Awesome, current talk on the ketogenic diet for metabolic therapy and cancer:

grndzro said:
Man that's some awesome news. This makes my day.
Gonna go look into HBO treatments asap.
Click to expand...

I find this stuff absolutely fascinating, both for what I observe ketosis doing to my body, and it helping folks I know personally who have other disorders, but the cancer potential is staggering, not to mention disorders like parkinsons/etc.

I want me some of those damn ketone esters D'Agostino talks about :)
 
immovablestone said:
I find this stuff absolutely fascinating, both for what I observe ketosis doing to my body, and it helping folks I know personally who have other disorders, but the cancer potential is staggering, not to mention disorders like parkinsons/etc.

I want me some of those damn ketone esters D'Agostino talks about :)
Click to expand...

hey, how does it affect your workout regimen? I was thinking about doing it during the weekend to test it out but I'd like to hear an account from someone who's had experience with it first-hand.
 
Daniel Tapia said:
hey, how does it affect your workout regimen? I was thinking about doing it during the weekend to test it out but I'd like to hear an account from someone who's had experience with it first-hand.
Click to expand...

Takes a couple weeks for you to adapt fully to Keto. It isn't a weekend deal.
Week one = starvation and flu. OMFG I AM GOING TO DIE!!!
Week 2 starting to feel progressively better.

About Keto and working out.
Keto is much more muscle sparing than traditional diet.
You need less protein in general and too much protein will kick you out of ketosis.
Recovery times will be longer but due to the muscle sparing effect of running on fats a few decent workouts a week work fine. Also important not to overdo workouts. You can always work out again the next day. Tearing up your muscles in Keto will require longer recovery.
 
thanks, bro. I really like the metabolic benefits of keto but I also rely heavily on glycolysis during my workouts so it seems I have to prepare a few days in keto and then go into it to see how I feel with my HIT workouts.
 
Daniel Tapia said:
hey, how does it affect your workout regimen? I was thinking about doing it during the weekend to test it out but I'd like to hear an account from someone who's had experience with it first-hand.
Click to expand...

It isn't something you could test "over the weekend" as it's a long term adaptation commitment to really get your metabolism shifted over. You're changing the majority of the fuel source for your brain, after all, no minor thing.

At first my training took a bit of a dive, as was expected. Though I didn't experience any of the "keto-flu" that people talk about as I had already been eating fairly clean for quite a while before starting, my top end strength took a hit (heavy lifts) and my endurance (competitive jujitsu) dropped. It took ~3 weeks initially to get it all back, but after a while I was right back to normal shouldering 250lb stones and surviving 5-6, 6 minute rounds grappling with absolute killers.

I don't train for size/aesthetics or raw lifting power at this point, but I firmly believe that I would be fine bodybuilding or powerlifting based on how I feel after, and while, I train. That said, my body fat is steadily going down and my strength is right where it should be.

Others mileage may vary, of course, and there are many dietary options available out there, but if you dial this in for your own personal physiology you can reap all the benefits you hear talked about. It takes experimenting on yourself and researching/reading/etc, but eventually you figure out your ballpark macros and can play around with it, tuning it, etc. I'm always in nutritional ketosis now, and I don't plan to go back.
 
thanks, man.

I'm going to buy a refrigerator soon and get on keto but I won't try it until I get one.
 
grndzro said:
Takes a couple weeks for you to adapt fully to Keto. It isn't a weekend deal.
Week one = starvation and flu. OMFG I AM GOING TO DIE!!!
Week 2 starting to feel progressively better.

About Keto and working out.
Keto is much more muscle sparing than traditional diet.
You need less protein in general and too much protein will kick you out of ketosis.
Recovery times will be longer but due to the muscle sparing effect of running on fats a few decent workouts a week work fine. Also important not to overdo workouts. You can always work out again the next day. Tearing up your muscles in Keto will require longer recovery.
Click to expand...

I thought about PM'ing you but maybe someone else could benefit from your advice too.

I'm three weeks out from a competition and doing a keto diet/cut but I tend to struggle when I'm in training.

Some people advocate having small amounts of carbs (25-50g) 30-60mins before training. Do you advise this too?

Kind of worried about my weight as I had 11lbs to lose when I started my cut but I don't want to get ragdolled all over the mats because I'm weak.
 
Some important points on training in keto:

Your intensity will never match non-keto levels, period. Your body is totally fine using fat as fuel, but you are essentially forced to skip fast glycolysis, which drastically reduces ATP synthesis past the PCr threshold. You can absolutely adjust to be fairly close to where you were running on glucose, but you will take a performance hit to intense activity.

There's nothing more inherently protein sparing about keto versus a traditional, well structured hypocaloric diet. The only time keto has ever been shown to be protein sparing is in contrast to a hypocaloric diet which had insufficient protein intake.

