Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira or Daniel Cormier - Who do you rank higher in the GOAT rankings?

[markg171]

Jones remained the #1 ranked LHW until 2017.

2015
2016

You keep trying to argue reality.

And he doubles down with unofficial rankings.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I give the edge to Cormier. I was a big Nog fan (no pun)… but I have to just be honest with myself as to who the better fighter was. Cormier was a beast and would have rag dolled him if they fought prime vs prime. Cormier is an absolutely incredible top5 HW all time MMA talent. Also career vs career it isn’t even a question.

I don't like ranking fighters based on hypothetical fights, it gets messy. I think resumes is the best way to rank since it's something that we can measure and that did happen and it's more objective.

 

[moreorless87]

Cormier fought grapplers before. He fought them using a game plan. He would grind them against the fence and try to score takedowns towards the end of the round. Cormier has more ways to win than Nogueira. Nogueira can't dictate where the fight would take place. Like I said, I don't believe the fight would even hit the ground unless DC wanted it there. It comes down to if Nog is a competent clinch fighter. DC was the king of that grinding style until he fought Jones.

Werdum is a different grappler than Nog. I would say he is more dangerous in his setup. He was physically stronger where he can snatch a sub instead of waiting for one like Nog. I don't want to make it seem Nog is an inferior grappler but he couldn't force subs. He had to wait for an opening or make one. Guys like Mir are initially more dangerous on the ground. Mir might not be as durable but if he gets a bite then he is going to try to break something.

I don't think the Mir fight even went to the ground at all did it? Again I don't think Cormier really had to deal with an opponent who was that dangerous on the ground.

I wouldnt say Nog needed to wait for a sub opening like Mir either, he was very good at setting them up, either fishing for them from his back or in transitions.

Cormier is definately the superior wrestler although if your talking prime Nog I would not say SO superior he could definately avoid being taken down, especially if a fight goes long and I think that would probably be his main danger vs Nog. He's have to engage him in a boxing match for 20-25 mins and even in a case I don't think he'd be able to clinch him to rest as much as vs Mir who was always vulnerable to that(even vs a VERY declined Nog), infact I think in the clinch it would be DC who'd be in more danger from Nogs knees.

 

[SuperNerd]

Aaaannnnnnnnn..TOOOOoooonnnnii-Yoo
Hooooooooooooooddd-REeEeGO!
NO! GEAR! RAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

imo

 

[moreorless87]

Well, I think that kind of fight in the clinch actually favors Nog. Cormier was an excellent clinch fighter and had the control grinding style. But Big Nog was great in the clinch himself in doing damage and being very offensive. If you watch his fights with Mir, Couture and Barnett, he dominated those guys in the clinch. Good dirty boxing, elbows, knees.

Overall I would favor Big Nog to win that fight by Decision.

To be honest I think that could turn out to be the deciding factor if the match ends up as standup, Nog outworks/cardios DC who looks to the clinch and gets up eating knees.

Wrestling wise I would not rule out Nog entirely either, he was a better wrestler than Werdum in his prime and like Maia had the advantage he committed hard to takedowns because he wasnt afraid of being reversed.

 

[DayV]

Cormier fought grapplers before. He fought them using a game plan. He would grind them against the fence and try to score takedowns towards the end of the round. Cormier has more ways to win than Nogueira. Nogueira can't dictate where the fight would take place. Like I said, I don't believe the fight would even hit the ground unless DC wanted it there. It comes down to if Nog is a competent clinch fighter. DC was the king of that grinding style until he fought Jones.

Werdum is a different grappler than Nog. I would say he is more dangerous in his setup. He was physically stronger where he can snatch a sub instead of waiting for one like Nog. I don't want to make it seem Nog is an inferior grappler but he couldn't force subs. He had to wait for an opening or make one. Guys like Mir are initially more dangerous on the ground. Mir might not be as durable but if he gets a bite then he is going to try to break something.

