western Europe?

 

[snakedafunky]

Actually this is a prime example of why I think the 2 percent goal is nonsense: Even if we decided to allocate more money to our submarines, we would not get superior results due to logistical or operational issues. The 2 percent goal needs to be replaced by operational KPIs / readiness targets.

What good would spending 2 percent be if it resulted in the current state of affairs?

And would it hurt if we were able to sustain an effective and ready military, but below the 2 percent?

I don't even think in Germany spending is the biggest issue. The biggest issue is the quality of people joining the Army.
A lot of them just join because they can't make it in the private sector.
That's why they had to reduce the requirements so much compared to the mandatory service when they could just pick out of a large pool of young men.

There needs to be some kind of incentives to make better candidates willing to join.
Which is difficult compared to the US because we can't offer military person benefits like free education or health insurance.
Maybe some kind of incentive could be if you join and server for 4 years you pay 1 or 2% less income tax after.
Could be a stupid idea just brainstorming.

I recently watched a documentary about the Bundeswehr and that has changed a lot from when I did my military service back in 2004.
We weren't exactly the Navy seals back then but there was a certain standard of physical fitness and general attitude thats now almost gone.
They have to scrape the bottom of the barrel now. And they also have to be very nice to them because they don't want them to drop out. Unfortunately, that's not how a military works.

 

[Chindit]

I don't even think in Germany spending is the biggest issue. The biggest issue is the quality of people joining the Army.
A lot of them just join because they can't make it in the private sector.
That's why they had to reduce the requirements so much compared to the mandatory service when they could just pick out of a large pool of young men.

There needs to be some kind of incentives to make better candidates willing to join.
Which is difficult compared to the US because we can't offer military person benefits like free education or health insurance.
Maybe some kind of incentive could be if you join and server for 4 years you pay 1 or 2% less income tax after.
Could be a stupid idea just brainstorming.

I recently watched a documentary about the Bundeswehr and that has changed a lot from when I did my military service back in 2004.
We weren't exactly the Navy seals back then but there was a certain standard of physical fitness and general attitude thats now almost gone.
They have to scrape the bottom of the barrel now. And they also have to be very nice to them because they don't want them to drop out. Unfortunately, that's not how a military works.

 

[Trotsky]

Meh.
Capable militaries only really have use to nations with cultural pride, national identity and a sense of self preservation.

Does any of that really sound like it has much place in Western Europe?

I have read from several reputable posters that they are in the midst of a hostile invasion by foreign pillagers, so maybe?

 

[PrinceOfPain]

I have read from several reputable posters that they are in the midst of a hostile invasion by foreign pillagers, so maybe?

The "foreign pillagers" apparently have cultural pride, a strong and cohesive identity, and a strong enough sense of self-preservation that they will both fight for their current existence and breed for their future's existence.
An effective European military would just present an obstacle to those to whom ongoing existence is important.

 

[Videer]

Problems are not limited to just the navies though. But hey, they got broomsticks painted black! PE-PEW! PEW PEW!

 

[VivaRevolution]

I don't even think in Germany spending is the biggest issue. The biggest issue is the quality of people joining the Army.
A lot of them just join because they can't make it in the private sector.
That's why they had to reduce the requirements so much compared to the mandatory service when they could just pick out of a large pool of young men.

There needs to be some kind of incentives to make better candidates willing to join.
Which is difficult compared to the US because we can't offer military person benefits like free education or health insurance.
Maybe some kind of incentive could be if you join and server for 4 years you pay 1 or 2% less income tax after.
Could be a stupid idea just brainstorming.

I recently watched a documentary about the Bundeswehr and that has changed a lot from when I did my military service back in 2004.
We weren't exactly the Navy seals back then but there was a certain standard of physical fitness and general attitude thats now almost gone.
They have to scrape the bottom of the barrel now. And they also have to be very nice to them because they don't want them to drop out. Unfortunately, that's not how a military works.

I am having problems picturing military life, where they have to be nice to you, or you can go home.

Day 6 in the box, 7 hours sleep in the last 6 days.

"Hey soldier, go fix a alternator in the mud, under light discipline, when I just gave you 2 hours to go sleep, about 15 minutes ago."

"I'm sorry Sgt. but you're going to have to fuck yourself."

Sgt. turns and leaves.

 

[snakedafunky]

I am having problems picturing military life, where they have to be nice to you, or you can go home.

Day 6 in the box, 7 hours sleep in the last 6 days.

"Hey soldier, go fix a alternator in the mud, under light discipline, when I just gave you 2 hours to go sleep, about 15 minutes ago."

"I'm sorry Sgt. but you're going to have to fuck yourself."

Sgt. turns and leaves.

Lol I sort of meant "nice" for military standards.
But you have to be "nicer" to volunteers compared to a bunch of 20-year-old guys that are required to attend under the law.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

France is one of the last european military power... And in the French Armée de l'Air (Air Force), the vailability rate of the aircrafts is 44%...

UK is still a European military powerhouse. Its only just below France.

 

[Billy no mates]

UK is still a European military powerhouse. Its only just below France.

Powerhouse is a very relative term with regards to European military capability , France and the UK are just the best of a bad bunch .

 

[Koniradi98]

Meh.
Capable militaries only really have use to nations with cultural pride, national identity and a sense of self preservation.

Does any of that really sound like it has much place in Western Europe?

Luckily South Africa is such a place

 

[squeezewax]

I think modern day politicians somehow believe there'll never be another major conflict in their life time, so it's easy to cut military budgets and number of personel.

I wonder how China and Russia are fairing these days?

 

[Orgasmo]

A few months ago British government was saying that it intended to send its new carrier to challenge China in South China Sea in 2018. My first reaction was "Really? To make them laugh?" It was funny to me since the carrier won't have any operational planes until 2019, and now it has no operational escorts either.