In general, training in keto is basically about maintaining what you had while you go balls out on cutting. It doesn't offer any performance benefits whatsoever, and has some insurmountable drawbacks. It can be a great tool for getting from A to B quickly and efficiently, but it has tradeoffs like any other diet.
 
Thanks, that was going to be my next question (whether performance improved after being on keto for a while).

I think what I'm going to have to do is have a small amount of carbs before I train, otherwise I may as well just go on the bike and skip actual training.

I'm trying to do things right, ie. MCT oil, making sure I get my multivitamins etc but the first week is a pain to say the least. This is only my second time doing a keto cut but last time I didn't have enough fat in my diet and felt like shit all the time.
 
Synapse said:
Some important points on training in keto:

Your intensity will never match non-keto levels, period. Your body is totally fine using fat as fuel, but you are essentially forced to skip fast glycolysis, which drastically reduces ATP synthesis past the PCr threshold. You can absolutely adjust to be fairly close to where you were running on glucose, but you will take a performance hit to intense activity.

There's nothing more inherently protein sparing about keto versus a traditional, well structured hypocaloric diet. The only time keto has ever been shown to be protein sparing is in contrast to a hypocaloric diet which had insufficient protein intake.

In general, training in keto is basically about maintaining what you had while you go balls out on cutting. It doesn't offer any performance benefits whatsoever, and has some insurmountable drawbacks. It can be a great tool for getting from A to B quickly and efficiently, but it has tradeoffs like any other diet.
Click to expand...

Keto is more muscle Sparing.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=119588841

Keto does not affect endurance.
http://www.examiner.com/article/fit...etes-can-benefit-from-high-fat-ketogenic-diet

Keto does not reduce strength
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34
 
grndzro said:
Keto is more muscle Sparing.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=119588841

Keto does not affect endurance.
http://www.examiner.com/article/fit...etes-can-benefit-from-high-fat-ketogenic-diet

Keto does not reduce strength
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34
Click to expand...

What, exactly, are you trying to show with those links?

The first link has nothing to do whatsoever with protein sparing. In fact, the first study explicitly states what I've already said - that you skip fast glyc on keto. Read: "and muscle glycogen utilization (P < 0.05) were lower during exercise after Fat-adapt"..."Fat-adapt also resulted in higher rates of whole body fat oxidation, reduced muscle glycogenolysis"

The second link is all about endurance on a low intensity scale, which is governed predominately by how well an athlete can oxidize fat. See: "I can now rely on much more fat, rather than glycogen, during prolonged exertion. This frees me up from needing to be constantly eating on long swims and bike rides." It makes no mention whatsoever about mid-high intensity activity, which categorically utilizes stored carbohydrate for fuel and WILL suffer without it.

The third link isn't even on a ketogenic diet. The authors may certainly use this term, but it is false. It's a low carb, moderate protein, moderate fat diet.
Go ahead and look at table 3; you'll see that the gymnasts were consuming 200g+/-18g of protein per day, and that it was 41%+/-6% of their daily calories, and most importantly they were allowed to eat ad libitum and were not in a caloric deficit. No kidding they aren't losing performance - they're just getting sugar from gluconeogenesis due to all that protein. This is the reason why an excess of protein actually keeps a person out of keto; they'll just utilize it for blood sugar, as in the case of these gymnasts. Study is highly flawed...if they wanted any kind of meaningful data, they would have regulated macros and caloric intake, ensured that the gymnasts were actually in keto and fully fat adapted, and above all else, they would have tested muscle glycogen stores before testing procedures.

Dude, I know you drink the keto kool-aid and that's fine, but it isn't a panacea and you really shouldn't make claims based off of studies you haven't reviewed. Those links are not implying what you think they are.
 
Judo Thai Boxer said:
Thanks, that was going to be my next question (whether performance improved after being on keto for a while).

I think what I'm going to have to do is have a small amount of carbs before I train, otherwise I may as well just go on the bike and skip actual training.

I'm trying to do things right, ie. MCT oil, making sure I get my multivitamins etc but the first week is a pain to say the least. This is only my second time doing a keto cut but last time I didn't have enough fat in my diet and felt like shit all the time.
Click to expand...

You can check out my previous post in this thread for anecdotal stuff about performance. You really have to fully adapt before you'll know whats up with your body and ketosis, it takes time and isn't a quick process.

My performance rolling has only improved, and my muscle endurance is awesome and improving steadily. This, with no change in my training routines, simply fully adapting to ketosis over a few month period.

Peter Attia has some great stuff about this, as do Volek and Phinney.
 
immovablestone said:
You can check out my previous post in this thread for anecdotal stuff about performance. You really have to fully adapt before you'll know whats up with your body and ketosis, it takes time and isn't a quick process.