In Pride or Rings rules, not only Nog, but non elite level fighters like Mario Sperry, Yoshida, Ogawa, Inoue who are submission specialists would have good chance to beat Cormier, with 10 minute round, GI allowed, no fence, no elbows, Pride gloves - no open fingers mummy approaching. They would welcome beeing taken down, or pull guard, and DC would have to play BJJ-judo submission game against guys with greater skill and knowledge than him. There is a good chance he would have picked up unexpected losses having to fight more often and in tournaments.

 

[NoSmilez]

I don't think the Mir fight even went to the ground at all did it? Again I don't think Cormier really had to deal with an opponent who was that dangerous on the ground.

I wouldnt say Nog needed to wait for a sub opening like Mir either, he was very good at setting them up, either fishing for them from his back or in transitions.

Cormier is definately the superior wrestler although if your talking prime Nog I would not say SO superior he could definately avoid being taken down, especially if a fight goes long and I think that would probably be his main danger vs Nog. He's have to engage him in a boxing match for 20-25 mins and even in a case I don't think he'd be able to clinch him to rest as much as vs Mir who was always vulnerable to that(even vs a VERY declined Nog), infact I think in the clinch it would be DC who'd be in more danger from Nogs knees.

DC fought a grinding match against Barnett and almost stopped him. I don't think Nog can beat him in the clinch. Physically Nog isn't a strong guy. DC as the first half of his career as a HW was dominating other ranked fighters. He was so green too. A lot of people remember DC as a flabby eye poker but it wasn't the case early on in his career. He fought Mir using a gameplan. Mir couldn't really do anything either.

No offense to Nog but his BJJ is really basic. You can neutralize if you understand what he is doing. What made him special was his ability to take punishment and outlast others. I would give Nog an advantage with a ten minute round but 5 min round doesn't favor him at all. It's too short of a time to really catch subs. As least for his style.

 

[NoSmilez]

In Pride or Rings rules, not only Nog, but non elite level fighters like Mario Sperry, Yoshida, Ogawa, Inoue who are submission specialists would have good chance to beat Cormier, with 10 minute round, GI allowed, no fence, no elbows, Pride gloves - no open fingers mummy approaching. They would welcome beeing taken down, or pull guard, and DC would have to play BJJ-judo submission game against guys with greater skill and knowledge than him. There is a good chance he would have picked up unexpected losses having to fight more often and in tournaments.

You are trolling. Yoshida, Ogawa and Inoue will sub DC? I don't think you really watched his fights until later in his career especially making that open fingers statement.

 

[Black-Joto]

Big Nog

 

[DayV]

You are trolling. Yoshida, Ogawa and Inoue will sub DC? I don't think you really watched his fights until later in his career especially making that open fingers statement.

Ye, why not. They're better submission artists than him , with more knowledge and experience . 10 minute round, they wear GI, no elbows, no fence, fight goes to the ground. What me, or you watched about Cormier in cage and american version of MMA, could be a totally different thing in different rules and conditions.

 

[moreorless87]

DC fought a grinding match against Barnett and almost stopped him. I don't think Nog can beat him in the clinch. Physically Nog isn't a strong guy. DC as the first half of his career as a HW was dominating other ranked fighters. He was so green too. A lot of people remember DC as a flabby eye poker but it wasn't the case early on in his career. He fought Mir using a gameplan. Mir couldn't really do anything either.

No offense to Nog but his BJJ is really basic. You can neutralize if you understand what he is doing. What made him special was his ability to take punishment and outlast others. I would give Nog an advantage with a ten minute round but 5 min round doesn't favor him at all. It's too short of a time to really catch subs. As least for his style.

I disagree, he worked some very effective BJJ by misdirection and was also very good at making openings during scrambles, if he had a weakness in pure BJJ its that he wasnt on the level of Werdum in terms of "position then submission" style fighting, not well suited to pure BJJ/ADCC as a result.

Barnett was much more of a top gamer than Nog but even then Cormier mostly fought him standing. You could question it I spose but I think Josh breaking both hands was a significant part of the fight but also I think Nog was a better clinch fighter and Josh did land some good knees on Cormier late in the fight as he tired.

