Social Animal consciousness. Does it change your perspective?

[dirtypablo]

Lol at getting upset at me because I like eating meat. Cry me a river, buddy.

I don't think he's getting upset, just correctly pointing out that you have a mediocre at best intellect.

 

[Blayt7hh]

We have to be pedantic about science. Because if we're not, it gets overwhelmed with emotional dumbasses like this dude crying in this thread, and it all turns to shit. Being pedantic in science is good.

We aren’t doing science in here we are having a philosophical discussion. The science is the basic observations being made that they display these characteristics of what we all generally consider consciousness. The science is already there that they share these qualities with us that we previously valued as something that separated us from them. That’s now debunked and we have to reexamine our values here.

 

[dirtypablo]

LMAO - so now I am supporting rape, the holocaust and slavery? You people are insane..

See my above comment about your intellect.

I didn't say that. I said that reasoning can be used to defend those things. Your reasoning comes down to might is right. We're smarter, we're more powerful, we can, therefore its justified. That exact same reasoning justifies horrible crimes, its just that you are too stuck in your opinions and beliefs to take an honest look at your reasoning here.

 

[subtlySteve]

Humans are omnivores.

The idea that humans are naturally meant to eat meat usually comes from the fact that we can digest meat, eggs, and milk. And that's true, our bodies are set up to handle those things because we're omnivores. But that also means we can thrive on a diet that's entirely plant-based, which humans have done throughout history and even prehistory.

So just because we can eat animal products doesn't mean we have to.

Even if you accept the idea that humans naturally eat meat, that doesn't mean it's automatically right or justified.

Just because something is natural doesn't make it good or ideal.

When you think about it, taking the life of a sentient being when you don't need to is a big ethical question.

If there's no real need to do it, then the whole argument for eating meat because it's "natural" doesn't really hold up.

 

[USA!USA!]

I don't think he's getting upset, just correctly pointing out that you have a mediocre at best intellect.

Nah, it's all because someone disagrees with your line of thinking. That's fine - I honestly do not care at all. I just think its funny how instead of staying on topic you get mad and start insulting someone.. says a lot about your own mindset I think.

 

[ObsoleteSoul]

Lol at getting upset at me because I like eating meat. Cry me a river, buddy.

That is what happens when you do not eat meat. You get real full of yourself, real quick.

To speak of a point you mentioned, I tried to be a vegetarian many many times over the years, but it messes with how well I function in every day life. Especially my mental state and ability to perform at my job to the best of my abilities. Maybe it is just something wrong with me, but, I have to do what is best to provide for my kids and staying healthy.

 

[dirtypablo]

Nah, it's all because someone disagrees with your line of thinking. That's fine - I honestly do not care at all. I just think its funny how instead of staying on topic you get mad and start insulting someone.. says a lot about your own mindset I think.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out that someone is stupid or of average at best intelligence, especially when it is relevant to the topic.

 

[dirtypablo]

We don't even know what consciousness is at the moment, just a million theories of it, so the statement that there's consciousness in animals is a bit of a stretch. At most you can say there's awareness of external stimuli, but that does not imply awareness of that awareness, or deeper stages of self-reflection.

The overwhelming majority of people aren't truly aware of awareness. Based on your posts in this topic and others, I can pretty much guarantee you're included in that group.

 

[subtlySteve]

I tried to be a vegetarian many many times over the years, but it messes with how well I function in every day life. Especially my mental state and ability to perform at my job to the best of my abilities.

What I've observed time and time again is that people complain about not feeling well, but that feeling is very often not supported by lab work or an examination by a doctor.

Did you get any lab tests or see a doctor about it?

If there was something missing in your diet, it would probably show up in your blood work, and you could have adjusted it with the right supplements while still sticking to a vegetarian diet.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

We aren’t doing science in here we are having a philosophical discussion. The science is the basic observations being made that they display these characteristics of what we all generally consider consciousness. The science is already there that they share these qualities with us that we previously valued as something that separated us from them. That’s now debunked and we have to reexamine our values here.

well science tells you the numbers and the data, and the data doesn't really match with the philosophy. and philosophy is a wrong term anyway, what we are talking about is ethics. if consciousness is from 1 to 100 and we are at 100 and the animal is a 0.1, there's no "philosophical" debate required. again, you're just falling into the charismatic animal trap, thinking of kittens and puppies. there's no need to reexamine any values for the vast, overwhelming majority of animals.
thinking we are on the same consciousness level with animals is a religious position, not a scientific one.

 

[Blayt7hh]

That's highly debatable.