My performance rolling has only improved, and my muscle endurance is awesome and improving steadily. This, with no change in my training routines, simply fully adapting to ketosis over a few month period.

Peter Attia has some great stuff about this, as do Volek and Phinney.
Click to expand...

I think the main problem is I don't want to do it for a few months. I just want to do it to cut weight. I don't see it as a long term thing because I like my beer and pizza haha
 
Synapse said:
What, exactly, are you trying to show with those links?

The first link has nothing to do whatsoever with protein sparing. In fact, the first study explicitly states what I've already said - that you skip fast glyc on keto. Read: "and muscle glycogen utilization (P < 0.05) were lower during exercise after Fat-adapt"..."Fat-adapt also resulted in higher rates of whole body fat oxidation, reduced muscle glycogenolysis"

The first link shows increased muscle triglyceride stores which inhibit muscle triglyceride lipolysis, which is the burning of muscle and skeletal fat that leads to the catabolization of muscle for energy.

The second link is all about endurance on a low intensity scale, which is governed predominately by how well an athlete can oxidize fat. See: "I can now rely on much more fat, rather than glycogen, during prolonged exertion. This frees me up from needing to be constantly eating on long swims and bike rides." It makes no mention whatsoever about mid-high intensity activity, which categorically utilizes stored carbohydrate for fuel and WILL suffer without it.

Cycling, Swimming, and Running are 3 of the most caloric intensive activities.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/calories-burned-during-exercise/
And he did very well in the standings.

The third link isn't even on a ketogenic diet. The authors may certainly use this term, but it is false. It's a low carb, moderate protein, moderate fat diet.
Go ahead and look at table 3; you'll see that the gymnasts were consuming 200g+/-18g of protein per day, and that it was 41%+/-6% of their daily calories, and most importantly they were allowed to eat ad libitum and were not in a caloric deficit. No kidding they aren't losing performance - they're just getting sugar from gluconeogenesis due to all that protein. This is the reason why an excess of protein actually keeps a person out of keto; they'll just utilize it for blood sugar, as in the case of these gymnasts. Study is highly flawed...if they wanted any kind of meaningful data, they would have regulated macros and caloric intake, ensured that the gymnasts were actually in keto and fully fat adapted, and above all else, they would have tested muscle glycogen stores before testing procedures.

Yes the third study is all about keto. Read Methods in the outline.
Diet and Measurements are also important in the study

Dude, I know you drink the keto kool-aid and that's fine, but it isn't a panacea and you really shouldn't make claims based off of studies you haven't reviewed. Those links are not implying what you think they are.
Click to expand...

No Kool aid here. Sorry.
 
The first link shows no such thing. It indicates that intramuscular FFA is higher amongst fat adapted; this is obvious, if you're consuming a gigantic amount of fat and practically no carbs, which do you think is going to be greater, [IM triglycerides] or [IM glycogen]? In no way does that indicate what you're saying it does. You really believe that a fat adapted body is somehow going to rely less on intramuscular fat stores? Absolutely not. Those increased stores are from the body stuffing in its current primary fuel source because it needs that fat on hand to burn - the complete opposite of what you seem to be suggesting. You are completely misinterpreting that research.

Emma-leigh nails it : "...I said that at high intensities the body is STILL going to be needing energy available through the anaerobic pathways and it WILL switch. FAT doesn't cut it when you need energy fast. So if enzyme concentrations are decreased due to fat adaption < your chances of shuttling a.a into the pathways *MAY* be higher..."

Hell, let's get one straight from Mr. Keto's, Lyle McDonald's mouth: "Additionally, there isn&#8217;t convincing evidence in my opinion that ketosis is crucial for the benefits of the diet. Yes, ketones are protein sparing but only when dietary protein intake is inadequate in the first place. When protein is set appropriately (e.g. 1-1.5 g/lb lean body mass as discussed in The Protein Book), the development of ketosis isn&#8217;t that critical to spare protein. Simply, protein is the most protein sparing nutrient and other things (e.g. ketones vs. carbohydrates) only matter if protein is inadequate in the first place."

The link you posted is entirely focused around marathon performance, where practically all energy comes from aerobic/oxidative sources. Aerobic systems are ideal for providing large amounts of ATP at a slow rate; they offer the greatest amount of ATP synthesis, at a much slower rate of production. Regardless of how much calories are burned, this is patently low intensity exercise.

Once again, mid to high intensity activity, the kind that is governed by PCr and fast glycolysis systems will suffer. This is not even remotely debatable - anything above the lactate threshold will, with 100% certainty, suffer without glycogen stores. This is exercise science 101 - aerobic systems cannot possibly match rate of ATP synthesis, it is a physiological impossibility. You really need to understand that amount of calories burned over time is completely separate from which energy system contributes to what activity.