 

[markg171]

In Pride or Rings rules, not only Nog, but non elite level fighters like Mario Sperry, Yoshida, Ogawa, Inoue who are submission specialists would have good chance to beat Cormier, with 10 minute round, GI allowed, no fence, no elbows, Pride gloves - no open fingers mummy approaching. They would welcome beeing taken down, or pull guard, and DC would have to play BJJ-judo submission game against guys with greater skill and knowledge than him. There is a good chance he would have picked up unexpected losses having to fight more often and in tournaments.

Holy fuck you Pride nerds get more and more delusional as the years go by

 

[markg171]

To be honest I think that could turn out to be the deciding factor if the match ends up as standup, Nog outworks/cardios DC who looks to the clinch and gets up eating knees.

Wrestling wise I would not rule out Nog entirely either, he was a better wrestler than Werdum in his prime and like Maia had the advantage he committed hard to takedowns because he wasnt afraid of being reversed.

DC's entire success against Jones was in the clinch, even if Jon beat him there too as Jon's a clinch master, but fucking Nogueira is going to beat him there???

And Nog's going to outwrestle DC???

Jesus Christ guys.

 

[markg171]

No offense to Nog but his BJJ is really basic. You can neutralize if you understand what he is doing. What made him special was his ability to take punishment and outlast others. I would give Nog an advantage with a ten minute round but 5 min round doesn't favor him at all. It's too short of a time to really catch subs. As least for his style.

The only way I can make any sense at all of the people saying Nog wins is if they're imaging Cormier being green and growing up in Pride without any of his experience while Nog is by comparison Prime Nog and has all of his experience, durability, etc.

Cause otherwise some of these fantasies are just absurd if they're actually pitting Prime Cormier vs Prime Nog.

The real reason I wanted to quote you though is on the question of Nog's durability as that plays a part in the above mentioned discussions. Prime Nog's durability is rather overrated, and is in large part based on Pride fans overrating Fedor's GNP (we've seen better), Pride simply let things go that wouldn't happen today, as well as luck. I'm by no means saying he had a bad chin or anything, it was like Frankie recovery level great rather than a cinder block, but people talk about stuff like him "surviving" Cro Cop to sub him. CC dropped him at the end of the 1st and the ref actually stopped the fight, but the fight continued because he stopped it 1 second after the bell. That's not Nog's chin carrying him through Cro Cop's power lol. That's pure luck that he got dropped at the bell instead of 1 second earlier where Cro Cop's GNP would've counted and CC would've instead won by 1st round KO.

We've got a lot of people saying it's impossible to KO Nog back then and it's just not true. He was hurt plenty of times, he just usually got back up. And had people afraid of his grappling which DC wouldn't be. Would I bet on DC being the one to do it? Probably not no, but that's more to do with I'd never really bet on DC KO for anybody short of a glass chin. But pretending its impossible despite all the times Nog got hurt, and the potential scenario they're in (Pride vs UFC), is silly.

 

[moreorless87]

The only way I can make any sense at all of the people saying Nog wins is if they're imaging Cormier being green and growing up in Pride without any of his experience while Nog is by comparison Prime Nog and has all of his experience, durability, etc.

Cause otherwise some of these fantasies are just absurd if they're actually pitting Prime Cormier vs Prime Nog.

The real reason I wanted to quote you though is on the question of Nog's durability as that plays a part in the above mentioned discussions. Prime Nog's durability is rather overrated, and is in large part based on Pride fans overrating Fedor's GNP (we've seen better), Pride simply let things go that wouldn't happen today, as well as luck. I'm by no means saying he had a bad chin or anything, it was like Frankie recovery level great rather than a cinder block, but people talk about stuff like him "surviving" Cro Cop to sub him. CC dropped him at the end of the 1st and the ref actually stopped the fight, but the fight continued because he stopped it 1 second after the bell. That's not Nog's chin carrying him through Cro Cop's power lol. That's pure luck that he got dropped at the bell instead of 1 second earlier where Cro Cop's GNP would've counted and CC would've instead won by 1st round KO.