Taking an animal's life for food is a bigger deal than just making them suffer. Sure, it's great when people care enough to reduce suffering by buying things like "free-range" eggs or "humane" meat. But when you think about it, if we believe these animals have the right to live their natural lives, then killing them is a way bigger issue than mistreating them.

You're stuck in a contradiction.

It’s not a contradiction though. Those choice to reduce their suffering is an improvement even if it is an imperfect solution.

I would also say that I don’t see the harm in eating eggs or drinking milk from well cared for animals. I’m not terribly interested in their lives being “natural” as their life in the natural world likely would be shorter, more uncomfortable and with a more violent ending then free range chickens or grass fed cows get to enjoy.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

The overwhelming majority of people aren't truly aware of awareness. Based on your posts in this topic and others, I can pretty much guarantee you're included in that group.

lmao, another whiner.

 

[White Whale]

The idea that humans are naturally meant to eat meat usually comes from the fact that we can digest meat, eggs, and milk. And that's true, our bodies are set up to handle those things because we're omnivores. But that also means we can thrive on a diet that's entirely plant-based, which humans have done throughout history and even prehistory.

So just because we can eat animal products doesn't mean we have to.

Even if you accept the idea that humans naturally eat meat, that doesn't mean it's automatically right or justified.

Just because something is natural doesn't make it good or ideal.

When you think about it, taking the life of a sentient being when you don't need to is a big ethical question.

If there's no real need to do it, then the whole argument for eating meat because it's "natural" doesn't really hold up.

Chimpanzees eat meat when they can survive on fruit and vegetables they are highly intelligent animals.

 

[dirtypablo]

lmao, another whiner.

if consciousness is from 1 to 100 and we are at 100 and the animal is a 0.1

Nope, just pointing out that you don't know the first thing about the nature of conscious awareness.

 

[USA!USA!]

If you look into what "free-range" or "grass-fed" really means, you'll find there's a ton of wiggle room in the legal definitions, and none of it is aimed at giving animals a better life beyond what's necessary to get them to slaughter.

I'd love to live in a world where people really cared about animals, but you won't find that attitude in most farming businesses.

There is a lot here but instead of just continuing to argue with you I will say I agree with a lot of the above. It's unfortunate that a lot of these animals do not have better lives before slaughter and that companies just label things a certain way to deceive people.

I do think there are humane farmers who try to do the best they can before its time for the animals to die, but that is not who you are buying 99% of meat from at the grocery store. You have to have connections or live nearby and get it direct from the source.

I buy direct from farms and hunters yearly because I actually know who it is from and where it is coming from.. but I do not live in the countryside, and there are times where I just pick something up at the grocery store (like most people). Definitely an area of improvement for humans.

I know we won't agree on the topic but I at least (mostly) agree with what you said here.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Nope, just pointing out that you don't know the first thing about the nature of conscious awareness.

neither do you and it's very obvious.
it's ok if you're intellectually closer to animals though. there's people that will fight for your right to vote.

 

[subtlySteve]

Chimpanzees eat meat when they can survive on fruit and vegetables they are highly intelligent animals.

Chimpanzees also shit in their hand and throw it, so I suppose we should do that too.

 

[ObsoleteSoul]

What I've observed time and time again is that people complain about not feeling well, but that feeling is very often not supported by lab work or an examination by a doctor.

That is nice. What I have observed, with trying it multiple times over the last decade, is exactly what I wrote.

If given the choice between moral bankruptcy or taking care of my well-being and those I provide for, I will take the moral hit here. Nobody else is going to take care of them, so it is up to me.

 

[Bojka]

That is nice. What I have observed, with trying it multiple times over the last decade, is exactly what I wrote.

If given the choice between moral bankruptcy or taking care of my well-being and those I provide for, I will take the moral hit here. Nobody else is going to take care of them, so it is up to me.

You went full vegan? Novak Djokovic competed at the highest level while completely vegan. Mind you he is wealthy and can afford the best food and supplements and whatnot. I'm not aware of what you think you'd be deficient in if you ate eggs and dairy. And maybe supplemented something trivial like a B complex.

 

[dirtypablo]

neither do you and it's very obvious.
it's ok if you're intellectually closer to animals though. there's people that will fight for your right to vote.

What did I say that was incorrect?

Tell me about awareness - what is the relationship between awareness and consciousness? Which is prior, and how does one arise from the other? And what if one is prior to the other, what is prior to that? What is the quantifiable nature of consciousness that could be reduced on a scale from 1 to 100? Can you give an example of the felt experience of a 25 consciousness? Is consciousness continuous moment to moment, or is it discreet? Is there any degree of persistence between one moment of consciousness to the next?