I read the third study thoroughly, and everything I originally said holds water.

I'll be frank here - I'm not sure your ability to interpret research warrants the bold claims you're making. I can tell you with absolute certainty that keto has never been shown in any quality study to be more protein sparing than any other diet with equal dietary protein intake. I can also tell you that proper keto, with real keto ratios that cause a person to go into ketosis, will absolutely affect anaerobic endurance. I have to say that I believe the old addage "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" applies to you.
 
Synapse said:
The first link shows no such thing. It indicates that intramuscular FFA is higher amongst fat adapted; this is obvious, if you're consuming a gigantic amount of fat and practically no carbs, which do you think is going to be greater, [IM triglycerides] or [IM glycogen]? In no way does that indicate what you're saying it does. You really believe that a fat adapted body is somehow going to rely less on intramuscular fat stores? Absolutely not. Those increased stores are from the body stuffing in its current primary fuel source because it needs that fat on hand to burn - the complete opposite of what you seem to be suggesting. You are completely misinterpreting that research.

Emma-leigh nails it : "...I said that at high intensities the body is STILL going to be needing energy available through the anaerobic pathways and it WILL switch. FAT doesn't cut it when you need energy fast. So if enzyme concentrations are decreased due to fat adaption < your chances of shuttling a.a into the pathways *MAY* be higher..."

Hell, let's get one straight from Mr. Keto's, Lyle McDonald's mouth: "Additionally, there isn&#8217;t convincing evidence in my opinion that ketosis is crucial for the benefits of the diet. Yes, ketones are protein sparing but only when dietary protein intake is inadequate in the first place. When protein is set appropriately (e.g. 1-1.5 g/lb lean body mass as discussed in The Protein Book), the development of ketosis isn&#8217;t that critical to spare protein. Simply, protein is the most protein sparing nutrient and other things (e.g. ketones vs. carbohydrates) only matter if protein is inadequate in the first place."

The link you posted is entirely focused around marathon performance, where practically all energy comes from aerobic/oxidative sources. Aerobic systems are ideal for providing large amounts of ATP at a slow rate; they offer the greatest amount of ATP synthesis, at a much slower rate of production. Regardless of how much calories are burned, this is patently low intensity exercise.

Once again, mid to high intensity activity, the kind that is governed by PCr and fast glycolysis systems will suffer. This is not even remotely debatable - anything above the lactate threshold will, with 100% certainty, suffer without glycogen stores. This is exercise science 101 - aerobic systems cannot possibly match rate of ATP synthesis, it is a physiological impossibility. You really need to understand that amount of calories burned over time is completely separate from which energy system contributes to what activity.

I read the third study thoroughly, and everything I originally said holds water.

I'll be frank here - I'm not sure your ability to interpret research warrants the bold claims you're making. I can tell you with absolute certainty that keto has never been shown in any quality study to be more protein sparing than any other diet with equal dietary protein intake. I can also tell you that proper keto, with real keto ratios that cause a person to go into ketosis, will absolutely affect anaerobic endurance. I have to say that I believe the old addage "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" applies to you.
Click to expand...

Yea just poke your head in the sand.
Give me links to back up your claims.
Talk is cheap, back it up.

How much Glycogen do you think is in your muscles after a workout?
Very little
It's the fat/ketones that prevents more catabolization. not the carbs

Explain how keto athletes broke marathon records?

Or how there was no change in the Gymnasts strength/endurance after keto adaption

Explain increased VO2MAX when keto adapted.

We are not talking cancer diet. Full Ketosis is 30%Protein 70%Fats. Cancer diet is 10% protein 90% fats.
You are confusing partial Keto adaptation with fullblown Keto adaptation and protein restriction.
Keto is not compatible with Carbs. They can coexist but strength and endurance suffer as a consequence. The carb pathway trumps the fat pathway. both in cells and liver. If your cells are switched to burning carbs they CANNOT burn fat untill your liver tells them to do so.
The exception is minimal fat burning when exercising 60% for over 30 minutes or so. Sure you can burn fat while on a carb diet but it is much more effective in the absence of carbs. Once you eat carbs that stops in nothing flat. Cells start switching back to carbs much faster than they switch to burning fat.

All the people researching Keto are saying it is muscle sparing and I got 1 guy on the forums saying it's bullshit.
Ketones provide muscle with energy and prevent catabolization.

Equal dietary protein intake? You dont need as much Protein in Keto....you cant have as much protein in keto. What is the point in comparing apples to oranges? If you load up on protein too much it kicks you out of Keto.

Keto is also more lactic acid tolerant. With increased VO2MAX a strong case can be made that Keto adaptation is actually better for aerobic excercise.

What a nice insult.....links please

You are the one who is not informed. but keep clinging.
 
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