We've got a lot of people saying it's impossible to KO Nog back then and it's just not true. He was hurt plenty of times, he just usually got back up. And had people afraid of his grappling which DC wouldn't be. Would I bet on DC being the one to do it? Probably not no, but that's more to do with I'd never really bet on DC KO for anybody short of a glass chin. But pretending its impossible despite all the times Nog got hurt, and the potential scenario they're in (Pride vs UFC), is silly.

Nog didnt have a chin like Hunt were he wouldnt get hurt at all but he had amazing recovery and coolness under pressure.

Again really I think the reality is Cormier was never fully tested against elite sub grappling simply because their was very little of it about in his era. Actually head to head with Nog I would certainly not be greatly confident in any prediction but I think Nogs superior cardio could likely be a big factor, especially if Cormier mostly strikes with him.

I think Cormier benefited from fighting a relatively narrow range of opponents as well, guys like say Reem and Werdum in his own era with really dangerous knees could have been a real problem for him. In Pride I think Mirko would likely eat him up fairly quickly with bodykicks if he didnt get a KO or a takedown fast.

 

[markg171]

It's strong and noteworthy GNP yes, but nothing like when Jones was literally breaking faces coming up. Plenty of people would survive this when they're not previously hurt like Nog wasn't.

Nog didnt have a chin like Hunt were he wouldnt get hurt at all but he had amazing recovery and coolness under pressure.

I agree, but this also benefitted from fighting in Pride. Pride wanted violent finishes like Rampage keeled over the ropes dripping blood, not soft "he was done" finishes.

Today's MMA where they stop things often much faster he might've taken a few TKO losses if he got dropped hard enough or took enough GNP afterwards. Having great recovery isn't better than a cinder block chin nowadays, but did work well in Pride and the earlier days.

Again really I think the reality is Cormier was never fully tested against elite sub grappling simply because their was very little of it about in his era.

Well it was more than Cormier's an amazing top grappler himself and so either never put himself in the position in the first place or just controlled it when he was. He's a brown belt and Olympian himself, of course he can grapple with guys.

Cause otherwise trying to say:

Monson
Bigfoot
Barnett
Mir
Nelson
Silva

Aren't elite submission grapplers is just beyond absurd lol. He did fight them, he just never let them get it off.

Actually head to head with Nog I would certainly not be greatly confident in any prediction but I think Nogs superior cardio could likely be a big factor, especially if Cormier mostly strikes with him.

I've always said cardio's a weak spot of Cormier's, but we have no real idea if Nog has better cardio than Cormier seeing as Nog's never gone 25 minutes like Cormier has multiple times. Pride fights were either 15 minutes (GP) or 20 minutes, and they got 2 minute breaks between rounds, not 1. The only times Nog was scheduled for 25 minutes with only 1 minute breaks the fights ended by finish every time so he never had to go past the 3rd like any other fight. We have no idea what he looks like past the 20 minute mark, let alone with having had 4x1 minute breaks instead of 2x2 minute breaks.

I think a 10 minute 1st round is certainly probably bad for Cormier and he'd likely slow down in the back half of one, but 2 minute breaks are also much better for him too and would let him come out fresher for each round, and it's only 20 minutes total instead of 25. So harder starting round likely, but much easier total fight and recovery for him.

So it's two unknowns.

I think Cormier benefited from fighting a relatively narrow range of opponents as well, guys like say Reem and Werdum in his own era with really dangerous knees could have been a real problem for him. In Pride I think Mirko would likely eat him up fairly quickly with bodykicks if he didnt get a KO or a takedown fast.

I agree, and I've said for years that Cormier moving down to LHW when he did was a god send for his career as he was at the point in the rankings and timing that he was going to have to face guys like Overeem and Werdum. Mir wilted DC with a body kick and knees, Overeem leaves him on the floor if he lands one.

Maybe he does win his way to the belt then (assuming Cain leaves for him or loses his belt), but I think he'd have likely taken 1 or more losses if he'd stuck around and had to fight Cain, JDS, Overeem, Werdum, Stipe, etc., who were around back then.

 

[BowserJr]

One of for sure. I think Coleman, CC, Sapp, and Barnett2 are the iconic wins.

