Applying "old school" Boxing to Muay Thai

[Soul Rebel 2]

What does old school even mean? Something that made trainers from the golden years stand out is the ability to teach multiple styles/approaches. Tysons peek a boo style was very much an old school method even though it looked more contemporary. There are many more nuances than merely putting your head off centre such as hand fighting, body work, controlling the centreline, checking your opponents movement and walking them into strikes using your footwork. These are concepts that work from pretty much any stance and in fact can befit TREMENDOUSLY from the inclusion of kicks to your offensive options.

 

[DuckandCover]

Not sure how much effort I'll put into this thread but will give some hints for the OPs sake:

Weight 90% on the back foot, slightly bladed stance, hip folded at an angle. Lead hand pointed at target, rear hand touching jaw but no higher.

Dealing with kicks to your rear side: Due to the weight on your rear leg you will not be able to check in time with it, and taking kicks on the arm under MT rules is almost as bad as on the ribs. You will need to learn to use your front leg to cross check which is very fast with all the weight off it.

Dealing with head kicks: yes i've read the threads on this, you should be swaying back to make head kicks miss. Its how the Thai's do it even with a high guard, its very easy to do. Your rear hand should be at jaw level in case anything slips through, i personally don't like having it any lower even though no one lands head kicks on me. Your lead side jaw will be protected the same way as from hooks - your stance raising the shoulder up.

Dealing with leg kicks: if anything its easier to deal with than a front foot stance, due to the lack of weight its easier to check and to pull the front leg back. If you are too bladed you will have issues turning the leg to check in time. Learn how to pull the leg out of range and counter if this the case.

Dealing with the clinch: your arms are on the inside, you have the advantage to control the centreline but need to be quick to react with change to a clinch stance, failure to do so will be painful. If you don't control their arms you will be elbowed, guess what.. its the same scenario if you had a high guard and front foot stance. The high guard have an advantage with throwing elbows outside of the clinch for what its worth.

Compared to the current MT popular stance it has strengths and weaknesses, I wouldn't call it better for MT rules but it can be used. Under MMA rules you won't catch me dead in today's MT stance.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

A few things i'd like to add to DuckAndCover's post (which is an excellent post on this subject)
-90/10 weight distribution imo is a tad too much. Maybe 70/30 or 60/40. But it is up to you.
-Lead hand point toward the other guy's centreline like a knife to threaten him, as if "i'm gonna hurt you with this"
-The lead shoulder raise is achieve by tilt the hip forward. That way the shoulder will come up on its own without you actually need to do it yourself.
-If you like to fade back as a measure against high kick, try to twist your back leg 45 degrees angle instead of 90 degrees and widen your base a bit. This is to ensure that when you fade away your head don't come over your back leg, which can really be scary since you won't have balance in that moment.
-Use the teep. In this stance it really facciliate the usage of the teep as a weapon.

 

[SideofKO]

Sometimes sports begin to either evolve or devolve depending on how one looks at it. That is, the rule set changes and either begins to favor other weapons or tactics, or introduces more variables (such as gloves, headgear, spiky Mad Max style death fists) you get trainers who want to mold their fighters around this rule set.

This is problematic because when this happens model shifts occur in the reasoning of trainers over time. Some things are lost, some things aren't lost but just aren't valued because of the newer rules, and some just aren't understood enough. I've met and trained many pro fighters, MMA and Boxing alike and have worked with countless Nak Muay and they ARE a lot of time ignorant of old school principles primarily because they weren't taught this way.

So what does this mean? It either means that their trainers are aware of these principles and understand them but don't value them due to ignorance or due to some conflict with their methodology. Or they are aware of them and are just ignorant of the benefits or detriments and perhaps out of tradition just ignore them. And perhaps they just do not know them. I can't say what is more likely but what I can say is that reintroducing these old school boxing principles isn't a bad thing in itself.

In fact it could just be the next evolution of the sport.

 

[JohnWitch]

Hey Saamag, thanks for the answer. I should have clarified that I plan on competing next year or at the end of this one, so I'm looking at this from that point of view.

I'm using the term "old school boxing" to refer to a style that emphasizes defense and offense through positioning and good footwork. What Sinister teaches, basically (sorry if I'm paraphrasing, Sinister).

Nuclearlandmine and DuckandCover: That helped a lot, seriously. I'll let your suggestions sink in and I'll try it the next time I'm training. I've always had my weight too forward as I prefer to jump in quickly and lead with hooks and bodyshots.

Thing is, does this style apply to people who are much shorter than their opponents? Or is it simply harder to put to good use? Because all the fighters that I see being successful with this are usually taller, the same size, or at least only a bit shorter than their opponents. In K1 and Boxing, especially, I noticed (maybe wrongly) that most short fighters have their weight in the front foot and rely on their guard.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Sometimes sports begin to either evolve or devolve depending on how one looks at it. That is, the rule set changes and either begins to favor other weapons or tactics, or introduces more variables (such as gloves, headgear, spiky Mad Max style death fists) you get trainers who want to mold their fighters around this rule set.

This is problematic because when this happens model shifts occur in the reasoning of trainers over time. Some things are lost, some things aren't lost but just aren't valued because of the newer rules, and some just aren't understood enough. I've met and trained many pro fighters, MMA and Boxing alike and have worked with countless Nak Muay and they ARE a lot of time ignorant of old school principles primarily because they weren't taught this way.

So what does this mean? It either means that their trainers are aware of these principles and understand them but don't value them due to ignorance or due to some conflict with their methodology. Or they are aware of them and are just ignorant of the benefits or detriments and perhaps out of tradition just ignore them. And perhaps they just do not know them. I can't say what is more likely but what I can say is that reintroducing these old school boxing principles isn't a bad thing in itself.

In fact it could just be the next evolution of the sport.

Excellent post. Although i'd like to add that the lack of old school methods can also be contribute to broken proper trainer lineage, people who have no business being a trainer throw a towel around their neck and call themselves trainer (this is tied to popularity of a sport too, so being popular isn't neccesarily a good thing as a whole) and half-assed techniques that taught by those people just to "suffice" instead of "correct". These things happened in boxing throughout the last 100 years, so it is not a stretch to see the same thing happened to Muay Thai, which arguably have even more popularity in Thailand now compare to Boxing in the US.

And yeah, i'd love to see the reintroduction of old school methods in modern time as its next step of evolution after imho a period of devolvement.

 

[SideofKO]

And yeah, i'd love to see the reintroduction of old school methods in modern time as its next step of evolution after imho a period of devolvement.

I don't this is as much of a problem as it is in the US. And it is a problem in the US. But in Thailand at least it's so entrenched in Muay Thai and everyone is so cognizant of it that it would be almost impossible to get taken seriously as a trainer when there are people who take actual gyms as their last name because of what they've accomplished there.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but the lineages are pretty well maintained in a place where they give their children to successful gyms for the chance at a better life.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Hey Saamag, thanks for the answer. I should have clarified that I plan on competing next year or at the end of this one, so I'm looking at this from that point of view.

I'm using the term "old school boxing" to refer to a style that emphasizes defense and offense through positioning and good footwork. What Sinister teaches, basically (sorry if I'm paraphrasing, Sinister).

Nuclearlandmine and DuckandCover: That helped a lot, seriously. I'll let your suggestions sink in and I'll try it the next time I'm training. I've always had my weight too forward as I prefer to jump in quickly and lead with hooks and bodyshots.

Thing is, does this style apply to people who are much shorter than their opponents? Or is it simply harder to put to good use? Because all the fighters that I see being successful with this are usually taller, the same size, or at least only a bit shorter than their opponents. In K1 and Boxing, especially, I noticed (maybe wrongly) that most short fighters have their weight in the front foot and rely on their guard.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

Most, if not all the philosophies and techniques of old school boxing works by adapting to your game and personal preference, not the other way around. To me once you get your head around how it works and apply it properly, you will be able to mold your own style based on what you know. So even if you are small, i'm sure you can mold your own style that suitable to your preferences and frame after you have understood the concept of using footworks and positioning to your offense and defense.

Here is one thing i'm sure you will like: the hop step.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I don't this is as much of a problem as it is in the US. And it is a problem in the US. But in Thailand at least it's so entrenched in Muay Thai and everyone is so cognizant of it that it would be almost impossible to get taken seriously as a trainer when there are people who take actual gyms as their last name because of what they've accomplished there.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but the lineages are pretty well maintained in a place where they give their children to successful gyms for the chance at a better life.

It look to me though it sort of have the same problems with lineages as the US, maybe not as drastic but from what i've seen, there's definitely somewhat of a loss, specially after watching old school muay thai fights vs modern muay thai fight. Come to think of it, it might just be the pollution from cross-training with modern boxing overtime that make it so. But i'm just making an educated guess here from what i've seen. There are too many factors involved.