Tim Sylvia too

 

[moreorless87]

It's strong and noteworthy GNP yes, but nothing like when Jones was literally breaking faces coming up. Plenty of people would survive this when they're not previously hurt like Nog wasn't.

I think that's monstrous GnP, maybe Jones TKO of Vera might come close but of course that ended a fight, Nog survived and went to a decision.

I agree, but this also benefitted from fighting in Pride. Pride wanted violent finishes like Rampage keeled over the ropes dripping blood, not soft "he was done" finishes.

Today's MMA where they stop things often much faster he might've taken a few TKO losses if he got dropped hard enough or took enough GNP afterwards. Having great recovery isn't better than a cinder block chin nowadays, but did work well in Pride and the earlier days.

Its possible I spose Fedor/Nog may have been called a TKO in todays UFC although my guess is probably not as it was more spells of big shots with Nog showing he was in the fight still pretty fast. Fedor vs Herring I think would likely have been a TKO in the UFC though, that has a long spell early on of of Heath just taking bombs barely surivving.

Well it was more than Cormier's an amazing top grappler himself and so either never put himself in the position in the first place or just controlled it when he was. He's a brown belt and Olympian himself, of course he can grapple with guys.

Cause otherwise trying to say:

Monson
Bigfoot
Barnett
Mir
Nelson
Silva

Aren't elite submission grapplers is just beyond absurd lol. He did fight them, he just never let them get it off.

A lot of those fights didnt hit the ground though and someone like Monson even moreso than Barnett was a top game fighter, he rarely showned much threat off of his back.

Silva is probably the fight were Cormier had to face a decent bottom game most but honestly Anderson was never close to Nog off of his back and he was also years past his prime and from 2 divisions lower down.

I've always said cardio's a weak spot of Cormier's, but we have no real idea if Nog has better cardio than Cormier seeing as Nog's never gone 25 minutes like Cormier has multiple times. Pride fights were either 15 minutes (GP) or 20 minutes, and they got 2 minute breaks between rounds, not 1. The only times Nog was scheduled for 25 minutes with only 1 minute breaks the fights ended by finish every time so he never had to go past the 3rd like any other fight. We have no idea what he looks like past the 20 minute mark, let alone with having had 4x1 minute breaks instead of 2x2 minute breaks.

I think a 10 minute 1st round is certainly probably bad for Cormier and he'd likely slow down in the back half of one, but 2 minute breaks are also much better for him too and would let him come out fresher for each round, and it's only 20 minutes total instead of 25. So harder starting round likely, but much easier total fight and recovery for him.

So it's two unknowns.

I agree, and I've said for years that Cormier moving down to LHW when he did was a god send for his career as he was at the point in the rankings and timing that he was going to have to face guys like Overeem and Werdum. Mir wilted DC with a body kick and knees, Overeem leaves him on the floor if he lands one.

Maybe he does win his way to the belt then (assuming Cain leaves for him or loses his belt), but I think he'd have likely taken 1 or more losses if he'd stuck around and had to fight Cain, JDS, Overeem, Werdum, Stipe, etc., who were around back then.

Its hard to say exactly how they compare but honestly I think there pretty similar, look at say Nog's fight with Herring the first time and thats a VERY high tempo match across the whole 20 mins with no sign of slowing down, he even looked to have the edge on Fedor, maybe not enough to be winning the fights but they became closer the latter they went.

Cormier doesnt exactly have bad cardio compared to some HW's but he's had plenty of fights were its wilted quite a bit after 3-4 rounds and I think if he's standing with Nog that would likely be a pretty fast paced fight.

A big factor for me as well is Nog is one of those fighters who just has the will to win, the ability to have that moment of magic which I'm not sure Cormier does. Guys like Anderson were the same and even late his his career well past his prime he had DC badly hurt, a few years earlier and over 5 rounds who knows how that goes?

 

[BowserJr]

HW Nog

Overall maybe DC. Nog has an overall better resume in terms of the combined rank and skill of the guys he beat though

 

[gspieler]

Nog has the stronger resume(particularly at HW). Peak for peak, it could go either way.