 

[SideofKO]

It look to me though it sort of have the same problems with lineages as the US, maybe not as drastic but from what i've seen, there's definitely somewhat of a loss, specially after watching old school muay thai fights vs modern muay thai fight. Come to think of it, it might just be the pollution from cross-training with modern boxing overtime that make it so. But i'm just making an educated guess here from what i've seen. There are too many factors involved.

I can't say. I haven't seen a wealth of footage of older Nak Muay vs. newer contenders to make an educated guess (even though I watch quite a bit) but as I said there are other reasons that the stylistic differences of a population (at individual scales this breaks down a bit because you have some variants that become outliers with styles that are hard to replicate) can vary when compared to another generation.

I wouldn't make such a broad assumption based on a single video.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I can't say. I haven't seen a wealth of footage of older Nak Muay vs. newer contenders to make an educated guess (even though I watch quite a bit) but as I said there are other reasons that the stylistic differences of a population (at individual scales this breaks down a bit because you have some variants that become outliers with styles that are hard to replicate) can vary when compared to another generation.

I wouldn't make such a broad assumption based on a single video.

That's true. I'm just speaking my honest opinion based on what i've seen though, so that's that :icon_chee

 

[sourdiesel209]

I dont see whats the issue of using positioning and footwork (old school principals) with a high guard... at least for pure MT... why open yourself to attacks (high kicks, etc.) with a low guard...

and the weight cant be too much on the back foot or you wont be able to check effectively..

 

[SummerStriker]

I dont see whats the issue of using positioning and footwork (old school principals) with a high guard... at least for pure MT... why open yourself to attacks (high kicks, etc.) with a low guard...

and the weight cant be too much on the back foot or you wont be able to check effectively..

How is that? If your weight is on the back foot, kicking the back leg is more dangerous because you come closer to the loaded rear hand. Kicking the front foot is harder because the weight is already off it.

 

[sourdiesel209]

How is that? If your weight is on the back foot, kicking the back leg is more dangerous because you come closer to the loaded rear hand. Kicking the front foot is harder because the weight is already off it.

yeah I meant to say if your too bladed... because you cant turn your leg in time... and being bladed is a consequence of having your weight on the back foot (altho you can still be square like a regular MT stance)

 

[SummerStriker]

yeah I meant to say if your too bladed... because you cant turn your leg in time... and being bladed is a consequence of having your weight on the back foot (altho you can still be square like a regular MT stance)

I got ya. People act like I'm talking crazy when I suggest pointing your feet straight but blading at the waist.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I got ya. People act like I'm talking crazy when I suggest pointing your feet straight but blading at the waist.

One thing i noticed is that when people talk about a "bladed" sort of stance it always lead to a "you cannot check leg kick properly in that stance" argument because to them, when you stand "bladed" your lead leg always have to twist inward. I facepalm everytime i read that. You can stand relatively bladed AND having your lead leg point forward to allow better checking. That old school muay thai video illustrates this point very well.

And also, being bladed have nothing to do with the weight distribution. It is simply body placement.

 

[SummerStriker]

One thing i noticed is that when people talk about a "bladed" sort of stance it always lead to a "you cannot check leg kick properly in that stance" argument because to them, when you stand "bladed" your lead leg always have to twist inward. I facepalm everytime i read that. You can stand relatively bladed AND having your lead leg point forward to allow better checking. That old school muay thai video illustrates this point very well.

And also, being bladed have nothing to do with the weight distribution. It is simply

Both feet forward, bladed at the waist, perfect balance 50/50 works great.

Side note Nuke, I did come over to your camp on standing up straight to reduce vulnerability to hooks and knees. I think it improved my speed noticeably to. Before I stood like in a crunch so that my elbows protected lower, by tucking my hips to keep the weight centered. I like the new way better.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Both feet forward, bladed at the waist, perfect balance 50/50 works great.

Side note Nuke, I did come over to your camp on standing up straight to reduce vulnerability to hooks and knees. I think it improved my speed noticeably to. Before I stood like in a crunch so that my elbows protected lower, by tucking my hips to keep the weight centered. I like the new way better.

Hah, glad it worked out for you. Correct principals always works.
Now only if someone can test your chin in the proper posture lol

 

[SummerStriker]

Hah, glad it worked out for you. Correct principals always works.
Now only if someone can test your chin in the proper posture lol

You have to understand about the group that broke my face, there was literally blood on the walls. Probably 5 people had to quit because of injuries from strikes they carried for years. I'm glad I survived it with the skills I got but it was stupid to go through.

I still do all my sparring in mma schools and think my chin is ok.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Damn. All for more reasons to learn correct techniques to prevents shit like that from happening.